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  #21  
Old Posted May 6, 2006, 2:31 AM
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Phoenix definately needs some tall towers.
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  #22  
Old Posted May 7, 2006, 7:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by combusean
Plinko it's behind that. It's a vacant lot now.
So not on Central...sucks...

At least if both were built they'd maybe hide the hideous monstrosity that is the Qwest Building...it may be the tallest building in Midtown, but it is decidedly blah.



Here's my 20 minute hack Photoshop rendering of what they'd look like in the skyline:



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  #23  
Old Posted May 7, 2006, 3:42 PM
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The Qwest building isn't *that bad* The cap is nice and there's a pleasant relief in the facade--plus it's pretty damn big. Too bad they had to use that atrocious brown granite/black window zebra striping that is the hallmark of Southwestern Mediocre ...

Nice shots of mid/downtown plinko--tho I think on the 2nd picture you painted them a bit short.

I should have been more specific, right now there's a parking lot on Thomas but behind that is the vacant lot.

The 3.26 parcel takes up both and it's a pretty decent size plot of land, but for the kind of density they're asking for--230 du/acre--that's over twice the 95.8 du/acre that's currently allowable in the High Rise Incentive district.

Height is also limited to 250', so they've got a big double whammy on their hands that can fuel substantial neighborhood opposition even tho variances can be granted for both.

It's a good project for midtown by a reputable developer. I can't complain on the architecture either--the twin towers will clearly define the Midtown skyline for years.
     
     
  #24  
Old Posted May 7, 2006, 5:12 PM
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I think the rendering is less a finished design than a massing concept. The attorney at the planning committee spoke of keeping the towers slim. I seriously doubt the City Council would block this project. It's TOD, after all, and even with increased vehicular traffic, this is half the point about building light rail. The attorney also said the FAA appeared to have no opinion here. Since this is nearly three miles from the flight paths at Sky Harbor, I can't imagine what concern they would have. Toll Brothers tried to get the owners of the strip mall on Central to sell or partner with them on this project, but they have a long-term ground lease, which they don't want to break. The NIMBYs on the planning committee raised all sorts of parochial objections to this project (shadows on houses a quarter mile away!) but their power is very, limited. I know a few of them and their primary concern appears to keeping central Phoenix safe for suburban lifestyles.

That said, this is a long shot. High-end luxury condos in central Phoenix are far from a sure thing, and there are upwards of 750 units here. 44 Monroe, for example, has sold less than 1/3 of their 202 units. The height is merely a provisional request - partly to keep ceiling heights flexible, and partly to increase the maxium zoning allowance. When the next real-estate cycle gains steam, this project will either have secured a place in line, or gone off to that great boneyard of Phoenix skyscraper dreams.
     
     
  #25  
Old Posted May 7, 2006, 10:44 PM
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The NIMBY's you speak of are the same type that derided the Trump proposal and additional height in the biltmore for almost a year.

If Toll Brothers weren't serious on this project, I doubt they'd be going that high and dense. If the VPC shot it down but it went to City Council and was approved, we might have a repeat of the mess in 2005, but on a different level. Rather than expanding "core center gradients" and whatnot, we're building superintensive structures at densities traditionally located in the downtown area.

I think Midtown has an identity crisis. The surrounding areas could take advantage of the fact that Downtown is generally limited to ~500 ft and approve taller projects like these out the door, or Midtown can develop in the perptual shadow of downtown with the fairly arbitrary 250' height limit.

I'm waiting for the time the City ask itself if it's true to its word about urban development. I wish we could have an open discussion on this sort of thing rather than the haphazard bickering-with-lawyers that's hitherto dominated the discussion. I'm tired of seeing urban developers painted as the evil incarnate in almost every zoning battle.

How is the Coronado neighborhood for this sort of thing soleri?
     
     
  #26  
Old Posted May 8, 2006, 2:35 AM
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^there was one citizen who asked to speak about this project - negatively, and for typically NIMBY reasons - and she was from Coronado. But there is not nearly the same kind of hostility to high rises in the adjoining neighborhoods (Willo, Coronado, Ashland Place, Alvarado, et al) as in the Camelback Corridor. I'm more sympathetic to the latter because they were promised certain guidelines by the city, which the city appeared to arbitrarily dump during Trump-a-palooza. The mid-city neigbhorhoods understand they live in a city (not all, for sure, but probably a majority) and high-rises have been a reality now for nearly 50 years. While traffic is a legitimate concern, they'll be the beneficiaries of light rail, too.

I'm not suggesting insincerity on the part of Toll Brothers. Clearly, they're developer heavyweights. But their entry into high-rise construction in this particular market is instructive. On the one hand, it's a testament to the general bullishness about Phoenix and the opportunities they see here. It's also a tentative step in a direction they can easily retreat from. The market is king here, and if TB sees other luxury projects selling out downtown, they'll be primed to make their move. If that evidence isn't forthcoming, they'll simply fold their hand. It's up to Phoenix, in other words, not Toll Brothers.

City officials want to see urban intensification in midtown, downtown, and by every light-rail stop. This is where Phoenix will grow in the future. The identity crisis you refer to is really the result of an incoherent strategy for growth. Phoenix can't be blamed for its addiction to horizontal growth given the cheapness of land, energy, and water. Those variables are rapidly changing for the worse, however. We're seeing a small but pronounced shift to urban infill projects as resources become more expensive.

As much as I want people to love cities, there's really no national mood or consensus for greater density. What can change, however, is the realization that commuting several hours a day is not a good idea if a gallon of gas is going to cost $5. In other words, people will come around. On the street where I live, a couple of Pet Smart executives recently bought a house. They moved in from Litchfield Park because of the commute. There are thousands of individual decisions like this which will transform Phoenix.
     
     
  #27  
Old Posted May 11, 2006, 4:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plinko
Nice job plinko

I do hope something like these get built... I love the slimness of the towers
but they don't look vary attractive in the rendering above. I can't wait to
see some better renderings before i judge them.
     
     
  #28  
Old Posted May 11, 2006, 6:15 AM
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That looks like someone just photoshopped them in.. not an actual rendering
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  #29  
Old Posted May 11, 2006, 2:59 PM
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^ That's exactly what is is. Plinko was kind enough to do that so we get some idea of how they will look in the skyline.

If I had one regret, I wish this proposal were further south, closer to downtown.

--don
     
     
  #30  
Old Posted May 11, 2006, 3:30 PM
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The fact that they're twins makes a somewhat lackluster design work.
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  #31  
Old Posted May 12, 2006, 2:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soleri
While traffic is a legitimate concern, they'll be the beneficiaries of light rail, too.
I have difficulties with people who use additional trafic as ammunition for shooting down projects like this. It's patently unfair to move to the center city--this thing is 3 blocks off Phoenix's main N/S drag--and still demand a leisurely suburban lifestyle with little traffic.

Yes, this is the thing we inadvertently asked for when we decided to tear up Central for light rail even tho TOD has more to say about setbacks and sidewalks than building height and intensity.

Whether or not this concept is fully understood by the masses in the adjoining neighborhoods will likely fuel many future zoning battles in this City, tho I suspect we're going to be dragged kicking and screaming into Real City tiers with this kind of development whether we like it or not.
     
     
  #32  
Old Posted May 12, 2006, 4:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soleri
On the street where I live, a couple of Pet Smart executives recently bought a house. They moved in from Litchfield Park because of the commute. There are thousands of individual decisions like this which will transform Phoenix.
Interesting...but if they are PetsMart execs don't they then commute OUT to I-17/Union Hills?
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  #33  
Old Posted May 12, 2006, 5:30 AM
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good shit, Phoenix could use some highrises
     
     
  #34  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2006, 10:04 AM
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Figured I'd give this one a nudge and see what the word was on this project. Coming upon the four month anniversery on the last time this thread was active.
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  #35  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2006, 10:55 AM
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Those are some ugly fuckin buildings.
     
     
  #36  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2006, 11:00 AM
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I think the renderings make them look shitty. I'd put good money down that they'll probably get redesigned, like so many projects in Vegas are.
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  #37  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2006, 7:32 PM
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Have the pictures been taken off this thread? For some reason, they're not loading when I open it. Any new word on this?
     
     
  #38  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2006, 11:05 PM
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It looks like the pics aren't hosted anymore. Can the someone repost them please?
     
     
  #39  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2007, 7:48 AM
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Has there been any updated info on these?
     
     
  #40  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2007, 8:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PHX_PD View Post


Has there been any updated info on these?
I've been wondering that myself, this has been a dead thread for quite some time.
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