17th ave SW or Notre Dame Ave?

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by red_179

King Street West is the entertainment district in Toronto. It is full of restaurants, lounges and nightclubs. Bloor is known for high end shopping, Armani, Dolce & Gabbana, Prada, Holt Renfrew, etc. It's Canada most expensive retail area. Both areas are very prominent for visitors.

Seriously ? As I already said and even gave example, Bloor is lined with numerous communities. Just saying Bloor is too vague. People say Yorkville.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Vercingetorix

Not true, it depends case by case. In some cases the street is more known than the neighborhood, and in other cases it's the neighborhood.

Of course however, in my experience a local is more likely to say, "I'm going to College Street" while a tourist will ask, "Where is Little Italy?" It's cute and more marketable. Likewise, a Connaught Village over Notre Dame Avenue.

[artvandelay]

As a history buff, I love this idea and I've been a supporter of bringing back street names for quite some time. Bringing back "avenue Notre Dame" would be a nice nod to the French Catholic history of the Rouleauville area. As a descendant of the early German immigrants to Bridgeland/Riverside, I'd also like to see Berlin Ave and Dresden street brought back to that area.

Conversely, 17th has built up a fair bit of brand equity and it is certainly our most well known numbered road. There's nothing stopping numbered roads from becoming well known destinations, like 5th Avenue in New York for example.

Also, the poll question for this thread does not make sense.

[UofC.engineer]

Originally Posted by MasterG

I support a name change to highlight the significance of the street better. Something classy like "Notre Dame" or "loughheed" would work. It's less about the locals and more about the brand.

Sure it would take a generation to get all the locals people to forget, but I think our numbering system aligns with our major problem of being a city designed for engineers and not one designed for people. Any moves to give Calgary a bit more personality is a good thing.

And though I support a new / old name, I will be one of those that will call it 17th. Too old to switch now for me

I think numbering street names on a grid layout is nothing short of genius.

If someone told me to meet them at 24th ave and 6th street NE I know exactly where go without a map. However, if we were in Vancouver and someone told me to meet them at Adamac st and Naniamo st I wouldn't have the foggiest idea of where that is.

Portland names their streets alphabetical order and it's not too bad.

Anyways...just my two cents

[McMurph]

Originally Posted by artvandelay

Conversely, 17th has built up a fair bit of brand equity and it is certainly our most well known numbered road.

This is the reason why of all our streets 17th is the one I would least want renamed. When anybody in the city says they're headed out to 17th or there's a great new spot opening on 17th, you know exactly what they're talking about. The only question is where on the 13 blocks between 1st and 14th the place will be. Obviously, the street is a lot longer and there are 7 other 17th's it could be, but if it ain't on the Ave people will specify.

Scarth is OK. Stephen Ave is good. I like Van Horne. I think the Atlantic / Pacific naming of 9th Ave E / W is kinda neat. Broadway for 4th doesn't really fit. But of all of them, 17th as a street is already a great brand. If you don't like numbers, maybe just write out "Seventeenth" in some sort of old-timey font.

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

I think numbering street names on a grid layout is nothing short of genius.

If someone told me to meet them at 24th ave and 6th street NE I know exactly where go without a map. However, if we were in Vancouver and someone told me to meet them at Adamac st and Naniamo st I wouldn't have the foggiest idea of where that is.

Portland names their streets alphabetical order and it's not too bad.

Anyways...just my two cents

Surprise! The engineer likes number systems!

I would accept the reversal of this plan also: rename all streets that aren't that important and keep the most popular avenues as numbers. For the non-numerically inclined or unfamiliar (i.e. visitors) telling them to go to 17th Ave has several meanings. If we renamed 17th Ave N something else, this problem wouldn't exist.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

I think numbering street names on a grid layout is nothing short of genius.

If someone told me to meet them at 24th ave and 6th street NE I know exactly where go without a map. However, if we were in Vancouver and someone told me to meet them at Adamac st and Naniamo st I wouldn't have the foggiest idea of where that is.

Portland names their streets alphabetical order and it's not too bad.

Anyways...just my two cents

What's so funny though is we did that logical move, and then later on created whole communities where every street is almost the same name.

[artvandelay]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

What's so funny though is we did that logical move, and then later on created whole communities where every street is almost the same name.

As evidenced by Edmonton, it's tough to execute curvelinear neighbourhoods with numbered streets. You end up with this type of nonsense.

[DizzyEdge]

Ok that might be worse.

[Suburgatory]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Seriously ? As I already said and even gave example, Bloor is lined with numerous communities. Just saying Bloor is too vague. People say Yorkville.

People that live there say Yorkville. People that don't, don't.

[crane_guy]

...

[McMurph]

Originally Posted by crane_guy

If people are concerned about attracting tourism, I don't think re-naming the roadway will do as much as, diversifying and growing the area. Tompkins park could stand to have events other than speakers corner. Lilac fest is not enough. More local restraunts. More live music, a larger concert or theater venue, Galeries and Hotels right on 17th, are some of my thoughts.There's just not enough to attract all walks of life down there.
I think 17th will suffer if the new arena is built in the west village.

I'm not quite sure where you're coming from on this. More restaurants? Seriously? One of the biggest barriers to diversity on 17th is the fact that the restaurants are already pushing out other retail. And while I agree that more live music and galleries would be good, I really don't think the avenue needs a big venue. It's busy all the time without needing periodic floods of theatre goers (or hockey fans for that matter) washing down it. And for what it's worth, Tompkins Park is being used more and more for all sorts of stuff -- not enough, maybe, but more than before.

In my mind what it needs most is some lower rent commercial spaces on the side streets (like it has at 6th, 9th, 11th to get some of the marginal start-ups and to absorb some of the existing retail that is being priced off the main drag). The redevelopment of 8th will be huge. And it needs a better pedestrian environment. Then, as I've said before, 17th needs bylaw officers with bean bag cannons on the rooftops to knock the assholes off their stupidly loud bikes when they're cruising around on weekends.

I don't think the problem is that 17th needs to attract tourism. I think the original question was about how to direct tourists to 17th. Google plus beltline hotels ought to do it.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by McMurph

I'm not quite sure where you're coming from on this. More restaurants? Seriously? One of the biggest barriers to diversity on 17th is the fact that the restaurants are already pushing out other retail. And while I agree that more live music and galleries would be good, I really don't think the avenue needs a big venue. It's busy all the time without needing periodic floods of theatre goers (or hockey fans for that matter) washing down it. And for what it's worth, Tompkins Park is being used more and more for all sorts of stuff -- not enough, maybe, but more than before.

In my mind what it needs most is some lower rent commercial spaces on the side streets (like it has at 6th, 9th, 11th to get some of the marginal start-ups and to absorb some of the existing retail that is being priced off the main drag). The redevelopment of 8th will be huge. And it needs a better pedestrian environment. Then, as I've said before, 17th needs bylaw officers with bean bag cannons on the rooftops to knock the assholes off their stupidly loud bikes when they're cruising around on weekends.

I don't think the problem is that 17th needs to attract tourism. I think the original question was about how to direct tourists to 17th. Google plus beltline hotels ought to do it.

I agree WRT to the noise and sidewalks. I don't know why people are so crazy about roadside parking - is a (probably single occupied) car parked for an hour really worth more to business than a wide, well used sidewalk? 17th Ave is already effectively single lane in each direction because of this, so no real harm done to narrow the roadway, but the road would be much more pleasant with a wider sidewalk.

And on noise - also agree. I don't know if there are any bylaws on that but I'd definitely support it. Completely ruins the atmosphere on a patio. But it has to be said, diesel buses are just as loud as the other obnoxious motors. Buses suck.

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I agree WRT to the noise and sidewalks. I don't know why people are so crazy about roadside parking - is a (probably single occupied) car parked for an hour really worth more to business than a wide, well used sidewalk? 17th Ave is already effectively single lane in each direction because of this, so no real harm done to narrow the roadway, but the road would be much more pleasant with a wider sidewalk.

I have heard many retail developers say yes, yes it is. The perception of the available parking for customers close to the door of their retail units is key when trying to lease out the units.

[RyLucky]

Re: noise

As more people live in the Beltline, there will be more and more push to keep people off patios, especially at night. While drunken masses always have drawbacks, I can't think of a better vehicle than the patio for drawing people downtown, keeping them spending money, minimizing overheads (pun intended), keeping eyes on the street, and creating a music culture. Surely, a compromise is possible (i.e. 11pm on weeknights, limit outdoor amplification), but I fear that we'll go too far to regulate this. Sunshine is our 1 weather advantage over our Canadian peers. I want Calgary to be a place with many patios on rooftops and adjacent to sidewalks.

[Surrealplaces]

Ultimately any street name works, I just think it could be something more recognizable with a name instead of a number. Seeing as Notre Dame was the original name, it's the name I would use.

Why do I like a name instead of a number? Think about Manhattan...which is heavily loaded with numbered streets, but outside of 5th ave, and I guess 42nd, it's the streets with names are the ones that stick out (Broadway, Houston, Mulberry, Canal, South, Wall, Bowery, Madison, Bleecker, Park, and so on.....) I think it's just a simple recognition thing. A name gives it a personality...just my two cents.

The other issue I have with numbers is the quadrants thing. People getting streets mixed up because you have to add the quadrant to it so people know for sure which street you mean. I've seen streets like 4th, 1st and 17th mixed up because there are other ones.

As RLucky pointed out, maybe the question should be 'should we change it?' I think most people would agree it would have a better ring to it as a street name, but is it worth the trouble of changing it? Maybe...maybe not....

Look at this way, what if the street was already named Notre Dame Ave, and there was the question of changing it back to original 17th ave. Absolutely nobody would ever go for that choice, which tells me that Notre Dame is the better option.

Originally Posted by crane_guy

Nothing wrong with "17th ave". it's well enough known by those that would visit an area, that offers what it does. It's somewhat of a unique number, I think has a nice ring to it.
It is what it is. It's partying at night, and artsy fartsy shops in the day time and thats not everyones flavor. It's not a magical road.
If people are concerned about attracting tourism, I don't think re-naming the roadway will do as much as, diversifying and growing the area. Tompkins park could stand to have events other than speakers corner. Lilac fest is not enough. More local restraunts. More live music, a larger concert or theater venue, Galeries and Hotels right on 17th, are some of my thoughts.There's just not enough to attract all walks of life down there.
I think 17th will suffer if the new arena is built in the west village.

As far as calgarys numbered roads. like mentioned you don't need a map. It's a great simple system, especially for a large city that goes through "booms"of people moving here.