Ottawa's Byward Market

[OTownandDown]

Went down to the market on the weekend for a birthday party, and I can say that it's still a wild party district on a Saturday, and its still for 20-somethings only.

Went to a trendy new place that markets as a high-end dinner destination that turns into a new-york themed nightclub. Had a gross meal of very old beef tartare that had been made the day before and put in the fridge for the exterior to dry out like old cheese left out in the sun, followed by a rock hard piece of salmon on a bed of plain white rice with SIX burned brussels sprouts that were not cleaned beforehand. A $360 experience, with one cocktail and two beers.

The evening was capped by a walk along Clarence and York, where we met the drug dealer who was kicked out of our bar after getting in someone's face being kicked out of another bar, a dozen police vehicles, and a sketchy uber ride home. All in all, a pretty typical night

As for the 'market' in the daytime, there's exactly one-half street touting fresh goods in the old tradition of the market. And the farm stalls are re-sellers with dubious origins anyways. Fun for a tourist looking for a quaint afternoon, I guess.

All in all, nothing has changed from the 00's when I saw the market through a hazier lens and I didn't know any better.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by phil235

Not really though. There are express buses for a few big events, but not for the festivals, markets, 67s or PWHL games. Most of the time transit to Lansdowne is much worse than transit to the Market.

Express buses are a solution for getting a lot of people in or out in a short period of time. They don’t have much to do with the overall vibrancy of an area.

Really? That's a failure. How do they not have buses for events at the Civic Centre that could attract up to 10k people?

[originalmuffins]

Anyone thinking removing street parking is saying to remove all parking is taking a point and trying to use that to fuel their agenda.

Remove the street parking, and create a walk-only district. Most people are saying this. If we still need parking in the area, create parking garages on the outer edges of the market, which would be significantly cheaper than an underground parking garage. If we have the funds for the latter a la Lansdowne, sure go ahead, but a bunch of parking garage buildings should be good to service the area. There is so many options for parking that would need less than a 5 minute walk that creating parking on the outer edges would be more than sufficient to give people visiting from outside the core an easy way to come to the market.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

That [under-plaza parking] was in the cards at one point, but now the City decided to instead find a private partner to build parking at the edge of the Market, before proceeding to, well, not actually ask anyone, kind of like we're waiting for transit funding for projects we didn't officially ask upper levels to fund.

Although I used to like this idea, of burying parking under York Street, today I would rather avoid car ramps in the Market. It would take away from the heritage and charm of the place. I might be open to doing that near Dalhousie or King Edward.

< snip >

Yes, I am aware that the idea of under-plaza parking for the By Ward Market has been floated before. That doesn’t make it the wrong idea. The fact that the city has decided on trying to get someone else to pay to create parking, and for the city, itself, to do as little as possible; that is the problem.

The Market could be a wonderful destination. It has heritage buildings, which could be restored and highlighted with lighting; there could be lots of pedestrian plaza space; the market element could be expanded to include weekly book-bazaars; there could be a Christmas Market; or a craft market. The space could be used for small fairs that come to town – which are usually limited to suburban parking lots. There would be room for rotating art/statuary displays. There should be busking and fabulous restaurants during the day, and nightclubs at night, so that there is always something happening. Maybe even add a couple of freezing pads for Winterlude attractions, like figure skating or outdoor NHL/PWHL exhibition games. Get rid of that old (city-owned, I think) parking structure between George and York and put in a large Winter Garden so that some activities can continue through the winter.

Instead, Ottawa has followed its typical course of studies and came up with the idea that the city needs a showcase tourist area; one that is lively and dynamic. So, they are going to widen a few sidewalks in a crime-riddled area; keep the through traffic; and hope that others provide parking – in the future.

The people want the Lipizzan Stallions, so the city puts lipstick on a pig and presents it as the same thing. The masses stay away. The city takes the view that it was a good thing that it didn’t spend more, since the fickle people didn’t come.

It was Jim Durrell who suggested that Ottawa should think big. That it should decide on a big project and work towards that visionary goal. His view was that it didn’t matter what the project was, but that the people needed to have something wonderful to look forward to. I’m still waiting.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

But the parking isn’t closed for most of those occasions.

Parking in the garage is mostly unavailable for any event of that size. And congestion on Bank St. is actually worse for the non-football events because they rely on regular transit.

But the point is that ease of car access and parking are not strengths at Lansdowne for any event that is popular.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Really? That's a failure. How do they not have buses for events at the Civic Centre that could attract up to 10k people?

They do add a few trips, but no express buses and no shuttles like for the big events. It could definitely be much better.

[J.OT13]

The parking garage between York and George is privately owned. Built by Freiman's, sold by HBC at some point. There's still a tunnel to HBC. Closed to the public.

City loves delegating its responsibilities onto others. (Provinces too. I guess it's a Government thing).

I think the play is to have multiple parking garages available around the Market, and a lot of that already exists. Just need to make it a little more affordable or have a validation system like Lansdowne, sponsored by the City or whatever the new ByWard authority is called.

Having one "main" parking under York Plaza and George could create bottleneck. That's why spreading it out would be a better idea.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by originalmuffins

Anyone thinking removing street parking is saying to remove all parking is taking a point and trying to use that to fuel their agenda.

Remove the street parking, and create a walk-only district. Most people are saying this. If we still need parking in the area, create parking garages on the outer edges of the market, which would be significantly cheaper than an underground parking garage. If we have the funds for the latter a la Lansdowne, sure go ahead, but a bunch of parking garage buildings should be good to service the area. There is so many options for parking that would need less than a 5 minute walk that creating parking on the outer edges would be more than sufficient to give people visiting from outside the core an easy way to come to the market.

Please be specific as to where you would suggest that these "bunch of parking garage buildings" should be put. Which existing buildings would you replace with the parking structures? Which roads would you direct the traffic onto? Have you included the land aquisition costs in your estimate, since you claim that using city-owned land under current roadways would be "significantly" more expensive?

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Please be specific as to where you would suggest that these "bunch of parking garage buildings" should be put. Which existing buildings would you replace with the parking structures? Which roads would you direct the traffic onto? Have you included the land aquisition costs in your estimate, since you claim that using city-owned land under current roadways would be "significantly" more expensive?

I think he's talking about parking garages under new buildings, IF those are needed (which is not a given). Not stand-alone parking garages.

There are already multiple hotels and condos planned or going up that can include public parking. As these are on the periphery of the Market, they would use the same access roads that are used now - Rideau, Dalhousie etc.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by phil235

Parking in the garage is mostly unavailable for any event of that size. And congestion on Bank St. is actually worse for the non-football events because they rely on regular transit.

But the point is that ease of car access and parking are not strengths at Lansdowne for any event that is popular.

You are talking apples and oranges – at this point anyway. Events at TD Place are unique. You can not simply drive to a local mall to watch the Red Blacks or the 67’s. I can go to my local store and buy carrots. And, if I really want to get (apparently) farm-fresh carrots, I can go to my local Farmer’s Market.

If, in the future, the By Ward Market becomes a unique experience, then it could draw in people who are willing to walk from the World Exchange Centre. But my guess is that a whole lot more people would go if it was more ‘barrier-free’.

Have you noticed that Whole Foods pays for their customer’s parking cost? There is a reason for that. ‘Whole Paycheque’ (cute name) charges a lot for its goods. There is a normal bell-curve for what people are willing to pay for, say, Hot Sauce. The majority will not pay $15 for a bottle, but there are those, closer to the end of the curve, that will; but their numbers are fewer. Thus, the store needs to draw in more customers, in hopes of attracting enough of the high-spenders to cover its expenses. Paying the parking cost reduces a barrier, which draws in more drive-in customers from further afield. They don’t do it to be nice to their customers; they do it because they need more customers.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

You are talking apples and oranges – at this point anyway. Events at TD Place are unique. You can not simply drive to a local mall to watch the Red Blacks or the 67’s. I can go to my local store and buy carrots. And, if I really want to get (apparently) farm-fresh carrots, I can go to my local Farmer’s Market.

If, in the future, the By Ward Market becomes a unique experience, then it could draw in people who are willing to walk from the World Exchange Centre. But my guess is that a whole lot more people would go if it was more ‘barrier-free’.

Have you noticed that Whole Foods pays for their customer’s parking cost? There is a reason for that. ‘Whole Paycheque’ (cute name) charges a lot for its goods. There is a normal bell-curve for what people are willing to pay for, say, Hot Sauce. The majority will not pay $15 for a bottle, but there are those, closer to the end of the curve, that will; but their numbers are fewer. Thus, the store needs to draw in more customers, in hopes of attracting enough of the high-spenders to cover its expenses. Paying the parking cost reduces a barrier, which draws in more drive-in customers from further afield. They don’t do it to be nice to their customers; they do it because they need more customers.

We're getting a bit away from the original topic, which was whether urban areas need easy car access and plentiful parking to succeed.

You are cherry picking a little bit. Yes, Whole Foods validates parking, as do a couple of other retailers at Lansdowne. The restaurants don't, nor does Winners, nor do the 67s etc. Sure parking validation is a nice benefit, but it's hardly essential for urban retailers. The Rideau Centre (right next to the Market, incidentally) is the most successful mall in the city and no one there validates parking to my knowledge.

Also, I don't get the statement that the Byward Market isn't unique in Ottawa. It is probably the most unique area we have. I get that some suburbanites feel that it is "crime riddled" (that one has 70s US vibes), or they don't want to slow down their cars to 30 kmph to get there, but I honestly think that those people who might go down a few times a year aren't the regular customer base for the Market now. Maybe in another era when Ottawa was a smaller city, but I really believe that the Market can do just fine relying on people looking for a different experience than the car paradises that the suburbs provide.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by phil235

We're getting a bit away from the original topic, which was whether urban areas need easy car access and plentiful parking to succeed.

You are cherry picking a little bit. Yes, Whole Foods validates parking, as do a couple of other retailers at Lansdowne. The restaurants don't, nor does Winners, nor do the 67s etc. Sure parking validation is a nice benefit, but it's hardly essential for urban retailers. The Rideau Centre (right next to the Market, incidentally) is the most successful mall in the city and no one there validates parking to my knowledge.

Also, I don't get the statement that the Byward Market isn't unique in Ottawa. It is probably the most unique area we have. I get that some suburbanites feel that it is "crime riddled" (that one has 70s US vibes), or they don't want to slow down their cars to 30 kmph to get there, but I honestly think that those people who might go down a few times a year aren't the regular customer base for the Market now. Maybe in another era when Ottawa was a smaller city, but I really believe that the Market can do just fine relying on people looking for a different experience than the car paradises that the suburbs provide.

I agree. Actually Bayshore was overtaking Rideau Centre and then St. Laurent was looking at expanding but Rideau Centre seems to have regained their place. Parking is a big part of that but so is the LRT and general location.

People in Ottawa mostly drive but the Byward market can be the one different place in the city and thrive as a pedestrian and patio environment. Of course the strategy has to include these kind of cafe and restaurants that benefit from not having the cars. We can't expect people to walk up and buy furniture.

[Lakeofthewood]

Originally Posted by phil235

We're getting a bit away from the original topic, which was whether urban areas need easy car access and plentiful parking to succeed.

You are cherry picking a little bit. Yes, Whole Foods validates parking, as do a couple of other retailers at Lansdowne. The restaurants don't, nor does Winners, nor do the 67s etc. Sure parking validation is a nice benefit, but it's hardly essential for urban retailers. The Rideau Centre (right next to the Market, incidentally) is the most successful mall in the city and no one there validates parking to my knowledge.

Also, I don't get the statement that the Byward Market isn't unique in Ottawa. It is probably the most unique area we have. I get that some suburbanites feel that it is "crime riddled" (that one has 70s US vibes), or they don't want to slow down their cars to 30 kmph to get there, but I honestly think that those people who might go down a few times a year aren't the regular customer base for the Market now. Maybe in another era when Ottawa was a smaller city, but I really believe that the Market can do just fine relying on people looking for a different experience than the car paradises that the suburbs provide.

Exactly this, and it doesn't currently serve that purpose. If I'm looking to hit up a market on the weekend, why would I try and go to Byward Market and risk getting run over by cars every time I cross the street, rather than go to Lansdowne or Parkdale where I can wander freely without that concern (I'm talking about wandering between vendors, not the entire grounds).

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

That's not fair. It's one of the worst streets in the city. There is zero chance for street interaction though Canabis legalized has opened retail in those dark corners of the city.

There was very much chance for something better than that object.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Where the blue roads are at grade and the red and fuchsia are ramps/tunnels to underground parking.

Oh god no.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

With a reliable bus network with 10 minute frequencies, it would be easier and desirable to go to the Market.

We are never going to have a reliable 10-minute bus network in the city core as long as we keep taking dedicated space AWAY that might otherwise have been able to give transit more priority.

Between the complete lack of vision for a higher-order transit system that serves the urban core well, and the "complete streets" movement that removes the possibility of dedicated transit lanes on any truly urban streets, we are left with

(checks the bin)

shit bus service that is no better than what we currently have.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

We are never going to have a reliable 10-minute bus network in the city core as long as we keep taking dedicated space AWAY that might otherwise have been able to give transit more priority.

Between the complete lack of vision for a higher-order transit system that serves the urban core well, and the "complete streets" movement that removes the possibility of dedicated transit lanes on any truly urban streets, we are left with

(checks the bin)

shit bus service that is no better than what we currently have.

Not saying we'll ever have a good, reliable and frequent bus service, just that it would make transit and heading downtown more desirable.

Probably would be cheaper to build such a transit network over parking. City would never understand that.

[DTcrawler]

Wouldn’t a 10-15 minute limit or “loading zone only” signs for all street parking areas in the new plan solve a lot of issues? That way, people needing to load heavy objects from a store/vendor have an opportunity to do so. It also gives food couriers an opportunity to stop in front of restaurants to pick up orders, or ride-share drivers a chance to drop-off/pick-up passengers.

I can almost guarantee those three cases were behind the city’s decision to opt against total pedestrianization of the Market. There was also probably some consideration given to taxi stands and emergency vehicle access (because obviously pedestrianizing a street means no emerg. vehicles allowed /s). Of course, you don’t want street parking spaces being hogged by people ditching their cars and spending hours in the Market, those people can use a nearby garage or walk/bike/transit. Adding such signs would increase turnover of parking stalls and likely reduce the number of F150s circling the Market endlessly, looking for “the perfect spot”

On top of that, bollards are a magical tool that the city can use to adjust the size of street parking areas in the future, assuming they are built in a “flex space” style similar to Elgin or Rideau.

I don’t think the new plan is perfect, but I don’t think it closes the door on some of the bigger ideas some have proposed in this thread.

[originalmuffins]

Originally Posted by phil235

I think he's talking about parking garages under new buildings, IF those are needed (which is not a given). Not stand-alone parking garages.

There are already multiple hotels and condos planned or going up that can include public parking. As these are on the periphery of the Market, they would use the same access roads that are used now - Rideau, Dalhousie etc.

Yup this exactly.

[rocketphish]

Rideau Centre police operations centre to open in late May says Ottawa police chief
At the board meeting, Stubbs said there would be other initiatives announced for the ByWard market “in the coming weeks.”

Catherine Morrison, Ottawa Citizen
Published Apr 22, 2024 • Last updated 23 minutes ago • 3 minute read



The Ottawa Police Service says many of the initiatives outlined in its new Community Outreach Response and Engagement Strategy (CORE) strategy are expected to be in place in the next few weeks, as members of the community express their worries about the plan.

In a press conference on Monday, ahead of the Ottawa Police Service Board’s monthly meeting, Ottawa Police Chief Eric Stubbs said the project’s timeline outlines that the new neighbourhood operations centre will open “in the latter part” of May.

Several of the other programs will also be launched around that time and into June, the chief said.

“It is ramping up and in terms of sort of that spring busyness and people outside in the Market, so we’re aware of that and we will have a presence there, you know, today, if you will, but we’ll be layering more resources and some of our programs throughout the spring,” he said at the afternoon press conference.

At the board meeting, Stubbs said there would be other initiatives announced for the ByWard market “in the coming weeks.”

The Ottawa Police Services Board’s new Community Outreach Response and Engagement Strategy (CORE) has promised increased police presence in the city’s crime “hot spots” identified using data analytics, like the ByWard Market and surrounding area, along with a new neighbourhood operations centre in a Rideau Centre storefront.

Police said in a recent report that the strategy is focused on “sustainable prevention, deterrence, and enforcement solutions, and marks a shift from reactive policing to proactive management of community issues.”

The Ontario government and the City of Ottawa reached a new funding deal in late March, with $48 million over three years to address community and public safety. That money will pay for an increase in uniformed police officers in the ByWard Market and on the transit system, along with alternative mental health supports.

Two members of the community participated in the meeting to share their concerns about the CORE plan.

Elizabeth Venczel, ByWard Market resident, criminology PhD student at uOttawa and a member of the Criminalization and Punishment Education Project, said she had several concerns about the plan, particularly the use of hotspot policing and community partnerships.

Venczel noted that hotspot policing is problematic, noting that predictive policing systems are racist, and lead to individuals being over policed, arrested, “or worse.”

“Hotspot policing has drawn valid criticism from professionals, academics and activists since it almost always results in discriminatory practices and increased police brutality,” Venczel said. “Communities with limited resources experience a higher rate of documented policing than affluent neighbourhoods and this will only increase with the implementation of the neighbourhood operation centre.”

“Hotspot policing in the ByWard Market is a complete violation of our human rights.”

Venczel said she was also concerned that the plan was highlighting community partnerships, noting that it was “attempting to hide the fact that it’s investing in punishment” by claiming to partner with community-based organizations.

“Rather than investing directly into community organizations that deal with the root causes of harm, such as mental health and substance use services, life skills training, affordable housing, after-school programs for youth and free breakfast programs, OPS is de-legitimizing the efforts of these organizations,” Venczel said.

More to come …

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/ridea...a-police-chief