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  #681  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2019, 2:16 PM
goodgrowth goodgrowth is offline
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Great so VOCM didn't bother to look for the new renders and just decided to stick the old ones up on the article...

Edit: oh ffs they just changed it to the new renders. nevermind lol
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  #682  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2019, 7:28 PM
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Great so VOCM didn't bother to look for the new renders and just decided to stick the old ones up on the article...

Edit: oh ffs they just changed it to the new renders. nevermind lol
The comments on VOCM FB are worth a read. It's really unbelievable that anything gets built in St. John's with so much negativity.
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  #683  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2019, 10:03 PM
jjavman jjavman is offline
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The comments on VOCM FB are worth a read. It's really unbelievable that anything gets built in St. John's with so much negativity.
Ridiculous isn't it?

The folk who are ever against these proposals, are a very vocal sort. They would St. John's be forever, in the early 20th century.
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  #684  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2019, 1:17 PM
jjavman jjavman is offline
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AP Hotel Proposal

Here we go again. Forget trying to build anything in East Downtown.
That's the message I would get as a developer.

https://vocm.com/2019/12/12/height-d...ntown-meeting/
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  #685  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2019, 2:20 PM
statbass statbass is offline
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Originally Posted by jjavman View Post
Here we go again. Forget trying to build anything in East Downtown.
That's the message I would get as a developer.

https://vocm.com/2019/12/12/height-d...ntown-meeting/
I do agree with you in that regard - for some reason people think new cannot be integrated with old. It works well in cities much older than St. John's. Personally, I think this design looks fine. Of course you can always counter with the argument of "Look what's there now"... LOL!

One point I feel is important to touch on is hotel vacancy rates. The article notes vacancy rates are 55% - that does seem low. However, this is vacancy rates for the entire Avalon not just Northeast Avalon. Also, not sure what that entails. Does it include all lodging ( e.g. B&Bs, etc.) or just full size hotels? Is that an overall annual rate or is it seasonally adjusted? May be this metric doesn't accurately reflect demand in the SJ region, or may be it does... who knows? Just my thought.
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  #686  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2019, 2:30 PM
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J_Murphy J_Murphy is offline
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Originally Posted by statbass View Post

One point I feel is important to touch on is hotel vacancy rates. The article notes vacancy rates are 55% - that does seem low. However, this is vacancy rates for the entire Avalon not just Northeast Avalon. Also, not sure what that entails. Does it include all lodging ( e.g. B&Bs, etc.) or just full size hotels? Is that an overall annual rate or is it seasonally adjusted? May be this metric doesn't accurately reflect demand in the SJ region, or may be it does... who knows? Just my thought.
Those vacancy rates are also from 2017. Since then, Alt Hotel, Sandman, Best Western Plus, Holiday Inn Express and Hilton Garden Inn have opened.
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  #687  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2019, 5:06 PM
statbass statbass is offline
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Originally Posted by J_Murphy View Post
Those vacancy rates are also from 2017. Since then, Alt Hotel, Sandman, Best Western Plus, Holiday Inn Express and Hilton Garden Inn have opened.
Would that give you an impression vacancy rates could be lower than the stated 55%?
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  #688  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2019, 9:02 PM
jjavman jjavman is offline
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I do agree with you in that regard - for some reason people think new cannot be integrated with old. It works well in cities much older than St. John's. Personally, I think this design looks fine. Of course you can always counter with the argument of "Look what's there now"... LOL!

One point I feel is important to touch on is hotel vacancy rates. The article notes vacancy rates are 55% - that does seem low. However, this is vacancy rates for the entire Avalon not just Northeast Avalon. Also, not sure what that entails. Does it include all lodging ( e.g. B&Bs, etc.) or just full size hotels? Is that an overall annual rate or is it seasonally adjusted? May be this metric doesn't accurately reflect demand in the SJ region, or may be it does... who knows? Just my thought.
I don't see the downside to the city if the vacancy rises? Presumably the developer has done a business case or they wouldn't proceed. If the vacancy rate suffers because of new hotels; doesn't it mean that shoddy, run down facilities are the ones that suffer?

Even if a new AP Hotel went under due to vacancy (unlikely), it would still have covered up the POS that's currently there. They're not gonna tear it down again. From the cities point of view, it should be a win-win.

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  #689  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2019, 1:55 AM
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Here we go again. Forget trying to build anything in East Downtown.
That's the message I would get as a developer.

https://vocm.com/2019/12/12/height-d...ntown-meeting/
This CBC report is a bit less negative than the earlier one on VOCM.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfo...ting-1.5393689
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  #690  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2019, 3:35 PM
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Letter to City Clerk

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Originally Posted by jjavman View Post
This CBC report is a bit less negative than the earlier one on VOCM.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfo...ting-1.5393689
There is an email portal on the city's web page if anyone would like to have input into the AP Hotel proposal.

http://stjohns.ca/public-notice/publ...ts-bairds-cove

I've sent a letter in support, and asked that it be read into the meeting.
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  #691  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2019, 5:30 PM
thevan thevan is offline
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Originally Posted by jjavman View Post
Here we go again. Forget trying to build anything in East Downtown.
That's the message I would get as a developer.

https://vocm.com/2019/12/12/height-d...ntown-meeting/
A couple quotes from the CBC article that I broadly agree with (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfo...ng-1.5393689):

"Just, hotels are for visitors; they're not for people that live here, generally speaking, and I think that the Atlantic Place building itself and the parking garage were, in its incarnation, one of the biggest mistakes ever made in terms of development in the downtown."

"It's long been my view that we live in a bowl and there's a ridge right at the top of it — it always confounded me why nobody would ever look at this situation and be like, 'Oh, I'm gonna build something tall on the ridge instead of down in front of everybody else.'"

I'm curious how you'd disagree with this sentiment, or maybe see it as irrelevant or unimportant? Hotels _are_ mostly for visitors, not for locals. They do nothing for the neighbourhood they're built in.

Think of what it's like having the place next to you as a fulltime AirBnB and you get the idea.

Same goes for all of these high-rises. Why must they be built on the waterfront? Why not on "the ridge"? Downtown is _tiny_; why do we need more buildings that take up an entire block? This isn't even an old versus new debate, or progress vs heritage, it's about having a built environment that's actually enjoyable to walk around in.
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  #692  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2019, 1:10 PM
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St. John's hotels look for better days in tough economy

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Originally Posted by statbass View Post
Would that give you an impression vacancy rates could be lower than the stated 55%?
https://www.thetelegram.com/business...conomy-391469/

Quote:
Occupancy rates
According to Duke, average occupancy rates for hotels in St. John's generally hovered in the mid-to-high 60-percentile range and even sometimes 70 per cent and above in recent years. In 2018, it reached 53.3 per cent. She cautioned this figure may be somewhat misleading, as there is increased capacity now, and hotel room sales from 2017 to 2018 experienced a growth of approximately two per cent.

"There was moderate growth in hotel rooms sold, but what happens when you have over-capacity, your rate drops," she said. "The revenues are just not there because the hotel rates are much lower than they used to be."

John Steele is the president of Steele Hotels, which owns JAG and Capital Hotel on Kenmount Road.

"Part of it is we think we'll build a better mousetrap," Steele said regarding the JAG expansion, which would also involve a large multi-purpose space for live music performances and other events. "We think we'll have a good, unique product. We've had great success with (JAG) in the market, and there's a demand for it."


That said, Steele admits it would be inaccurate to suggest the St. John's hotel market is robust.

"Where we've noticed the big pressure in this market is in that mid-level market," he said, noting there's lot of new entrants competing for the same customers in the city
This article speaks about occupancy rates instead of vacancy rates. Which I assume is just the opposite.
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  #693  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2020, 4:11 AM
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AP Hotel

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  #694  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2020, 2:56 PM
jjavman jjavman is offline
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Anybody that's interested in seeing this proceed, should comment under the article on the CBC page. The Nimbys are out in full force underneath the article, and politicians take notice to that forum.
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  #695  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 1:05 PM
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Anybody that's interested in seeing this proceed, should comment under the article on the CBC page. The Nimbys are out in full force underneath the article, and politicians take notice to that forum.
Good to see some movement on this develop, although there's no surprise the NIMBY's are out in full force on this one. I didn't read the comments on CBC - I have a pact with myself to stop reading that as it used to create undue stress! I sure hope politicians use a more objective process outside of news website comments section. If that's the case we're all doomed! LOL.

Do NIMBY's have much of a leg to stand on? The development is nowhere near any residential area. I know there were a few reports floating around regarding vacancy/non-vacancy rates. One would assume those were taken into consideration at this point.

Anywho, I feel we're definitely in the winter doldrums now - not much development activity on the go. With all this snow I think everyone wants to hibernate until April anyways.
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  #696  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 2:17 PM
jjavman jjavman is offline
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Good to see some movement on this develop, although there's no surprise the NIMBY's are out in full force on this one. I didn't read the comments on CBC - I have a pact with myself to stop reading that as it used to create undue stress! I sure hope politicians use a more objective process outside of news website comments section. If that's the case we're all doomed! LOL.

Do NIMBY's have much of a leg to stand on? The development is nowhere near any residential area. I know there were a few reports floating around regarding vacancy/non-vacancy rates. One would assume those were taken into consideration at this point.

Anywho, I feel we're definitely in the winter doldrums now - not much development activity on the go. With all this snow I think everyone wants to hibernate until April anyways.
I always am amused by those against citing vacancy/non-vacancy rates in support of their view against a development.

The only ones on the hook for vacancies, are the businesses themselves, not the city or residents.

Also, the brand new hotels aren't the ones that will suffer; it would be the rundown, outdated facilities past their shelf life, that will be the last to be visited.

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  #697  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2020, 12:46 PM
statbass statbass is offline
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I always am amused by those against citing vacancy/non-vacancy rates in support of their view against a development.

The only ones on the hook for vacancies, are the businesses themselves, not the city or residents.

Also, the brand new hotels aren't the ones that will suffer; it would be the rundown, outdated facilities past their shelf life, that will be the last to be visited.

Speaking about grasping for straws, check out this letter written to the Telegram

Telegram
Jan 31, 2019

Quote:

We have a heritage harbourfront which we need to protect from buildings which will block its viewing and which do not enhance the heritage of our waterfront.

If not, pretty soon it will become a shamble of odd buildings with no harbour view for anyone not in those buildings. Heritage is not a new hotel with a strange architectural look that overshoots even our height restrictions.

Our heritage vistas and areas will be lost in this city if we do not start maintaining and protecting them like the jewels they are.

Our waterfront needs stricter rules for what can be built around it. We need to protect what we have left of our heritage there.
I understand the importance of preserving heritage. But in this instance... where's the heritage? This is an ugly, decrepit parking garage. I'm sorry, but there's absolutely no argument here. At the very least the argument is fallacious.

Putting European cities aside, go to New York, Montreal, Boston, etc. There are tons of examples where modern and heritage architecture blend together in harmony. I swear that some people will never be satisfied unless DT looks straight out of 1895.
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  #698  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2020, 3:29 PM
goodgrowth goodgrowth is offline
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Originally Posted by statbass View Post
Speaking about grasping for straws, check out this letter written to the Telegram

Telegram
Jan 31, 2019



I understand the importance of preserving heritage. But in this instance... where's the heritage? This is an ugly, decrepit parking garage. I'm sorry, but there's absolutely no argument here. At the very least the argument is fallacious.

Putting European cities aside, go to New York, Montreal, Boston, etc. There are tons of examples where modern and heritage architecture blend together in harmony. I swear that some people will never be satisfied unless DT looks straight out of 1895.
My question is where were the heritage people in the 70's when some of these ugly buildings were put up...?

Anyway I have already sort of given up on DT. The DT/Harbour area just needs to be finally designated as a heritage/entertainment district and there needs to be a second modern core/high-density zone designated somewhere else in the city that can actually build density. Think of Old Montreal section in Montreal...that can be the harbour area.

Because you cannot have both a modern city center that is trying to expand with density and heritage competing in a small unique topographical area. IT'S JUST NOT GONNA WORK.

People wonder why there is no density, well it's because the core is completely hemmed in and can't grow like in most cities.

Last edited by goodgrowth; Jan 31, 2020 at 3:45 PM.
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  #699  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2020, 5:27 PM
jjavman jjavman is offline
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My question is where were the heritage people in the 70's when some of these ugly buildings were put up...?

Anyway I have already sort of given up on DT. The DT/Harbour area just needs to be finally designated as a heritage/entertainment district and there needs to be a second modern core/high-density zone designated somewhere else in the city that can actually build density. Think of Old Montreal section in Montreal...that can be the harbour area.

Because you cannot have both a modern city center that is trying to expand with density and heritage competing in a small unique topographical area. IT'S JUST NOT GONNA WORK.

People wonder why there is no density, well it's because the core is completely hemmed in and can't grow like in most cities.
The shame of it is, the so called "heritage areas" are an amalgam of early 20th century rundown buildings mixed with lacklustre 60s/70s construction for the most part.

No real attempt to expand on a real heritage area such as Old Montreal that you mention. If the naysayers were actually interested in "heritage", they would be pursuing such endeavours as below:

Bring back the cobblestones on Water street, or at least paving stones. Turn it into a pedestrian mall with art and plant life, a fountain for God sakes like other historic cities. Cape May, NJ comes to mind. Water St. Mall could extend as far East as the War Memorial to take in Harbour Park. Waldegrave & Harbour intersection to the West.

Have New Gower/Duckworth & Harbour Drive, Prescott & Waldegrave, as the ring around this space. Meter parking hasn't been practical there for some time anyway. We also have 2 parking garages in downtown. Make a board walk around the accessible areas of the harbour. Bring back some finger piers. Obviously Ports Canada would have to buy in, but that's a political thing.

St. John's downtown has so much untapped potential. Just consistently impeding modern development is not promoting St. John's heritage.

Last edited by jjavman; Feb 9, 2020 at 4:52 PM.
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  #700  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2020, 6:27 PM
goodgrowth goodgrowth is offline
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The shame of it is, the so called "heritage areas" are an amalgam of early 20th century rundown buildings mixed with lacklustre 60s/70s construction for the most part.

No real attempt to expand on a real heritage area such as Old Montreal that you mention. If the naysayers were actually interested in "heritage", they would be pursuing such endeavours as below:

Bring back the cobblestones on Water street, or at least paving stones. Turn it into a pedestrian mall with art and plant life, like other historic cities. Cape May, NJ comes to mind. Water St. Mall could extend as far East as the War Memorial to take in Harbour Park. Waldegrave & Harbour intersection to the West.

Have New Gower/Duckworth & Harbour Drive, Prescott & Waldegrave, as the ring around this space. Meter parking hasn't been practical there for some time anyway. We also have 2 parking garages in downtown. Make a board walk around the accessible areas of the harbour. Bring back some finger piers. Obviously Ports Canada would have to buy in, but that's a political thing.

St. John's downtown has so much untapped potential. Just consistently impeding modern development is not promoting St. John's heritage.
I agree but I don't think these things happen until there is a serious discussion and vision of how the harbour "bowl" area fits into St. John's and the overall metro area heading into the future. Because as of now you are just going to continue to get competing interests and stagnation.

I am pro development but I also think that specific area's long terms prospect are much more valuable as a heritage/tourist/entertainment district than to try to further it as as a modern city center/core with office buildings and parking garages.
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