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  #181  
Old Posted May 15, 2010, 4:30 AM
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There are lots of people in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton area who could not care less what teams are playing as long as they had the chance to go to an NHL game. As it is, it's tough to get tickets to a Leafs game (and too expensive as well). Clearly the demand outstrips the supply in that region. Of course, the Leafs would like to keep it that way for obvious reasons.
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  #182  
Old Posted May 15, 2010, 5:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freeweed View Post
To be fair you'd know a lot better than I, with my handful of visits to Toronto, and I've never lived in eastern Ontario before.

But... what other franchises? I don't know that there's ever been anything close to the Leafs to even compare it to, so I'm not sure your statement is entirely fair. You may be right, but I just don't see what evidence there is for it. I'll defer to you because you likely know the city 100x better than I do, but what exactly makes you say that?
I'm referring to the piss-poor support and attendance for the Majors (OHL), Battalion (OHL), and Marlies (AHL).

From an article in the Windsor Star:

Quote:
Averaging 2,248 per game, the Majors ranked 19th in attendance this past season, just ahead of the Battalion.

Even during their run to the Eastern Conference final, the Majors couldn't draw a single crowd of 3,000, which is 50 per cent capacity in the 6,000-seat Hershey Centre.
From the Toronto Star:

Quote:
When the AHL playoffs began last month, you might have excused the Toronto Marlies if they'd hoped for a little more hubbub. As they took the ice for their first post-season game, after all, their NHL parent club, the Maple Leafs, was more than a week into its third annual early spring vacation.

If a local fan wanted to satiate a thirst for live-action shinny, then the only choice in the city limits was a trip to Ricoh Coliseum. Alas, exactly 1,063 loyal souls made up the announced crowd for the Marlies' playoff-opening win. John Mitchell, the third-year Marlies centreman from Waterloo, shook his head and sighed at the reality of his team's obscurity.

"We have our booster club, the faithful fans who always come out, and we're thankful for that," Mitchell said. "But some nights you can almost count every face and know a lot of the people in the stands."
By comparison, the Ottawa 67's drew an average of 7499 fans for a pretty crappy team this season, the Gatineau Olympiques drew just under 3000 (80% capacity), and the Ottawa Senators had 18300 (98.8% capacity). This is not even mentioning the many Junior A, B, and C teams in the Ottawa area that are well-supported. I'm not saying that Toronto is a bad place, but they just seem to be focused on top-tier professional sports of any kind rather than hockey in general.

Toronto is clearly a city that supports their NHL squad, but has very little interest in junior or minor league hockey. With their population they should be at least in the middle of the pack for all three franchises, but always seem to settle near the bottom. I won't believe Toronto is a hockey town until someone shows me evidence to prove it as all I'm seeing is hockey apathy at this point. Will they support another NHL franchise? Maybe, but it would be a real tragedy for places like Winnipeg and Quebec to lose out just to see empty seats at the centre of the universe.
     
     
  #183  
Old Posted May 15, 2010, 2:12 PM
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Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey View Post
Toronto is clearly a city that supports their NHL squad, but has very little interest in junior or minor league hockey. With their population they should be at least in the middle of the pack for all three franchises, but always seem to settle near the bottom. I won't believe Toronto is a hockey town until someone shows me evidence to prove it as all I'm seeing is hockey apathy at this point. Will they support another NHL franchise? Maybe, but it would be a real tragedy for places like Winnipeg and Quebec to lose out just to see empty seats at the centre of the universe.
Hard to say that they'd support another NHL franchise until they actually have the chance, don't you think? The NHL certainly seems to believe so based on their research (and their supposed $300 million expansion fee, hey that could fund the Coyotes for another decade!).

Agreed though, I'm much more in favour of spreading the game before making multi-team cities.
     
     
  #184  
Old Posted May 15, 2010, 3:54 PM
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Originally Posted by dennis View Post
But do they actually win the cup if there is no one there to see it.

If a tree falls... (you know.)


Just Kidding, Hamilton would be an excellent market. All you need is an upgrade of Copp's Coliseum and/or a new arena and a more careful ownership group.
The Mayor is actually supposed to announce renovations to Copps Coliseum before the election. Probably will happen after hockey season. Probably in the tune of $5 to $10 million. I think it's to tie with the 2015 Pan American Games, Copps will host indoor Volleyball.
     
     
  #185  
Old Posted May 17, 2010, 1:03 AM
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^That's good to hear. I hope it entails more corporate suites. (Unless there already have been some more added in the last little while).
     
     
  #186  
Old Posted May 22, 2010, 6:03 AM
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Hmmm, I wonder what the locals will think when either their taxes go up or the services get cut??

Quote:
Coyotes staying put in Phoenix

The Phoenix Coyotes will stay put for at least one more season.

According to a report by TSN.ca, the NHL and the city of Glendale have hashed out the terms of a deal that will see the Phoenix suburb cover up to $25-million (all currency U.S.) of the team’s operating losses next season if the league cannot find a buyer for the financially crippled franchise. The league was forced to buy the Coyotes in a U.S. Bankruptcy Court auction last October for $140-million.

Last week, Glendale council gave city manager Ed Beasley the authority to work out an agreement with the NHL, which has poured more than $170-million into the team, with a limit of $25-million.
....
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  #187  
Old Posted May 22, 2010, 7:34 AM
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looks like we missed it by a hair for this year....glendale seems to have bought some time...they now have until christmas to find an owner if this agreement becomes official.

"The agreement says the NHL already has a “bona fide viable purchaser” who would buy the team and move it for the 2011-12 season, pay a sale price that would enable the NHL to break even on its Coyotes investment, and possibly pay the NHL a relocation fee. "

so it appears that the deal to move the team to winnipeg is in place but glendale have 7 months to try and figure out a way to stop it....makes me sick that we are that close....they are willing to pay full price, cover this year's losses and throw in a relocation fee and still the NHL is giving them more time.....totally brutal.

the last shred of hope for this year is that it gets bogged down in the courts....the rumour is that the money might come from a sum the city has in escrow from the developer of the land adjacent to the arena...it was going to build a parking structure but might be redirected to the NHL...not sure if that will be considered money from general reveues or not.

i dont think the story is over....

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/Brahm1700/84065
     
     
  #188  
Old Posted May 22, 2010, 3:37 PM
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^ You can put that signature up now, the one year period begins at what ever point you decide to put that signature up, TV, but the signature must go up by the beginning of the 2010-2011 NHL season, which won't have a team in Winnipeg.
     
     
  #189  
Old Posted May 22, 2010, 8:20 PM
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How does Bettman still hold a job? Honestly.
     
     
  #190  
Old Posted May 23, 2010, 4:45 AM
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well all you doubters, i guess all those rumours all winter were not so false after all....the fire where all that smoke has been coming from.....finally official confirmation of the worst kept secret in winnipeg.


True North confirmed as owner in waiting
By: Gary Lawless

The NHL has told the City of Glendale to sell the Phoenix Coyotes to a buyer willing to keep them in Arizona by Dec. 31 or the team will be moved to Winnipeg.

True North Sports and Entertainment, a group led by Mark Chipman and David Thomson, have had the framework of a relocation deal in place with the league for some time, and is the third party the league is referring to in an agreement reached between the NHL and the city of Glendale on Friday.

A document sent by the league to the city of Glendale last week says the NHL has “a bona-fide offer from a viable purchaser who would relocate the hockey team to another market for the 2010-11 season and contemplates that the owners (the NHL) would break even on their investment in the team through the end of the 2009-10 NHL season as well as the NHL potentially receiving a relocation fee.”

True North had no comment when reached on Saturday, but the Free Press has learned they are the third party the league refers to in the agreement.

On Friday the City of Glendale reached an agreement with the league to cover operating costs up to US$25 million to keep the Coyotes in Jobing.com Arena for the 2010-11 NHL season.

The league has held discussions with the Ice Edge group and Jerry Reinsdorf, who owns the Chicago Bulls and Chicago Whitesox. Both say they want to keep the Coyotes in Phoenix.

It is believed Ice Edge isn’t interested in further talks without exclusivity that would make it the only prospective buyer to keep the team in Arizona.

"The owners currently have a bona-fide offer from a viable purchaser who would relocate the hockey team to another market for the 2010-11 season and contemplates that the owners [the NHL] would break even on their investment in the team through the end of the 2009-10 NHL season as well as the NHL potentially receiving a relocation fee..." the document obtained by the Globe reads.

The statements in the agreement mark the first published relocation deadline for the City of Glendale, and the first reference to a "bona-fide" owner waiting to purchase the team with the intent to relocate, since the Coyotes' fomer owner Jerry Moyes filed for bankruptcy on May 5, 2009.

While no direct mention of a specific ownership group was made in the agreement, CBC hockey analyst Don Cherry leveraged the Globe story during the Stanley Cup playoff broadcast of the Montreal/Philadelphia game Saturday afternoon to restate his belief that the Coyotes are on their way back to Winnipeg.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/bre...-94666154.html
     
     
  #191  
Old Posted May 23, 2010, 4:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feepa View Post
^ You can put that signature up now, the one year period begins at what ever point you decide to put that signature up, TV, but the signature must go up by the beginning of the 2010-2011 NHL season, which won't have a team in Winnipeg.
dont worry your pretty little head...if it happens, i will...you will do the same i assume.

i think its funny that you have been trashing winnipeg and its ability to support an NHL team for a long time on this board...you were so certain that it could never happen and have always been in your own arrogant way quick to tell us why...

well, we may not get a team this year (we still may) but all of the crap that you have been spewing has been proven to be completley false....winnipeg has what would be the richest ownership group in the NHL making an offer to purchase a team and move it here...they surely have studied the business case and disagree with everything you believe.

if the coyotes do manage to extend their deadline until christmas, i will gladly change my signature....it will serve as a reminder of all the bunk you and others have been so assuredly claiming for years now which has all been proven wrong...a team or not...it is official that one of the top businessmen in the world believes that winnipeg can be an NHL city, proving you completely wrong even without a successful relocation.

i would love a team back in winnipeg, but im quite happy with the knowledge that i dont have to argue with everyone about winnipeg's ability to be an NHL city anymore.....everyone who doubted it can stick their negativity....the only thing stopping it is a phoenix suburb selling their soul in an effort to keep a dead franchise in their white elephant arena....it can no longer be said that winnipeg's size, corporate support, arena, etc is the reason we dont have the NHL...

i may have been wrong because of extenuating circumstances....you have been wrong with your entire thesis about winnipeg and the NHL....to have you and others finally proven wrong is good enough for me.....


here is a reminder of a few of your comments that have now been proven to be totally false: (you seem to have changed your tune from the first one):



"This will be my last comment on this thread.
There will be no NHL in Winnipeg in 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013. Perhaps 2014 would be a good year."




"even a team coming back to Winnipeg is laughable. You'll need a whole new arena!!!!"



trueviking - multiple sources, including the mayor of Winnipeg are completely dismissing your rumours. You sure have gone silent. This isn't the case of 'if enough people talk about it - it will become true.' Care to reveal your sources, or forever be labeled as someone who makes stuff up.



"Things working against the NHL returning to Winnipeg anytime soon.
1) Lack of Corporate Sponsors (Sure, point out how many HQ's there are in Winnipeg - there is still the lack of sponsors back then, and there will be today.)
2) Arena size. The currently Arena Edmonton has is one of the smallest in the NHL, and it's still about 2000 people more than MTS Center can hold. MTS Center was purposely designed to be smaller than an NHL sized arena. This way it ensures the profitable Manitoba Moose no competition from an NHL team.
3) City Size - This might not be an such an issue, but when the NHL BOG looks at Winnipeg, it is one of the things they look at..




"The owner of the manitoba moose makes a killing filling the 15,000 seat arena and selling tickets at near nhl ticket prices for whl leagues players. If the arena could support an NHL team, and one comes, the support wont be there for the moose, and he loses out. Why doesn't he just buy an NHL franchaise? He wont make as much money, even if a bigger arena was built... paying those high salaries etc... Having a smaller arena prevents the NHL from coming in, and keeps the cash coming for the moose..."

Last edited by trueviking; May 23, 2010 at 5:04 AM.
     
     
  #192  
Old Posted May 23, 2010, 5:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
well all you doubters, i guess all those rumours all winter were not so false after all....the fire where all that smoke has been coming from.....finally official confirmation of the worst kept secret in winnipeg.


True North confirmed as owner in waiting
By: Gary Lawless

The NHL has told the City of Glendale to sell the Phoenix Coyotes to a buyer willing to keep them in Arizona by Dec. 31 or the team will be moved to Winnipeg.
Just to point out the obvious here, but the City of Glendale doesn't own the Phoenix Coyotes, the NHL does.
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  #193  
Old Posted May 23, 2010, 6:21 AM
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^good point.


Winnipeg remains in NHL picture
League tells city of Glendale, Ariz., to find buyer by Dec. 31 or team could move
Doug Harrison, CBC Sports

It's believed Canadian billionaire David Thomson, shown here in 2007, is ready to move the Coyotes to Winnipeg should the NHL fail to find an owner to keep the team in Phoenix.

Winnipeg hockey fans might be ringing in 2011 in style, with renewed hopes of an NHL team returning to the city.

The league, according to the Globe and Mail, has issued an ultimatum to the city of Glendale, Ariz., where the Phoenix Coyotes call home: find a buyer for the team by Dec. 31 or we will sell it to someone waiting to purchase and move the club.

Citing sources, Canadian cable sports network TSN also reported Saturday that prospective buyer Ice Edge Holdings — a group of North American businessmen fronted by Daryl Jones and Anthony LeBlanc — talked with Glendale city officials on Friday.

However, a source said Ice Edge isn't interested in further discussions without exclusivity that would make the group the only contender to keep the team in Arizona.

The city of Glendale on Friday reached an agreement with the NHL to cover operating costs up to $25 million US to keep the Coyotes in Jobing.com Arena for the 2010-11 season.

It's believed there is a clause in the agreement allowing the league to seek outside interest after Dec. 31.

The agreement, obtained by the Globe and Mail, also states Glendale can only keep the Coyotes after Dec. 31 if it finds a local buyer and the NHL has "not yet entered into an agreement to sell the team in a non-Glendale sale and the city identifies a prospective bona fide purchaser."

The NHL purchased the team out of bankruptcy last September with the intention of finding a buyer who would keep the franchise in Arizona.

The league has said repeatedly that if no local buyer can be found, it would look to find a buyer elsewhere.

Reinsdorf backed off
Chicago sports mogul Jerry Reinsdorf, who owns the NBA Bulls and Major League Baseball's White Sox, backed away from discussions to purchase the Coyotes from the NHL last month because the city would not meet his demand for more than $45 million a year in subsidies.

A group fronted by Toronto billionaire David Thomson and Mark Chipman — the CEO of True North Sports and Entertainment, who own and operate the MTS Centre in Winnipeg — is the only other buyer the NHL has spoken to about the Coyotes.

A source told the Globe and Mail the offer referred to in the Glendale-NHL agreement is from Thomson and Chipman.

To cover its $25-million commitment, the city of Glendale plans to create a taxing district, called a community-facilities district, to charge landowners near Jobing.com Arena and Westgate City Center, the mall adjacent to the arena.

Problem is, telling taxpayers to cover the Coyotes' losses might not stand up legally or politically as it's illegal in Arizona for municipal governments to subsidize private businesses.

If the necessary funds are not raised, the city is on the hook to make up the difference, according to the agreement.

Keeping a close eye on any developments is the Goldwater Institute, a taxpayers' watchdog organization in Phoenix that plans to sue the city over the deal once it is placed in writing.

The agreement recognizes the Goldwater Institute, stating if any part of the deal is deemed illegal, it can be severed with the remainder of the deal staying intact. The NHL and the city of Glendale also could negotiate a modification to the deal.

Sale to close by end of June
On May 11, city manager Ed Beasley and NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly told Glendale council that the sale of the Coyotes is expected to close by the end of June.

The Winnipeg Jets were moved to Arizona in 1996, leaving behind a dedicated fan base that has long lamented the loss of their beloved NHL team.

Renamed the Coyotes, the franchise has failed to turn a profit in the desert. The Phoenix Business Journal says the Coyotes have lost as much as $50 million a year since moving to Arizona.

Winnipeg hockey fans were hopeful the team would return and, according to media reports, the NHL had already created a tentative alternative schedule that includes a team based in Winnipeg.

In a recent interview with Hockey Night in Canada, NHL commissioner Gary Bettman rejected claims that an official offer had been made.

"What I will confirm is that over the years we've had an interest from Winnipeg, and I think that's great," said Bettman.

"But we're not going to address that interest by taking away a franchise from another club. If we can fix it in Phoenix, great — which is what we've been trying to do for the last year.

"If we can't fix it, then we'll look at our options," he said. "And obviously, Winnipeg is one of them."

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/stor...#ixzz0oifUW4Je
     
     
  #194  
Old Posted May 23, 2010, 10:45 AM
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I think Winnipeg and Phoenix should sue the NHL for psychological abuse.
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  #195  
Old Posted May 23, 2010, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Coyotes staying put in Phoenix

The Phoenix Coyotes will stay put for at least one more season.

According to a report by TSN.ca, the NHL and the city of Glendale have hashed out the terms of a deal that will see the Phoenix suburb cover up to $25-million (all currency U.S.) of the team’s operating losses next season if the league cannot find a buyer for the financially crippled franchise. The league was forced to buy the Coyotes in a U.S. Bankruptcy Court auction last October for $140-million.

Last week, Glendale council gave city manager Ed Beasley the authority to work out an agreement with the NHL, which has poured more than $170-million into the team, with a limit of $25-million.
I am amazed that Glendale would be willing to pay so much for a team that so few people in the Phoenix area seem to want. It is time for the NHL to move these teams to Canadian cities like Winnipeg that want them (and to cut salaries so that more people can afford the NHL). As far as the US goes, how about putting a team back in Hartford?
     
     
  #196  
Old Posted May 23, 2010, 4:42 PM
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I never said it could never happen. I said I don't see it happening in the immediate future. And I'm still a little pessimistic about the long term support of the franchise, if it were to ever happen again in Winnipeg. I have not changed my tune. I'm still sceptical of market size, arena size, and if Winnipeg will be able to pull in enough TV contract revenues to make up for the smaller arena.
I'm also not sure where you are getting this that true north would be the richest ownership group in the NHL... care to source that?

I'll say it now, and I'll say it again in October 2010. There is and will be no NHL franchise in Winnipeg in 2010-2011 season. NOW SHOW ME MONEY (signature). You didn't make a bet your not willing to keep ?
     
     
  #197  
Old Posted May 25, 2010, 4:11 AM
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when the NHL announces that they are staying in glendale for another year, i will gladly change my signature....despite the main stream media announcing every 3 weeks that they are staying, they are still a long way from accomplishing that and their timelines are running very short.

if you look beyond the headlines, they are nowhere near putting $25m in a bank account like the NHL demands....im not sure why the media doesnt wonder why they keep making the same announcement all the time and never ask why the last time they announced the team was saved it wasnt.

source as requested: http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/10/...mily_D47G.html
     
     
  #198  
Old Posted May 25, 2010, 9:27 PM
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I’m kind of late into this discussion, and haven’t really been following all the details, but one question I have is whether a move to Winnipeg (or Quebec) would require approval from the league’s board of governors? Or has this already taken place?
     
     
  #199  
Old Posted May 25, 2010, 9:33 PM
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Would require approval from the board of governors. Vote hasn't occured yet since the Coyotes is still in Glendale.
     
     
  #200  
Old Posted May 25, 2010, 10:50 PM
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Any idea if the board of governors would vote to move a team to Canada? I've heard that they weren't receptive to that, or did they suddenly wake up and smell the money?
     
     
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