Crime in Your City

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Whether or not people are actually unsafe in the core, seeing so many disheveled men wandering the streets and asking for spare change certainly has an effect on the perception of the safety of the downtown. Between this perception, and the COVID pandemic, downtown businesses are certainly suffering.

You hit the nail on the head................."perception".

The reality is that the crime rate in Canada is much lower than it was decades ago but today there are many more people who have mental illness wandering our streets due to the shut-down of the large institutions without the community resources to replace them. Decades ago a bank was a place to get money,not food but social assistance rates have not kept up to inflation. Rents and housing prices were vastly cheaper than they are today in relation to wages so people could afford a decent place to live.

When there is wide spread vagrancy, drug abuse, homeless camps, and people asking for change it gives the perception that an area is not safe and at best not very pleasant.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

You hit the nail on the head................."perception".

The reality is that the crime rate in Canada is much lower than it was decades ago but today there are many more people who have mental illness wandering our streets due to the shut-down of the large institutions without the community resources to replace them. Decades ago a bank was a place to get money,not food but social assistance rates have not kept up to inflation. Rents and housing prices were vastly cheaper than they are today in relation to wages so people could afford a decent place to live.

When there is wide spread vagrancy, drug abuse, homeless camps, and people asking for change it gives the perception that an area is not safe and at best not very pleasant.

All true. And while crime rates remain relatively low for the moment, eventually the growing avoidance of downtown or at least certain areas by most of the population can lead to a tipping point where crime can become way more common and much more serious.

At one point the reality inevitably catches up with the perception. Like a self fulfilling prophecy. "Nice wholesome people" avoid downtown because they think It is not safe. Eventually a downtown with none of these people living or at least going there will likely become less safe.

[niwell]

Petty crime certainly seems up around here - lots of reports of smashed car windows on my former neighbourhood facebook group, and several business owners I know have experienced (thankfully attempted) robberies. CERB ending probably plays a part, but a larger one may simply be the lesser amount of cash available now. I can't imagine panhandlers are able to get nearly as much as they were previously. In general the result of this is going to be an increase in inequality, as you have the camp that's working from home and if anything saving money (likely most of SSP), and the other with a significantly decreased income. Crime is too complex to boil down into singular causes, but inequality is definitely one of them.

I don't think it's really any less safe here than usual, and I'm not sure if Toronto will really suffer from an increasingly negative perception of downtown that smaller centres may. Though one interesting side effect I've seen in my area is the signal boosting of incidents that probably always happened, but now that people are stressed and at home with time on their hands and access to the internet... There were two attacks likely targeting women in my area (a serious crime to be sure) earlier in COVID, but it got to the point where people acted like there were roving bands of criminals waiting in the shadows off Roncesvalles and actual talks of forming vigilante groups! It crossed my mind I may get attacked by the latter while taking a walk late at night, especially since I usually wear mostly black anyways... Doesn't help that the TPS remained useless, as usual.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

There were two attacks likely targeting women in my area (a serious crime to be sure) earlier in COVID, but it got to the point where people acted like there were roving bands of criminals waiting in the shadows off Roncesvalles and actual talks of forming vigilante groups! It crossed my mind I may get attacked by the latter while taking a walk late at night, especially since I usually wear mostly black anyways... Doesn't help that the TPS remained useless, as usual.

This is not a criticism of you as my initial reaction would likely have been the same as yours.

But perhaps the idea that a strong collective reaction to something like that has something like that (whether it's vigilantism or something else) is not without merit. In that it sends a message that women just walking around getting attacked is unacceptable and we won't take it.

A lot of us, myself included, often brush these things off as "isolated incidents" or "stuff that happens in a big city" but where is the threshold for when it's no longer an isolated incident? And when we get there, is it possible to turn things back in the other direction?

Zero risk does not exist and you can't control the behaviour of all individuals, but I find a lot of things we brush off as "normal" are just us being lazy or washing our hands of the problem. Or perhaps in some cases people not wanting to labelled alt-right tough on crime reactionaries.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Zero risk does not exist and you can't control the behaviour of all individuals, but I find a lot of things we brush off as "normal" are just us being lazy or washing our hands of the problem. Or perhaps in some cases people not wanting to labelled alt-right tough on crime reactionaries.

Last winter when the liquor store looting mania was at its peak in Winnipeg, I was genuinely puzzled by the large number of woke types who were criticizing anti-theft measures aimed at thwarting liquor store thefts, which were starting to become violent in some cases. The implication was that the police were being racist.

If not wanting people to steal shit, whether it's mine or someone else's, is an alt-right tough on crime thing, then so be it, I can live with being an alt-right tough on crime guy.

[niwell]

^^These are some good points, and I have been thinking of them as well.

Some other outcomes from this were a collective effort to ensure people who felt uncomfortable walking home had escorts, and the pressure on the police from a large group of people so they could no longer ignore it. I'm generally in favour of a community based response, and in normal times it would likely have been healthier. Things are just a bit crazy right now and some of what was being floated came across more as revenge bloodlust than any sort of actual community safety initiative. I don't think there was really a political angle here, but FWIW I'd say most involved were pretty far on the left end of the spectrum.

It was fairly common where I was living in South Africa to have whatsapp groups for the block/local area where people generally looked out for one another and tried to be aware of things beyond just their own property. This has come about due to necessity (and includes an unfortunate private security component) but the basic concept isn't a bad one.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

^^These are some good points, and I have been thinking of them as well.

Some other outcomes from this were a collective effort to ensure people who felt uncomfortable walking home had escorts, and the pressure on the police from a large group of people so they could no longer ignore it. I'm generally in favour of a community based response, and in normal times it would likely have been healthier. Things are just a bit crazy right now and some of what was being floated came across more as revenge bloodlust than any sort of actual community safety initiative. I don't think there was really a political angle here, but FWIW I'd say most involved were pretty far on the left end of the spectrum.

It was fairly common where I was living in South Africa to have whatsapp groups for the block/local area where people generally looked out for one another and tried to be aware of things beyond just their own property. This has come about due to necessity (and includes an unfortunate private security component) but the basic concept isn't a bad one.

While they are not perfect, there is a reason why I prefer police by far: much more accountability for starters. The potential for profiling and other more tragic outcomes is far greater with private security and even worse with vigilantes.

Just look at that George Zimmerman-Trayvon Martin story in Florida.

"Other people", be they paid or volunteers, shouldn't be doing the job of the police. It's not hard to imagine "community security groups" in any neighbourhood including yours or mine, focusing a bit more strictly on minorities or people who dress a certain way. Not saying police don't sometimes do this too, but at least there is some oversight for their actions.

Now, the optimal set-up is of course an effective police that isn't corrupt or prejudiced. Not always easy to achieve.

But I can tell you one thing: an emasculated police that gets replaced by pseudo-cops in certain parts of your city, won't actually lead to a happier place for minorities.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But I can tell you one thing: an emasculated police that gets replaced by pseudo-cops in certain parts of your city, won't actually lead to a happier place for minorities.

An excellent rebuttal to the woke SJW types who want to completely defund and disband the nation's police forces...……..

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Last winter when the liquor store looting mania was at its peak in Winnipeg, I was genuinely puzzled by the large number of woke types who were criticizing anti-theft measures aimed at thwarting liquor store thefts, which were starting to become violent in some cases. The implication was that the police were being racist.

If not wanting people to steal shit, whether it's mine or someone else's, is an alt-right tough on crime thing, then so be it, I can live with being an alt-right tough on crime guy.

I have slowly moved over to this side as well.

Regarding the cries of racism, often it's not just about profiling. Though that's often a factor, and yes a legitimate complaint.

Another thing that highly woke people often bring up is "if we can't feel safe, then no one should feel safe".

Basically, that all of this is just desserts because it's bringing the feeling of insecurity that minorities live with to the majority for once.

I am not sure that aiming for the lowest possible common denominator is really the way to go (I am unsafe! You're unsafe! Everyone feels unsafe!) but it is what it is.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am not sure that aiming for the lowest possible common denominator is really the way to go (I am unsafe! You're unsafe! Everyone feels unsafe!) but it is what it is.

A non mathematical form of chaos theory...…..


…..and let's knock down a few statues while we're at it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

An excellent rebuttal to the woke SJW types who want to completely defund and disband the nation's police forces...……..

Well, if we're being honest relatively few people are asking that police forces be completely defunded and disbanded.

But one does wonder if any reduction in police resources will be beneficial to the populations they claim to want to help.

Consider a significant reduction of the police budget and perhaps even authority in a city like Chicago. If as one might expect crime goes up, then you'll probably see non-police community security measures pop up in areas like the affluent north side, where most residents are "non-minorities".

Under that scenario do you think it will be more or less pleasant for a young minority male coming back home from their late-night job at Subway that just happens to be on the north side?

And will the minority neighbourhood he comes back home to actually be safer with fewer cops around?

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by niwell

It was fairly common where I was living in South Africa to have whatsapp groups for the block/local area where people generally looked out for one another and tried to be aware of things beyond just their own property. This has come about due to necessity (and includes an unfortunate private security component) but the basic concept isn't a bad one.

I see that online in England as well, where at the local level in many communities the frequency and audaciousness of break-ins and vandalism is just mind-numbing. They have cameras everywhere so there is CCTV footage of just about everything. The police seem to take relatively minimal interest so there are a lot of neighbourhood alerts.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Andy6

I see that online in England as well, where at the local level in many communities the frequency and audaciousness of break-ins and vandalism is just mind-numbing. They have cameras everywhere so there is CCTV footage of just about everything. The police seem to take relatively minimal interest so there are a lot of neighbourhood alerts.

I am hearing the same from friends in France, Germany, Belgium, Italy, Sweden, Netherlands as well.

Oddly enough in almost every single country, just like in Canada the stats show that overall crime (violent and non-violent) tends to be down or at least the numbers are flat.

I wonder if the perception doesn't come from the fact that certain types of crimes are happening a lot more in certain areas, where such phenomena were very rare before?

[MolsonExport]

If a place has a "Can do" mentality, does this carry forward to criminal activities? And likewise, are places dominated by a "Can't do" mentality spared much crime, simply because would-be criminals are pessimistic?
Inquiring minds want to know.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

If a place has a "Can do" mentality, does this carry forward to criminal activities? And likewise, are places dominated by a "Can't do" mentality spared much crime, simply because would-be criminals are pessimistic?
Inquiring minds want to know.

Well, it would make sense that a highly innovative and enterprising criminal would choose an environment that would give him the greatest return on his nefarious investment. So, yes, I would think that sophisticated crime with potentially massive rewards would be more likely in Toronto, while in Sheet Harbour, petty theft from a self serve Legion poppy bin in order to buy a few beers would likely be more common.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am hearing the same from friends in France, Germany, Belgium, Italy, Sweden, Netherlands as well.

Oddly enough in almost every single country, just like in Canada the stats show that overall crime (violent and non-violent) tends to be down or at least the numbers are flat.

I wonder if the perception doesn't come from the fact that certain types of crimes are happening a lot more in certain areas, where such phenomena were very rare before?

I think the big change is that criminals use to worry about getting caught, and now regular people are getting worried about catching people and not being able to do a dam thing about it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

I think the big change is that criminals use to worry about getting caught, and now regular people are getting worried about catching people and not being able to do a dam thing about it.

It's very telling how on here and elsewhere you hear increasing numbers of people saying things like "our cops are useless" or "cops just let them do what they want", "cops stand by and do nothing"...

And we're Canada. One of the most pro-cop, cop-friendly places in the world.

One of our biggest national icons is a cop!

(I don't happen to think that Canadian cops are worse, more brutal, racist or corrupt today than they were at any point in the past.)

Another thing is that I think most western countries in terms of crime and civility are moving to a point where they are less like Mayberry and more like, say, Brazil. Or at least, more like the U.S. outside of exceptional places like the fictional Mayberry.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am hearing the same from friends in France, Germany, Belgium, Italy, Sweden, Netherlands as well.

French friends told us that when they were living in student flats in less chic parts of Paris the burglars would tap on their windows to see if they were home, and they would respond with a "oui" when they were (when they weren't, they, erm...didn't say anything).

Every night.

They never left their laptops or any other valuables in their apartment, and left the windows unlocked to prevent damage.

[esquire]

I suppose that as "informal justice methods" (i.e. cops busting heads) decline, it is not altogether surprising that criminals might feel emboldened to commit acts that are subject to minor punishment, if any, through the justice system. But does anyone want to go back to the days when Constable Jones would rough up petty thieves with his billy club? Especially now when the petty thief is likely to be carrying a gun?

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by rousseau

French friends told us that when they were living in student flats in less chic parts of Paris the burglars would tap on their windows to see if they were home, and they would respond with a "oui" when they were (when they weren't, they, erm...didn't say anything).

Every night.

They never left their laptops or any other valuables in their apartment, and left the windows unlocked to prevent damage.

This is similar to Vancouver. I have known many who do not lock their car doors as they know that people's ideas that criminals break into cars to steal them is not based upon fact. This is particularly true in low income and inner city areas.

Most don't break in to steal the cars but rather to steal items in the cars primarily to get money to support their drug addictions. Even a small amount of spare change will get you a smashed window. So much of our "petty crime" {not that there really is such a thing if you are on the receiving end of it} has become far more acute in recent years due to the surge in drug abuse and particularly highly addictive opioids.