Urban living in Edmonton

[240glt]

^ how about the poeple who lived in the mining camps in the 1900's ?

I don't know if 1995 was a start of anything. I came to Edmonton for the first time in 1999 and the downtown area was beyond depressing

I am lucky to be able to get the perspective of someone who was born in Edmonton and lived here since 1971, was extemely active in the community in his younger years and has a proepr perpective of what things used to be like. I'll take his word as fact

[Hallsy's Toupee]

I've lived and worked downtown since the early 90s if you want my perspective on things when I first moved here.

• The demographics in my building has always been singles and couples, white collar professionals, empty nesters and students. Sadly the 1 bdrm suites are not very accommodating for families.
• I paid $55G for my place, housing was dirt-cheap in Alberta back then.
• Downtown was alive from 8AM - 5PM, that has never changed.
• There was some nightlife back then. The Chase in Scotia Place was one of my regular haunts. The Bronx and the Roost were around and going strong. But most clubs were out in the suburbs, very little of it on Whyte Ave.
• Weekend nights hosted wall-to-wall car cruisers on Jasper Ave until it eventually moved to Whyte, but the sidewalks were bereft of people.
• CN and CP Railyards abandoned, MacEwen and Save On were still a couple of years away. Rail bridges were still around. VIA Rail terminal was still downtown.
• 105 St bridge over the CN railyards was still around. I thought it was goofy that the road terminated at 107 Ave.
• Hooker stroll was in the warehouse district west of 105 St, and another east of 97 St.
• 104 St was a no-man's land anchored by the seedy Cecil Hotel.
• After Woodwards closed, the closest grocery store was the Save On on Kingsway (now a Superstore).
• The original flagship Bay was still open where Enterprise Square is now.
• Manulife 2 podium had a food court, a coffee shop and some retail.
• 102 Ave, 103 Ave, 105 St and 106 St were all one-ways

[urbanroo]

Originally Posted by Hallsy's Toupee

I've lived and worked downtown since the early 90s if you want my perspective on things when I first moved here.

• The demographics in my building has always been singles and couples, white collar professionals, empty nesters and students. Sadly the 1 bdrm suites are not very accommodating for families.
• I paid $55G for my place, housing was dirt-cheap in Alberta back then.
• Downtown was alive from 8AM - 5PM, that has never changed.
• There was some nightlife back then. The Chase in Scotia Place was one of my regular haunts. The Bronx and the Roost were around and going strong. But most clubs were out in the suburbs, very little of it on Whyte Ave.
• Weekend nights hosted wall-to-wall car cruisers on Jasper Ave until it eventually moved to Whyte, but the sidewalks were bereft of people.
• CN and CP Railyards abandoned, MacEwen and Save On were still a couple of years away. Rail bridges were still around. VIA Rail terminal was still downtown.
• 105 St bridge over the CN railyards was still around. I thought it was goofy that the road terminated at 107 Ave.
• Hooker stroll was in the warehouse district west of 105 St, and another east of 97 St.
• 104 St was a no-man's land anchored by the seedy Cecil Hotel.
• After Woodwards closed, the closest grocery store was the Save On on Kingsway (now a Superstore).
• The original flagship Bay was still open where Enterprise Square is now.
• Manulife 2 podium had a food court, a coffee shop and some retail.
• 102 Ave, 103 Ave, 105 St and 106 St were all one-ways

That's some interesting perspective. What, in your view, are the biggest differences now? And when did things really start to change?

[ue]

Originally Posted by 240glt

^ how about the poeple who lived in the mining camps in the 1900's ?

I don't know if 1995 was a start of anything. I came to Edmonton for the first time in 1999 and the downtown area was beyond depressing

I am lucky to be able to get the perspective of someone who was born in Edmonton and lived here since 1971, was extemely active in the community in his younger years and has a proepr perpective of what things used to be like. I'll take his word as fact

The '90s definitely seemed to be the lowest point in Edmonton's history. Even in the '80s, areas like Alberta Ave were much more lively, and Jasper Ave hadn't been ripped apart for cut-and-cover LRT*.

At first thought, I want to say that people choosing a downtown (or Oliver or Strathcona) lifestyle are "pioneers", but I look at the people who chose downtown in the '90s and 2000s, when things were much rougher, and how much less options were around then, and they definitely seem like true pioneers by comparison.

But it's also not that black and white. 20-somethings moving into condos and apartments downtown and pushing revitalization of the core is hardly pioneering anymore, but having a family downtown still is. So there are still relatively unchartered territories for urban living here.


* early '80s, more specifically here.
...

To the OP, the lifestyle you prefer is definitely possible here, but you will have to make compromises and lower your expectations if you're used to San Francisco, London, and Chicago. Edmonton is younger, smaller, and very car-centric, despite our efforts to the contrary. Our public transport shuts down shortly after 1am, so if you're out late and don't have a car, prepare to cab it.

I would also say it is difficult (though not impossible) to live here without a car 100% of the time. For 90% of your needs, you can live without a car with ease, especially if you live centrally, but there's always that 10% where having a car will make your life a whole lot more easy. Let's face it, this is Edmonton, not Montreal. Now whether you borrow or rent or try a car-sharing service, or actually own a vehicle doesn't matter much, but I would highly recommend having access to a vehicle occasionally. Much of this city is annoying to traverse via transit too, so unless you want to stay confined to the central areas of the city, a car comes in handy.

Edmonton is also a city dominated by wide boulevards, shopping malls, and under- and over-ground pedways, thus making the public realm seem somewhat lacking at times (though drastically improving). Jasper Ave west of 109th is still not very pedestrian friendly and 104 Ave is lined with suburban-style strip malls, for example. Even Whyte Ave is pretty wide.

Also, with a populace that doesn't really embrace the cold, the outdoor activity also gets very sparse in the winter when it's too cold, with people huddled in malls and pedways. So expect some desolate looking scenes downtown when the mercury hits -15 in December.

I bring this up because while, amenity-wise, you have 90% of what you need within walking distance in Oliver or Downtown, but Edmonton isn't always the most walkable city.

Nonetheless, this city needs people like you and others on this forum because without you guys, Edmonton will continue to be the post-modern suburban city clinging to the '80s since 1989. So while it will be more challenging to live a car-free urban lifestyle compared to Chicago, I hope you at least give it a shot here in Edmonton.

[urbanroo]

Thanks for all the responses; this is developing into an interesting and instructive discussion. Whatever one's definition of "pioneer" it seems the city of Edmonton, like the rest of North America's cities, has undergone successive periods of urban vitalization and decay. My neighborhood in Chicago, which probably would seem very "mature" compared to anywhere in Edmonton, is a case in point. In the year 1890, it was thriving with actual "pioneers"; in 1990, however, it too was pretty bleak. The local high street, now filled with trendy coffee shops and restaurants was all pawn shops and empty storefronts 25 years ago. But the revitalization is not complete: one of the big issues in Chicago is public schools. With an activist PTA, the local elementary school is now pretty good (something that couldn't be said for even 5 or 10 years ago) and now the neighborhood is filled with young families (along with singles and couples). But the public high school is awful, and so families with older children have to either pay for private school (if they can afford it) or move out to the suburbs (thus depriving the city of needed tax revenue.) This is something Edmonton doesn't have to deal with: owing to the more equitable distribution of education money, I'd venture to say that the worse school in Edmonton is MUCH MUCH better than Chicago's worst (Chicago's best private high school is likely better than Edmonton's best, Old Scona).

In terms of families moving into the downtown/Oliver core, my impression from the posts so far is that if we can swing it, we will be one of the first (though not the very first). Maybe families are the next obvious step for the area. Many young middle aged people, people in their mid 30s to mid 40s, have two things in common: they have a lot more disposable income than they've ever had before, and they have children. Having families downtown will improve things even more, I bet. That said, we are running into two problems. (1) There are VERY FEW 3-bedroom condos available (though in our case as we only have one child, a 2-bedroom will just about work). (2) Many of the buildings have age-restrictive covenants. This is something I've never encountered before and it seems to me, at any rate, to be a bad thing for the city as a whole. If anyone has insight into why these restrictions are there and what the thinking and history is behind them, I'd be very interested!

In terms of having children in an urban environment, I should note that I find everything is made easier when you can walk around the corner for something, and this applies to raising children too. When I need diapers, I walk around the corner. When we go to the public library for singalong, we walk around the corner. When we go to the pool, we walk around the corner. These things would be so much more difficult if I had to strap my son into a car seat, load and unload the car, etc. Maybe when my son is older (like 8) having a backyard will be nice, but for now, since he has to be supervised all the time anyway, we just stop off at the playground (also around the corner) during our daily errands.

[Coldrsx]

Far from the first or last.

[Hallsy's Toupee]

Originally Posted by urbanroo

That's some interesting perspective. What, in your view, are the biggest differences now? And when did things really start to change?

I would say things started changing in the late 90s, but there were a series of starts.

The city council of the day introduced a new incentive program for developers to build new condos downtown - this added more residents but we ended up with ugly buildings.

The oil boom of the 2000s really drove things up a few more gears - new condos couldn't keep up with demand, office towers started filling up again, new Art Gallery of Alberta was built, and the EPCOR tower was built.

Things petered out a bit during the 2008 recession but the new arena district has really moved things into overdrive with the towers, hotel and such!

Another catalyst for downtown change was closing the City Centre Airport a couple of years ago. The flight paths imposed strict limits on vertical downtown growth for decades - I've heard some tower proposals and head office relocations eventually went to Calgary because of that. There's other things like the new Royal Alberta Museum and the proposed Galleria district.

I do worry about a glut of office space because so far the new buildings have mostly attracted lateral movement within downtown instead of drawing companies from the suburbs and from other cities - but time will tell.

• My $55G condo has quadrupled in value, at one about 2007 it was 6X my purchase price! At that time I had realtors constantly banging down my door asking if I'm ready to sell.
• Nightlife has moved back to downtown, mostly due to a moratorium on nightclubs on Whyte Ave. But we still need more live venues, and more places for a mature upscale clientele.
• Weekend nights, the sidewalks and patios are full of people.
• CN railyards now turned into a university campus and a series of strip malls. Will also see another strip mall where the Molson brewery used to be. Oh, and a new NHL arena. CP Railyards turned into strip malls, highrises, parks and walking trails.
• 105 St bridge over the CN railyards is gone, but we're getting an iconic new Walterdale Bridge to welcome travellers coming into downtown from the south.
• Hookers now ply their trade on the internet, but now a bigger street issue these days are homeless people, screaming drunks on oven cleaner, junkies and panhandlers.
• 104 St - a former no-man's land - is now one of downtown's destination streets. The retail scene on 4th there is currently in flux, especially with the now empty Sobeys where the old Cecil Hotel used to be.
• Although Sobeys has exited downtown, we still have Save On Foods, Safeway in Oliver Square, and a rumored new grocery for the arena district.
• Manulife 2 podium sitting empty but long rumored for a new tower.
• 102 Ave is about to be turned into an LRT and bike corridor

[Black Star]

55 k for a Condo.....Sure wish I bought in at those prices. I was to stupid buying cars that went fast to the displeasure of my father! He must have told me a dozen times...buy property/land...they don't make anymore of it!

[Mikemike]

The age restrictions are a major problem. I understand the idea, but in concrete buildings kid noise just isn't an issue. The age restriction on our pre-kids apartment is a big part of why we bought a house when we did.

You're spot-on about the benefit of not having to get kids into a car for every trip, and it's probably what I regret most about our location, especially WRT our kid's school. Driving all the time is probably the worst part of suburban life.

[Coldrsx]

^I'd rather have a young family next to me than a 19yr old male, yup getting old. Many times condo bylaws are very boilerplate and often are overlooked. Thankfully there are many options out there, it is just hard to track them down.

OP - Icon II is a good building, allows kids and is very urban.

I'd also look at many places in Oliver who appear to allow kids.

[big W]

I am living downtown with my wife and son who will be going to school soon. We would not have it any other way a we are looking for a larger place downtown. The problem is a lack of choices for young families downtown right now. What would really help is some nice townhouses. I have heard this a few times from some colleagues who would have stayed downtown when they got married. However as someone who has been downtown for a long time now, it is miles better than before and the best is yet to come.

[Coldrsx]

Our building has a large, 1400, sqft 2 + 2 + 2 balconies. Kid welcome

I know the owner

[urbanroo]

Yes, I'm finding that there are very few 3-bedroom units available, and that is what we would need if we were to have a second child. We don't need a McMansion, far from it, but most of the new units being thrown up right now seem to be designed for singles or young couples and are in the 800 square foot range. Another thing that worries me with young children is balconies on high rises. We are therefore trying to limit our search to low-rise buildings. This and the restriction so many buildings have against children is making the search very difficult, though not impossible as we do have leads. I agree that dense row-houses especially in the Oliver area would be ideal.

Does anyone know why so many (I'd say it's close to half, but that's just a guess) buildings have age restrictions? I really don't understand it. Is this unique to Edmonton? (I haven't encountered it before, not to this extent, certainly).

[urbanroo]

PS I haven't been to Edmonton in a year. My understanding is that the 104-street Sobey's is now closed (such a shame). Does anyone know what might be going into that building? It seems that without the Sobey's a lot of the eastern part of downtown becomes a food desert. Thanks!

[Coldrsx]

Shoppers Drugmart is going ^in across the street with a decent grocery section thanks to their new owners, Loblaws. Save On is 5 blocks, a 5 mins walk, no worries man.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by urbanroo

Yes, I'm finding that there are very few 3-bedroom units available, and that is what we would need if we were to have a second child. We don't need a McMansion, far from it, but most of the new units being thrown up right now seem to be designed for singles or young couples and are in the 800 square foot range. Another thing that worries me with young children is balconies on high rises. We are therefore trying to limit our search to low-rise buildings. This and the restriction so many buildings have against children is making the search very difficult, though not impossible as we do have leads. I agree that dense row-houses especially in the Oliver area would be ideal.

Does anyone know why so many (I'd say it's close to half, but that's just a guess) buildings have age restrictions? I really don't understand it. Is this unique to Edmonton? (I haven't encountered it before, not to this extent, certainly).

There are plenty of units ^in the 800-1400 range ^in Oliver, Downtown, Rossdale, Riverdale etc. Interesting point about balconies, most people I know with kids wants them, but I can understand the concern.

Boilerplate bylaws without thought and archaic management companies.

[hammeredtoast]

I believe enough has been noted by other forum posters already, but while DT yeg isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination, it is becoming super-good. What was it? The goal to have 20,000 people contributing to the downtown night population by 2020? That might be harder now with the changing economic climate, but who knows?

The City is trying, and has a ridiculously large planning and sustainability department, I feel, considering the city's population.

In terms of moving here, I'd suggest coming in about 2 years time. Wait until all the hassle's of construction are mostly completed and the City has begun to think of itself differently.

Here is a really condescending article from Toronto, telling dudes it is okay to move back to Edmonton again: http://goo.gl/ZGW6fl

[Qafir Arnaut]

I moved to downtown Edmonton from downtown Toronto 6 years ago. I've never owned a car in my life, and continue to plan not having one. I've seen tremendous improvements in those 6 years. Life is coming to downtown after 5 pm (albeit very very slowly.) Patios are emerging (albeit nowhere near what Toronto has). In terms of groceries you can now use Pogo to rent a car by the hour if you need to do groceries and run errands.

Yet I can't help but feel that as an 'expat' I pay a high price for Edmonton's isolation from the world. "4 hours away from anywhere" I call it. It suits my needs fine as I'm a washed up finance guy who can't handle the stress of Bay/Wall St. Seems like a good place to be an engineer. Everything revolves around housing and shelter. The world could end tomorrow the mail would still work in this town.

Personally I feel I'm paying "Toronto prices for a Winnipeg" lifestyle, but if it was home for you before you will like seeing it again.

[urbanroo]

Originally Posted by hammeredtoast

I believe enough has been noted by other forum posters already, but while DT yeg isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination, it is becoming super-good. What was it? The goal to have 20,000 people contributing to the downtown night population by 2020? That might be harder now with the changing economic climate, but who knows?

The City is trying, and has a ridiculously large planning and sustainability department, I feel, considering the city's population.

In terms of moving here, I'd suggest coming in about 2 years time. Wait until all the hassle's of construction are mostly completed and the City has begun to think of itself differently.

Here is a really condescending article from Toronto, telling dudes it is okay to move back to Edmonton again: http://goo.gl/ZGW6fl

Thanks for the condescending article from Toronto! I'd have thought most of these hockey kids would have grown up in small town Canada anyway, and should feel lucky to be moving to Edmonton, a great hockey town and far better than a place like Tampa Bay or Phoenix. Work committments have us moving to Edmonton now and not two years from now, but it's good to know that there might be something to stay for. Edmonton has a great river valley--a real gem, and something it should exploit even more (such a contrast to a place like Toronto, the most overhyped city I've ever encountered, sorry to pick on them, which has a totally uninteresting topography and has totally squandered the one geographic advantage it does have, its lakefront). I also wish Edmonton would embrace its climate more and develop its own distinctive architectural style. So many of the white stucco buildings put up in the last two decades make a lot of sense in California but look awful in Edmonton when covered in snow...just too much white. The outlet mall is another import from the American sun belt that simply doesn't make any sense in Edmonton!

[urbanroo]

Originally Posted by Qafir Arnaut

I moved to downtown Edmonton from downtown Toronto 6 years ago. I've never owned a car in my life, and continue to plan not having one. I've seen tremendous improvements in those 6 years. Life is coming to downtown after 5 pm (albeit very very slowly.) Patios are emerging (albeit nowhere near what Toronto has). In terms of groceries you can now use Pogo to rent a car by the hour if you need to do groceries and run errands.

Yet I can't help but feel that as an 'expat' I pay a high price for Edmonton's isolation from the world. "4 hours away from anywhere" I call it. It suits my needs fine as I'm a washed up finance guy who can't handle the stress of Bay/Wall St. Seems like a good place to be an engineer. Everything revolves around housing and shelter. The world could end tomorrow the mail would still work in this town.

Personally I feel I'm paying "Toronto prices for a Winnipeg" lifestyle, but if it was home for you before you will like seeing it again.

Thanks for your perspective! I love the Toronto brewery district (sorry for bashing the city in the above post, it's got a lot Edmonton can learn from) and I sure wish the Edmonton version was more than a generic strip mall! Edmonton must be one of the most isolated big cities on earth (I think Perth is the winner). Thanks for the note about the car-sharing service, Pogo. Have you had good experiences with it? Does it work? Are there usually cars available?