Calgary Budget 2019-2022

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

They were $12 which shouldn't have been an issue for the vast majority of money.

How many dollars are we talking about in total?

I'm kinda split on this, as we shouldn't have barriers to the library, and the numbers we're able to serve are massive. Frankly speaking, cutting arts a pinch to ensure full free public access to libraries is acceptable in my view. Didn't the recent construction just come in under budget by like $10M?

Also, does someone have public library membership rates for across Canada?

[EDIT] quick search finds Edmonton is free, Waterloo is free, Vancouver is free, Toronto is free. Some charge if you are outside of the region, so Airdrie freeloaders, as an example. I guess we could nickle and dime our citizens on this one and be comfortable at being a second-rate city - but personally I'm not for that. I think it is sad that many who don't read are against free access, when it is free access that will get their kids out of illiteracy.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by suburbia

How many dollars are we talking about in total?

I'm kinda split on this, as we shouldn't have barriers to the library, and the numbers we're able to serve are massive. Frankly speaking, cutting arts a pinch to ensure full free public access to libraries is acceptable in my view. Didn't the recent construction just come in under budget by like $10M?

Also, does someone have public library membership rates for across Canada?

[EDIT] quick search finds Edmonton is free, Waterloo is free, Vancouver is free, Toronto is free. Some charge if you are outside of the region, so Airdrie freeloaders, as an example. I guess we could nickle and dime our citizens on this one and be comfortable at being a second-rate city - but personally I'm not for that. I think it is sad that many who don't read are against free access, when it is free access that will get their kids out of illiteracy.

The Calgary Public Library in the past always claimed they had one of the highest circulation numbers for materials in North America so they must have had a fair number of paying members. Let's say they could get 200K paying members. That would provide them with $2.4 million in additional revenue which wouldn't hurt. I'd like to see the money be used to buy access to more online materials as that's the method in which more and more people are making use of what the library has to offer. Low income people would still get free access. The membership fee isn't a huge source of revenue but it's significant enough to be useful so why give it up?

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

I'd like to see the money be used to buy access to more online materials as that's the method in which more and more people are making use of what the library has to offer.

And/Or to digitize existing archival materials. But yes I think there is a substantial portion of users where a $12 annual fee is nothing to pay. Even $12 is a huge value to access the entire library system for a year.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

The Calgary Public Library in the past always claimed they had one of the highest circulation numbers for materials in North America so they must have had a fair number of paying members. Let's say they could get 200K paying members. That would provide them with $2.4 million in additional revenue which wouldn't hurt. I'd like to see the money be used to buy access to more online materials as that's the method in which more and more people are making use of what the library has to offer. Low income people would still get free access. The membership fee isn't a huge source of revenue but it's significant enough to be useful so why give it up?

So you've ignored the point that there doesn't seem to be another jurisdiction worth a hill of beans charging for this, and charging library fees just further puts Calgary into the second or third tier of Canadian cities. That's sad.

Second, while the discussion started around deficits, here you're talking about increased spending. What does adding more online materials have to do with the city budget?

Third, do you have a handle on the on-line digital materials available via the library currently? They are staggering. What an amazing resource! Are there specific things that you've not seen available that you'd be okay advocating for increased revenue to get?

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

And/Or to digitize existing archival materials.

Digitizing existing archival materials is a massive expense. It is also precisely the type of "case for support" I'd think the Library Foundation could pitch prospective donors for. I don't see this as urgent in any sort of way, so pushing it during a period of economic challenge as a way to justify increasing fees makes little sense to me. Do it when there is money to do it, not now.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by suburbia

So you've ignored the point that there doesn't seem to be another jurisdiction worth a hill of beans charging for this, and charging library fees just further puts Calgary into the second or third tier of Canadian cities. That's sad.

Second, while the discussion started around deficits, here you're talking about increased spending. What does adding more online materials have to do with the city budget?

Third, do you have a handle on the on-line digital materials available via the library currently? They are staggering. What an amazing resource! Are there specific things that you've not seen available that you'd be okay advocating for increased revenue to get?

We shouldn't care what the rest of the country does. We didn't in the past and it resulted in better decision making. Now under Nenshi and Notley they want us to be carbon copies of other places. The last thing we should be doing is copying places such as Vancouver.

Your second point makes no sense. If adding more materials has nothing to do with the city budget then neither does any part of the library budget. Also, where did I say I was against targeted increased spending? I'm sure most people are the same way. Wanting overall spending to decrease does not mean I want each line item to decrease.

I'm well aware of what the library has to offer in terms of digital resources. If you actually used the system you'd know what areas they are weak in. Stop referring to talking points provided by the city and stop insulting my intelligence with your lectures.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by suburbia

Digitizing existing archival materials is a massive expense. It is also precisely the type of "case for support" I'd think the Library Foundation could pitch prospective donors for. I don't see this as urgent in any sort of way, so pushing it during a period of economic challenge as a way to justify increasing fees makes little sense to me. Do it when there is money to do it, not now.

I don't think he was advocating for the digitizing of all existing material at this time. Decisions need to be made on a case-by-case basis and sometimes can't be delayed. There's plenty of academic research on this topic and I doubt any of it advocates for doing nothing until you can do it all.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

I'm well aware of what the library has to offer in terms of digital resources. If you actually used the system you'd know what areas they are weak in.

Burden of proof is with you as you brought up the idea of enhancing the online offering.

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Stop referring to talking points provided by the city and stop insulting my intelligence with your lectures.

If you think that was a lecture, university must have been real brain racking for you. Oh wait. Sorry, didn't mean to assume.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Decisions need to be made on a case-by-case basis and sometimes can't be delayed.

What specific example of digitizing Calgary Public Library archives fall into this "can't be delayed" category in your opinion?

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by suburbia

How many dollars are we talking about in total?

I'm kinda split on this, as we shouldn't have barriers to the library, and the numbers we're able to serve are massive. Frankly speaking, cutting arts a pinch to ensure full free public access to libraries is acceptable in my view. Didn't the recent construction just come in under budget by like $10M?

Also, does someone have public library membership rates for across Canada?

[EDIT] quick search finds Edmonton is free, Waterloo is free, Vancouver is free, Toronto is free. Some charge if you are outside of the region, so Airdrie freeloaders, as an example. I guess we could nickle and dime our citizens on this one and be comfortable at being a second-rate city - but personally I'm not for that. I think it is sad that many who don't read are against free access, when it is free access that will get their kids out of illiteracy.

Since when did the definition of being a second rate city depend on whether we charge for a library card or not? You're using ridiculous arguments here - 'free access that will get their kids out of illiteracy'. Since when are kids here illiterate? And if they are how would a library help since they can't read? We have these things called 'schools' to teach kids to read.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by milomilo

if they are [illiterate] how would a library help since they can't read?

Milomilo gets the award for best anti-library quote.

[milomilo]

Do you actually live in an alternate reality? A kid that can't read (in your reality there are significant numbers of these in Calgary, in the real world there aren't) is not going to learn much from a library, he will learn a lot more from teachers in schools.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by milomilo

A kid that can't read is not going to learn much from a library

Second place

[suburbia]

The most frustrating issue with debate about things like the Calgary budget and what a library is, is that most people have no clue what services are actually provided. And it is not like these things are hidden in the back corner somewhere. You literally have people going off the rails pushing their views against something, basing their point of view on false information that doesn't take much to clarify on the Internet.

Early Literacy Programs
https://calgarylibrary.ca/early-literacy-programs/

0 to 12 months:
Baby Rhyme Time

6 to 23 months:
Pop 'n Tot Time

13 to 23 months:
Baby Bookworms

Two to three years:
ABC: You and Me!
1-2-3: Count With Me!

Two to five years:
Drop-in Family Storytime

Four to five years:
Words and Wiggles

Grow a reader
https://calgarylibrary.ca/grow-a-reader/

Early learning centres
https://calgarylibrary.ca/early-learning-centres/

[milomilo]

So you're not going to respond rationally then? Are you the illiterate child you speak of?

[Rollerstud98]

My initial learning was done in the comfort of my own home. After that through school. Yes I utilized the Airdrie Public Library heavily when younger signing books out every couple weeks while growing up but also utilized the school libraries even more heavily.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Rollerstud98

My initial learning was done in the comfort of my own home. After that through school. Yes I utilized the Airdrie Public Library heavily when younger signing books out every couple weeks while growing up but also utilized the school libraries even more heavily.

Did you teach yourself to read or did your parents teach you? And thanks for bringing it to Suburbia's attention that Airdrie has a library. I'll add in that Airdrie has as a ton of services and things to do. They need and deserve their own hospital which would also be great for Calgarians who live in the far north reaches of the city.

[Rollerstud98]

My parents played a big role, I’m sure my grandparents helped a lot as well. We’ve been fighting for a long time to try and get a hospital here. Also we’re hoping to get a college here as well. Those are 2 things that would help this city set itself apart.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Rollerstud98

My parents played a big role, I’m sure my grandparents helped a lot as well. We’ve been fighting for a long time to try and get a hospital here. Also we’re hoping to get a college here as well. Those are 2 things that would help this city set itself apart.

A college would be a great idea but a research university would be even better to help diversify the economy. A region with this many people should have a lot more than two universities, especially when those two are nothing great.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

A college would be a great idea but a research university would be even better to help diversify the economy. A region with this many people should have a lot more than two universities, especially when those two are nothing great.

Are you proposing a new research university be funded from Calgary's 2019-2022 Budget?