VIA Rail network developments

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Wow! The Havelock Sub is about 150km (or 93 miles). At 10 mph, about 9:20 of that is actually running. If VIA were to pay to have it upgraded from Class 1 to Class 5 track, CP could run freight trains at 80 mph (passenger trains can run at 95 mph) and save about 8 hours labour each way. This reduction would also mean they could do a same day round trip, potentially saving lodging costs.

From this, I am sure the CPR would be as happy as a clam to sell the Havelock Sub to VIA, even if it means running at night.

Not only that, but the vastly improved trip times could even generate them more customers. It's a win-win for CP.

Originally Posted by acottawa

But if ROW of way sharing is possible why is this project even necessary? Why not ROW share the CP mainline (which provides a much more direct route and a much larger population) or even the CN mainline?

Because unlike the Havelock sub, the CP and CN mainlines are too busy with freight trains and not controlled by Via. Running on freight mainlines is the whole reason Via can't achieve the scheduling, speeds and on time performance that it needs to increase the relevance of rail. Plus the CP mainline doesn't even go through Ottawa, which is essential to the HFR business case. The proposed route has the benefit of running through all three major cities on a single line, which makes the route more efficient.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I wish they'd defer Montreal-Quebec to Phase 2 and use that billion to improve Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal. Toronto-Ottawa at the projected 3:15 would be pretty decent and competitive with air for a lot of travelers. Ottawa-Montreal at 1:33 is decent. But Toronto-Montreal at 4:45 ain't great. Sure, it's better than every Toronto-Montreal train today. But you don't save much over the bus. Additional investment on Ottawa-Montreal has the advantage of getting that Ottawa-Montreal to more commutable times and helping cut Toronto-Montreal times as well. Even cutting 15-20 mins here has a huge impact.

I think you are putting too much weight on travel times. A quoted travel time on the schedule is meaningless if the train is frequently more than 15 minutes late. It also doesn't help if the schedule doesn't match yours and you end up having to wait over an hour for the next train.

Fixing those issues should be VIA's first priority. Once they are resolved, then they can work on gradually reducing travel times. This can be done gradually by grade separating crossings and increasing the amount of double track.

Sensationalism sells. The good thing here is that nobody really knows much beyond transit nerds like us. And VIA has only just started to put out very public promotion. So if the cost does come in higher from the project team, there's probably some margin for error.

True. Only us transit nerds know the original price quoted. For the average person it is irrelevant. Ballooning costs only becomes an issue once the project is given a green light, construction has started and they have reached the point of no return.

I'm also hoping that the provinces step up to the plate. And pitch in for the portions where HFR will run on commuter tracks.

That is the is another factor. Metrolinx stands to benefit from a Toronto to Peterborough line, so maybe they will be willing to split the cost. There might be upgrades that aren't feasible for either to do on their own, but together it becomes justifiable.

They could cut Kingston service to 6-8 trains a day and still have higher ridership than today if they actually optimize timings for Kingston itself. The times from Kingston's perspective are atrocious. And reliability sucks too. Originating and terminating service at Kingston removes cascading delays caused by thru service.

True. Even if some trains do run through Kingston, they can add even more buffer time to the schedule since it won't be used for end to end travel.

Kingston should be an exurb to Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal based on its location. But current service is not commutable for them.

Kingston is approximately 175 km from Ottawa, 250 km from Toronto, and 300 km from Montreal. Of those three, only Toronto is large enough to possibly consider Kingston an exurb. For Ottawa, I would consider Smiths Falls (about 70 km) and possibly Brockville (about 115 km) to be exubs, but not Kingston. I just can't see any reason why anyone would commute regularly from Kingston to Ottawa or Montreal. An occasional day trip is another matter though.

Just look at Kingston-Ottawa for example. First train out of Kingston at 0911. Reaches Ottawa at 1130. Last train from Ottawa to Kingston at 1826. With 10 trains between Kingston and Ottawa, one would think the times would be better suited to day trips and exurban commuters. Montreal is similarly crap for Kingston. Toronto is marginally better. But not by much. The plan to hub at Kingston will do wonders for them, even if they end up with fewer trains.

The first train out of Kingston for Toronto is at 5:32 AM and it arrives at 8:25 AM. The seems reasonable to me. The only issue I see is it is a 2 hour wait for the next train. Looking at the schedule, many of the trains are bunched together and then there are long gaps without another train. Here is the Kingston to Toronto schedule for today as an example (I highlighted the departure intervals under an hour in red):

Train	Dep	Arr	Dep Interval

#651	5:32	8:25	

#41	7:34	10:02	2:02

#43	9:13	11:25	1:39

#61	9:29	11:46	0:16

#51	10:36	12:52	1:07

#63	11:43	14:07	1:07

#45	12:26	14:48	0:43

#53	13:39	16:03	1:13

#65	13:45	16:17	0:06

#47	14:45	17:15	1:00

#67	16:08	18:30	1:23

#645	16:35	19:05	0:27

#55	17:38	19:57	1:03

#69	19:02	21:15	1:24

#647	19:20	21:45	0:18

#59	20:41	23:07	1:21

#669	21:15	23:33	0:34

I'm surprised that VIA doesn't publish a Lakeshore schedule that shows all of the trains between Kingston (or even Brockville) and Toronto.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Good Day.

The new HFR is indeed proposed TO - OTT - MTL on new or renewed VIA-owned lines, inc. through Peterborough.

Trunorth00 is referencing VIA's proposed new Lakeshore / River service,
(since the HFR is abandoning the Lakeshore route, and the cities thereupon,)
hubbed out of Kingston with revamped services and schedules such as to optimize and improve service (esp. dependability)
to all the lakeshore and river cities in both east to MTL and west to TO as much as possible in a continuing CN/CP-trackage scenario.
The biggest impact is Kingston through to TO, and therein lies most of the discussion.

EnJoy!

Since a picture is worth a thosand words, here is a map of what VIA is proposing (from VIA's HFR page)



Interesting that old maps showed them using a new route (on CPR's tracks) into Montreal from the west, but now it shows them using the existing route.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Since a picture is worth a thosand words, here is a map of what VIA is proposing (from VIA's HFR page)

........

Interesting that old maps showed them using a new route (on CPR's tracks) into Montreal from the west, but now it shows them using the existing route.

Good Day.

Thx for the image.

Joy!

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

If Brockville is an "exurb" of Ottawa, then so is Cornwall. It's about the same distance as Brockville is from downtown Ottawa, but it's never felt like it's been in Ottawa's public consciousness.

When I think of exurbs of Ottawa (on the Ontario side at least), I think of Arnprior, Pakenham, Carleton Place, Perth, Smiths Falls, Merrickville, Kemptville, Russell, Embrun, Limoges, Casselman, and Clarence-Rockland. Some of these such as Arnprior, Limoges, Russell, Embrun, and Clarence-Rockland have shown decent growth, and they would be my best guesses as to the future exurbs of Ottawa that will matter the most in terms of providing transit and connections to Ottawa.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Temporal sharing might work on the Havelock sub (where I think the main customer is Quaker Oats), but it is hard to see how it would work on the mainline track through Toronto, Montreal and between Glen Tay and Smith Falls.

If you read back, the reference to Temporal sharing was in reference to the Havelock Sub.

When talking about mainline track Urban_Sky said:

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

ROW-sharing does not necessarily require track-sharing. Track-sharing is inevitable on the Kingston Subdivision, even after partially triple-tracking, but different situations may allow different solutions.

But if ROW of way sharing is possible why is this project even necessary? Why not ROW share the CP mainline (which provides a much more direct route and a much larger population) or even the CN mainline?

ROW sharing without track sharing requires adding additional tracks to the ROW (if Temporal sharing isn't feasible). There is a huge difference between ROW sharing the approximately 16 km in Toronto, and 25 km between Glen Tay and Smith Falls and sharing the entire Bellville Sub, which is over 300km long, especially considering it runs through many, urban areas.

Montreal is a completely different kettle of fish. On the island, west of Côte St-Luc, there is quadruple track, between CN and CP, so hopefully some sort of ROW sharing deal could be worked out without having to build any new tracks. East of Côte St-Luc, it is a bit messier, so some sort of ROW sharing will be necessary. Worst case, they track share that approximately 15 km for now, and fix it at a later date. This is going to be a problem no matter which route they choose between the cities.

Because CDP released the information as soon as the project was announced. They didn't spend 5 years making outlandish public claims with nothing in the public record.

They had money to do the preliminary work in secret. VIA had to beg and plead for the $3 million needed to do a preliminary study. I guess they could have secretly asked for the money from the feds (and maybe they did at first) but they probably needed a bit of public pressure to get them to cough up some money.

Ok, then my main questions would be:

Why can't Via release its external engineering studies the way CDP, Metrolinx, Amtrak, and other public transportation companies do?

Name a project where Metrolinx, Amtrak, and other public transportation companies have released preliminary studies prior to the final studies having been completed.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

If Brockville is an "exurb" of Ottawa, then so is Cornwall. It's about the same distance as Brockville is from downtown Ottawa, but it's never felt like it's been in Ottawa's public consciousness.

When I think of exurbs of Ottawa (on the Ontario side at least), I think of Arnprior, Pakenham, Carleton Place, Perth, Smiths Falls, Merrickville, Kemptville, Russell, Embrun, Limoges, Casselman, and Clarence-Rockland. Some of these such as Arnprior, Limoges, Russell, Embrun, and Clarence-Rockland have shown decent growth, and they would be my best guesses as to the future exurbs of Ottawa that will matter the most in terms of providing transit and connections to Ottawa.

My thoughts exactly. Brockville would be a stretch at best, so there is no way Kingston could be considered an exurb of Ottawa.

Having said that, I do know people who commute from Cornwall to Ottawa, which I think is crazy.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

If Brockville is an "exurb" of Ottawa, then so is Cornwall. It's about the same distance as Brockville is from downtown Ottawa, but it's never felt like it's been in Ottawa's public consciousness.

When I think of exurbs of Ottawa (on the Ontario side at least), I think of Arnprior, Pakenham, Carleton Place, Perth, Smiths Falls, Merrickville, Kemptville, Russell, Embrun, Limoges, Casselman, and Clarence-Rockland. Some of these such as Arnprior, Limoges, Russell, Embrun, and Clarence-Rockland have shown decent growth, and they would be my best guesses as to the future exurbs of Ottawa that will matter the most in terms of providing transit and connections to Ottawa.

What's irritating is that once upon a time, there were railway links to every single one of those exurbs but they no longer exist.

The former NYCC line from Ottawa to Cornwall (which passed through both Russell and Embrun) would have been a perfect commuter line if it still existed.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Mister F

Not only that, but the vastly improved trip times could even generate them more customers. It's a win-win for CP.

Maybe, but shipments by rail aren't usually time sensitive, but cost sensitive. It would make it a bit cheaper, but probably not all that much overall.

Because unlike the Havelock sub, the CP and CN mainlines are too busy with freight trains and not controlled by Via. Running on freight mainlines is the whole reason Via can't achieve the scheduling, speeds and on time performance that it needs to increase the relevance of rail. Plus the CP mainline doesn't even go through Ottawa, which is essential to the HFR business case. The proposed route has the benefit of running through all three major cities on a single line, which makes the route more efficient.

It does go to Smiths Falls, where they could switch to to VIA's track to Ottawa. The bigger issue is that the Belleville Sub is mostly single track and double tracking it would be prohibitively expensive since it has many more (and busier) crossings than the Havelock sub. The section through Belleville is particularly problematic.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by CityTech

What's irritating is that once upon a time, there were railway links to every single one of those exurbs but they no longer exist.

The former NYCC line from Ottawa to Cornwall (which passed through both Russell and Embrun) would have been a perfect commuter line if it still existed.

Here is a map of the past and present railway lines in and around Ottawa.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

You have yet to provide me with proof of this statement so where is it?

I already provided this link a few days ago. (there is an english version, but it doesn't actually link to documents).

https://www.cdpqinfra.com/fr/documentation

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Mister F

Because unlike the Havelock sub, the CP and CN mainlines are too busy with freight trains and not controlled by Via. Running on freight mainlines is the whole reason Via can't achieve the scheduling, speeds and on time performance that it needs to increase the relevance of rail. Plus the CP mainline doesn't even go through Ottawa, which is essential to the HFR business case. The proposed route has the benefit of running through all three major cities on a single line, which makes the route more efficient.

Yes, but the Havelock sub is only part of the route. There are significant chunks where the assumed (because accurate maps are still a state secret) route intersects with mainline tracks. I'm not following the logic that the overlapping mainline track is no problem through Toronto, Montreal, and along a chunk of Eastern Ontario, but it is a super big problem elsewhere (i.e. if CP will let Via build a parallel track along its mainline for large segments, why not elsewhere?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

ROW sharing without track sharing requires adding additional tracks to the ROW (if Temporal sharing isn't feasible). There is a huge difference between ROW sharing the approximately 16 km in Toronto, and 25 km between Glen Tay and Smith Falls and sharing the entire Bellville Sub, which is over 300km long, especially considering it runs through many, urban areas.

Montreal is a completely different kettle of fish. On the island, west of Côte St-Luc, there is quadruple track, between CN and CP, so hopefully some sort of ROW sharing deal could be worked out without having to build any new tracks. East of Côte St-Luc, it is a bit messier, so some sort of ROW sharing will be necessary. Worst case, they track share that approximately 15 km for now, and fix it at a later date. This is going to be a problem no matter which route they choose between the cities.



They had money to do the preliminary work in secret. VIA had to beg and plead for the $3 million needed to do a preliminary study. I guess they could have secretly asked for the money from the feds (and maybe they did at first) but they probably needed a bit of public pressure to get them to cough up some money.




Name a project where Metrolinx, Amtrak, and other public transportation companies have released preliminary studies prior to the final studies having been completed.

The most difficult part of the Belleville sub is through Toronto. If a solution that is feasible for CP is available there then adding track elsewhere on the line is less complicated then that. If CP is willing to give up part of their ROW on an exclusive basis for 25km then it precludes future use of the whole ROW (i.e. theoretically they wouldn't be able to quadruple track the sub, for example).

Metrolinx has all kinds of feasibility studies for planned and potential projects on its website that are released long before the Environmental Assessment phase. The Peterborough study is the most obvious, but there is also a study for a Bowmanville extension (using the CP corridor) the preliminary plans for a freight bypass using the 407 corridor (since abandoned). Amtrack has all sorts of studies for all sorts of things that are nowhere near the final phase of planning. Most public transportation agencies do their planning in public, except VIA, which thinks it is in the nuclear weapons business, not in the transportation business.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The most difficult part of the Belleville sub is through Toronto. If a solution that is feasible for CP is available there then adding track elsewhere on the line is less complicated then that. If CP is willing to give up part of their ROW on an exclusive basis for 25km then it precludes future use of the whole ROW (i.e. theoretically they wouldn't be able to quadruple track the sub, for example).

Metrolinx has all kinds of feasibility studies for planned and potential projects on its website that are released long before the Environmental Assessment phase. The Peterborough study is the most obvious, but there is also a study for a Bowmanville extension (using the CP corridor) the preliminary plans for a freight bypass using the 407 corridor (since abandoned). Amtrack has all sorts of studies for all sorts of things that are nowhere near the final phase of planning. Most public transportation agencies do their planning in public, except VIA, which thinks it is in the nuclear weapons business, not in the transportation business.

It has probably been told by the government of the day to keep everything on the QT. This way the government can not be put on the hook if Via comes up with a good idea that raises public expectations. The government also likes to announce things when it is politically useful. The problem with this is nothing ever gets done. Look at how many times Via as said they will re-introduce additional frequencies on the north mainline between Toronto and London via Kitchener and nothing ever happens. You can never believe anything until it has happened.

As a result Via can do little long range planning.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Yes, but the Havelock sub is only part of the route. There are significant chunks where the assumed (because accurate maps are still a state secret) route intersects with mainline tracks. I'm not following the logic that the overlapping mainline track is no problem through Toronto, Montreal, and along a chunk of Eastern Ontario, but it is a super big problem elsewhere (i.e. if CP will let Via build a parallel track along its mainline for large segments, why not elsewhere?

You really don't see the difference between 25 km of track and 500 km of track? If Via doesn't get the whole route figured out then CP doesn't get it's Havelock sub upgraded for free. You don't think that Via has thought of how to get into Toronto and Montreal? What do you think they've been studying all this time? There are multiple options to get into those cities, and while I'm not as familiar with Montreal, in the case of Toronto some of those options don't involve using any of the freight tracks at all.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Mister F

You really don't see the difference between 25 km of track and 500 km of track? If Via doesn't get the whole route figured out then CP doesn't get it's Havelock sub upgraded for free. You don't think that Via has thought of how to get into Toronto and Montreal? What do you think they've been studying all this time? There are multiple options to get into those cities, and while I'm not as familiar with Montreal, in the case of Toronto some of those options don't involve using any of the freight tracks at all.

Well, more like 300 km. This is all speculative because of the Via secrecy, but if Via's plan is to build track in the CP ROW then it makes little difference (to CP) the distance this occurs. The CP ROW is probably 50 feet. If VIA needs to buy/lease, 20 feet (as an example) then that prevents future expansion on the entire sub (unless CP wanted to create a bottleneck).

Yes, I agree there are other potential options or configurations that would not involve the CP ROW (although many would be more expensive). It is also possible that VIA is just planning to use the actual freight line, which would negatively affect timing (because they have to wait for CP permission to enter those 25 km segments).

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The most difficult part of the Belleville sub is through Toronto. If a solution that is feasible for CP is available there then adding track elsewhere on the line is less complicated then that. If CP is willing to give up part of their ROW on an exclusive basis for 25km then it precludes future use of the whole ROW (i.e. theoretically they wouldn't be able to quadruple track the sub, for example).

Surprisingly, the part through Toronto wouldn't be that difficult.

West of the Toronto Yard (and junction with the Havelock sub), the Belleville sub has double track (it is actually quintuple (5) track for the first 1.7 km) and and it looks like the ROW was designed so that it could easily be tipple tracked (I only see one bridge that only supports double track, but it looks like the footings are there to make it wider).

East of the yard the Belleville sub is only single track. Since double track has more than double the capacity of single track (especially with long freight trains), and they only have 3 trains a week on the Havelock sub (the only other branch), CP has a significant amount of excess capacity west of the branch.

It doesn't take much imagination to realize that VIA could buy one of the two tracks (not the ROW) between the Toronto Yard and the Don Branch from CP and then Temporally share it with them.

If that wasn't good enough, that the 16 km could be triple tracked and two of the three tracks could be Temporally shared with CP and the other one could be dedicated to CP.

Another option of course would be to cut over to GO's Uxbridge Sub. north of Markham. That would require bit (maybe 6 km?) of greenfield track and would require upgrades on the Uxbridge Sub, but would totally avoid conflicts on the Belleville sub should CP not want to play ball.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Well, more like 300 km.

Agreed. To be exact, the CPR Belleville sub from Smiths Falls to the the junction with the Don Branch is 337 km (209.5 miles). ref. The distance to the Toronto Yard from Smiths Falls is 317 km (197 miles).

This is all speculative because of the Via secrecy, but if Via's plan is to build track in the CP ROW then it makes little difference (to CP) the distance this occurs. The CP ROW is probably 50 feet. If VIA needs to buy/lease, 20 feet (as an example) then that prevents future expansion on the entire sub (unless CP wanted to create a bottleneck).

It may make little difference to CP, but the cost difference to VIA would be massive. As I said in my previous post, east of the Toronto Yard, the Belleville is single track. To share it with CP, it would have to be at least double tracked if not triple tracked. This is heavily developed land with many crossings that have high traffic volumes. Many of the crossings are grade separated for single track. Widening them for double or triple track would be very expensive.

The Havelock Sub has far fewer crossings and they have much lower traffic volumes. This will result in a much smaller number of grade separations required. They could probably (a guess on my part) grade separate all crossings on it for less than only widening the existing grade separations on the Belleville Sub.

The other factor in this is by using the Havelock Sub, they can probably split some of the costs with Metrolinx. They would probably be much less interested in using the Belleville Sub. though.

The other risk of using the Belleville is it is CP's weak link in their route to Montreal (they have double track east of Smiths Falls and west of the Toronto Yard). Unless VIA gets an iron clad contract, CP could do like CN and let VIA pay to upgrade the track and then use it to increase the number of trains they can run and squeeze VIA out.

Yes, I agree there are other potential options or configurations that would not involve the CP ROW (although many would be more expensive).

Agreed. This is a good reason for VIA to not release the results of the studies. They may have been told that CP is willing to work out a deal, but a price has not been set. If VIA publishes the costs of the second cheapest option, CP knows what VIA's upper price limit would be and has a stronger negotiating position. Without that information being public, CP might settle for a lower price.

It is also possible that VIA is just planning to use the actual freight line, which would negatively affect timing (because they have to wait for CP permission to enter those 25 km segments).

That is also possible, but given that CP has a significant amount of excess capacity and it works out to be a very small percentage of VIA's total route, the risk of delay would be significantly lower than today. I think this option
would be a last resort though, and only used if they can't raise enough money to have dedicated tracks on this segment.

I am still of the opinion that access to Montreal is going to be a much bigger problem to solve.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Well, more like 300 km. This is all speculative because of the Via secrecy, but if Via's plan is to build track in the CP ROW then it makes little difference (to CP) the distance this occurs. The CP ROW is probably 50 feet. If VIA needs to buy/lease, 20 feet (as an example) then that prevents future expansion on the entire sub (unless CP wanted to create a bottleneck).

Yes, I agree there are other potential options or configurations that would not involve the CP ROW (although many would be more expensive). It is also possible that VIA is just planning to use the actual freight line, which would negatively affect timing (because they have to wait for CP permission to enter those 25 km segments).

The freight line from Peterborough to Nephton via Havelcok would not result in any conflict with passenger service. Via could either be a leaseholder, outright purchase the existing line or purchase the ROW or a combination of all 3. The freight train already operate primarily at night anyhow so there would not be interference with passenger trains. There is probably enough room on the
Row for 3 tracks if you removed the pole line so you could have a separate line for freight but CP would never need that as the likelihood of increased traffic is minuscule. If it wasn't for the Indusmin mine at Nephton, this track would have been torn up long ago. CP has talked for years about closing the line and the mine has talked about switching to trucks for years but they seem to come to a mutually acceptable agreement. At some point the mine will be depleted and CP will have absolutely no interest in maintaining a line. Most of this whole right of way from Peterborough to Glen Tay is through nothing but bush and bogs. Don't make an issue out of nothing.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

The freight line from Peterborough to Nephton via Havelcok would not result in any conflict with passenger service. Via could either be a leaseholder, outright purchase the existing line or purchase the ROW or a combination of all 3. The freight train already operate primarily at night anyhow so there would not be interference with passenger trains. There is probably enough room on the
Row for 3 tracks if you removed the pole line so you could have a separate line for freight but CP would never need that as the likelihood of increased traffic is minuscule. If it wasn't for the Indusmin mine at Nephton, this track would have been torn up long ago. CP has talked for years about closing the line and the mine has talked about switching to trucks for years but they seem to come to a mutually acceptable agreement. At some point the mine will be depleted and CP will have absolutely no interest in maintaining a line. Most of this whole right of way from Peterborough to Glen Tay is through nothing but bush and bogs. Don't make an issue out of nothing.

There's also a corn ethanol factory in Havelock that appears to be connected (in fact, it's where the railway line ends) that I imagine would receive corn shipments by rail as well.