Alexander Docks - Public Consult

[NK59]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ I'm not convinced that Point Douglas would have been a better location for IGF. It would have run into some of the same traffic bottleneck issues, and it would have turned a good chunk of the area into a "stadium zone" instead of a residential area that it has the potential to be.

The U of M is a good location for the stadium... the only problem is that the City somehow failed to realize that putting a large stadium there without any new transportation infrastructure whatsoever to support the influx of crowds was a recipe for trouble.

I would argue that downtown has plenty of parking and events at the MTS Centre do not cause traffic bottlenecks anywhere near what IGF does now. The residential area that it has the potential to be would have been spurred by the construction of a new Stadium in that location. The parcel from the Louise Bridge to Waterfront would have raised land values and the old warehouse owners would sell to developers and several condo buildings would already be built.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by NK59

I would argue that downtown has plenty of parking and events at the MTS Centre do not cause traffic bottlenecks anywhere near what IGF does now. The residential area that it has the potential to be would have been spurred by the construction of a new Stadium in that location. The parcel from the Louise Bridge to Waterfront would have raised land values and the old warehouse owners would sell to developers and several condo buildings would already be built.

Two things:

1) MTS Centre is perfectly located in the middle of the downtown grid. You'd never find a location like that for IGF which is much bigger.

2) MTS Centre holds less than half the capacity of IGF.

MTS Centre is a smaller venue in a perfect location in terms of traffic flow and transit access. There is really no space in that area for a football stadium. Putting it in PD would have led to a traffic situation no better than the current venue, and in all probability it would have been worse.

[Urban recluse]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ I'm not convinced that Point Douglas would have been a better location for IGF. It would have run into some of the same traffic bottleneck issues, and it would have turned a good chunk of the area into a "stadium zone" instead of a residential area that it has the potential to be.

The U of M is a good location for the stadium... the only problem is that the City somehow failed to realize that putting a large stadium there without any new transportation infrastructure whatsoever to support the influx of crowds was a recipe for trouble.

That is the problem: potential.

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

Hmmmm... don't all rivers change elevations continually - gravity is what keeps the water moving, right?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

It's only a sudden change in elevation that necessitates a lock (e.g. the Red drops 13 feet before Lister Rapids, where Lockport is now).

No, this is not true. First off, Lister Rapids is south of Rivercrest, at least 10 miles south of Lockport, and is not the only feature on the river that makes the locks necessary. Lister Rapids also is not a "change of elevation", it is a rock outcropping on the river bed, just one of many. There is also one in Parkdale where the River Rouge ran aground some years ago. These outcroppings are the reason for the locks.

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

There's no sudden drops on the Assininboine between the park and downtown Winnipeg. The river is already navigable (notice the old swing rail bridge at Rte. 90), just not in very low water in the summer. Even in summer, the only really shallow spots are around the St. James Bridge and Assiniboine Park (still quite a bit deeper than "ankle deep", however). It wouldn't take much to dredge a deeper channel, if money was no object.

The bottom is rock. Excavating rock is expensive. Ask Hydro.

The river is ankle deep during normal summer flows east of the park. How deep it is at the park is irrelevant.

If you think the Boine is navigible, go navigate it. You wouldn't be the first to try. Just bring several spare propellers. The is a reason there is a sign on the pipe bridge at Aubrey Street warning boaters not to proceed further.

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

The Assiniboine can be dredged. It's not solid rock on the bottom. In fact, in the late 1990s, a 420 meter stretch of the Assiniboine was dredged in Brandon (widened by 20 m to a depth of 2 m) to construct a waterski facility.

No point trying to explain this one.

[dennis]

Wasn't the red river navigable from Winnipeg to North Dakota before? If my knowledge of history is correct, steamboats like the Anson Northrup made this journey.

[Riverman]

Yes it was possible during times of high waters, although I'm sure they would run aground occasionally. They were very shallow draught as well with stern of side paddle wheels, no propellers.

[Authentic_City]

^Sorry Riverman, gotta disagree with what you're saying because it contradicts published reports and personal experience living and boating on the Assiniboine in the area just east of Assiniboine Park.

Back to the original point of the discussion, yeah, wouldn't it be great to extend boating to Assiniboine Park all season long and have some type of docking facility there. Too bad its not likely to happen.

And circling back to the Alexander Docks, I hope whatever redevelopment happens preserves its original function as a place to dock boats because Winnipeg is a river city and we should do more to encourage folks to use the water for pleasure and possibly even commuting via water taxi.

[Riverman]

I'm sure there are pools of deeper water in places and it is possible to run a small boat or Sea-Doo around locally. But can one travel from the park to the Forks at normal summer water levels? No. Except perhaps in a mountain-style jet boat. And that would be one wild ride!

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

And circling back to the Alexander Docks, I hope whatever redevelopment happens preserves its original function as a place to dock boats because Winnipeg is a river city and we should do more to encourage folks to use the water for pleasure and possibly even commuting via water taxi.

There is presently one volunteer club based marina in Winnipeg and one in West St. Paul. This is down from seven or more when I started using the river 30 years ago. They have a very difficult time maintaining docks due to the rapidly and continually changing river levels.

There used to be 15 docks on my street. Now there is one. There are no more docks at the Forks.

It is just not practical to have a marina development in Winnipeg. It is a nice thing to think about but not in practice.

[esquire]

^ That's a pity, I have vague memories of boating on the Red as a youngster in the 80s... it would be such a nice amenity to have, especially now that the city seems more appreciative of its waterways.

[jmt18325]

They manage to maintain docks in ocean areas where the level changes by 10s of feet a day. I'm sure we could figure it out.

[TimeFadesAway]

Originally Posted by jmt18325

They manage to maintain docks in ocean areas where the level changes by 10s of feet a day. I'm sure we could figure it out.

Why learn from others when we could have a half-assed 'Made in Manitoba' solution instead?

[drew]

Originally Posted by jmt18325

They manage to maintain docks in ocean areas where the level changes by 10s of feet a day. I'm sure we could figure it out.

We are just missing one key ingredient - $$$

Permanent, public docks designed to withstand the rigors of a Winnipeg winter freeze, spring thaw, ice, flooding, etc. would inherently be expensive. Not impossible, but expensive.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by TimeFadesAway

Why learn from others when we could have a half-assed 'Made in Manitoba' solution instead?

You know you're in for a terrible botchfest of a policy once someone utters those words.

[Authentic_City]

Originally Posted by drew

We are just missing one key ingredient - $$$

Permanent, public docks designed to withstand the rigors of a Winnipeg winter freeze, spring thaw, ice, flooding, etc. would inherently be expensive. Not impossible, but expensive.

Hence our current problems with the Alexander Docks. Despite (I assume) spending considerable money rehabbing the docks several years ago, they very quickly deteriorated to a point that they are unusable and unsafe.

[Kinguni]

I'd like to know what did navigate the Assiniboine and how far upstream. The old CN rail bridge by the St James bridge was a swing bridge. The rail bridge in Headingly was a swing bridge. Old Main St bridge and Osborne bridges were draw bridges. Same time I know how shallow the Assiniboine is by Route 90.

[1ajs]

sware i saw docs at the forks harbor today when i drove over queen elibeth way

[Authentic_City]

Originally Posted by Kinguni

I'd like to know what did navigate the Assiniboine and how far upstream. The old CN rail bridge by the St James bridge was a swing bridge. The rail bridge in Headingly was a swing bridge. Old Main St bridge and Osborne bridges were draw bridges. Same time I know how shallow the Assiniboine is by Route 90.

Steamboats went to Brandon and beyond to Fort Ellice near the Saskatchewan border in the 1870s and 1880s - when water levels allowed in the spring and early summer. There are a few interesting websites and books with some information about this era, but all accounts suggest steamboating on the Assiniboine ended with the railway in the late 1800s. However, the railway bridges in St James and Headingley were surely built much later, in the early 1900s I would think? I wonder why they were built as swing bridges?

Some interesting info here:

http://www.virtualmanitoba.com/FalseStarts/Alpha/p1.htm

[1ajs]

[BigG]

That area has so much potential. I'd love to see something like that in this lifetime. Riverfront areas, especially in the downtown should be improved and bolstered for everyone to enjoy. I like the pedestrian bridge that links to St. B.