Are most immigrant-origin ethnic enclaves only sustained by new immigration?

[Capsicum]

Rural ethnic enclaves settled by immigrants early on can last a while (eg. Amish, Mennonite communities), but it seems like urban ethnic enclaves can only last so long once the immigration that sustains them ends.

Little Italy neighborhoods don't last very long after Italian immigration was no longer a big deal. A lot of former Jewish neighborhoods are revitalized by newer, recent immigrants from Israel or the former Soviet Union, as the older waves assimilate and leave. Even Chinatowns are sometimes starting to go away by Chinese immigrants heading towards the suburbs.

Many ethnic enclaves not sustained by recent immigrants willing to pay a premium to live there often disappear through gentrification (if they are near desirable parts of the city) or go away from assimilation after their kids choose to move away or their specialized shops/products no longer find a demand among their assimilated descendants (unless they can go upscale and be "touristy").

Do most ethnic enclaves really require international immigration to sustain them (eg. another wave of "the same" or similar ethnic groups, such as say other Asian immigrants choosing to live in older Chinatowns), or are there any major cases of native/local born people sustaining an enclave?

What kinds of ethnic enclaves have high %'s of native born living within them, and high %s of that ethnocultural group, or at least a strong local ethnic economy (eg. products, shops etc.)?

(I guess, if you count long-standing African American neighborhoods in the Northern US after the Great Migration, though that's not really an immigrant example, and many of them are products of segregation historically rather than voluntary affinity)

Also, are there ever inter-state or inter-regional migrations that sustain ethnic enclaves? Like for instance Asian Americans (instead of international immigration of Asians) from other states or small towns within the same state moving to Asian ethnic enclaves in the nearest big city? The only thing is that if assimilated kids of immigrants are mobile enough to be willing to move around from city to city, by then, they'd probably not choose an enclave.

[Illithid Dude]

Anecdotally, Koreatown in Los Angeles is sustaining itself through the second and third generation children of the original immigrants returning and taking up residences. Koreatown is becoming progressively more upscale while still maintaining distinctly Korean roots, with dozens of modern, ostensibly hip Korean restaurants opening up, as well as new Korean stores and malls.

[Crawford]

Ultra Orthodox communities don't really change. I can't think of any that have disappeared.

Even gentrification doesn't seem that much of a threat. The Hasidic enclave in South Williamsburg is still holding strong, despite being surrounded by some of the most intense gentrification anywhere.

[montréaliste]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Ultra Orthodox communities don't really change. I can't think of any that have disappeared.

Even gentrification doesn't seem that much of a threat. The Hasidic enclave in South Williamsburg is still holding strong, despite being surrounded by some of the most intense gentrification anywhere.

If anything, they do change in terms of growth. Ultra Orthodox folks have big families.

[Emprise du Lion]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Rural ethnic enclaves settled by immigrants early on can last a while (eg. Amish, Mennonite communities), but it seems like urban ethnic enclaves can only last so long once the immigration that sustains them ends.

Little Italy neighborhoods don't last very long after Italian immigration was no longer a big deal.

Not always. St. Louis' Italian neighborhood, The Hill, is still going strong with virtually no immigration from Italy for decades at this point.

Chicago's probably would have lasted longer had Boss Daley not demolished most of it in order to build the University of Illinois-Chicago campus.

[10023]

Originally Posted by Emprise du Lion

Not always. St. Louis' Italian neighborhood, The Hill, is still going strong with virtually no immigration from Italy for decades at this point.

Chicago's probably would have lasted longer had Boss Daley not demolished most of it in order to build the University of Illinois-Chicago campus.

Is it really an Italian enclave though? Or is it just a street full of mediocre red sauce joints and bakeries selling cannolis?

Little Italy in Manhattan is still “intact” but it’s definitely the latter.

[Emprise du Lion]

Originally Posted by 10023

Is it really an Italian enclave though? Or is it just a street full of mediocre red sauce joints and bakeries selling cannolis?

Little Italy in Manhattan is still “intact” but it’s definitely the latter.

It remains a close knit community (or insular depending on how you want to look at) that's still largely Italian. You'll find bakeries, delis, grocery stores, sit down restaurants, etc scattered throughout. There's an Italian language newspaper that's still published twice monthly, in addition to a Catholic church that performs mass in Italian monthly.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Illithid Dude

Anecdotally, Koreatown in Los Angeles is sustaining itself through the second and third generation children of the original immigrants returning and taking up residences. Koreatown is becoming progressively more upscale while still maintaining distinctly Korean roots, with dozens of modern, ostensibly hip Korean restaurants opening up, as well as new Korean stores and malls.

Originally Posted by 10023

Is it really an Italian enclave though? Or is it just a street full of mediocre red sauce joints and bakeries selling cannolis?

Little Italy in Manhattan is still “intact” but it’s definitely the latter.

Originally Posted by Emprise du Lion

It remains a close knit community (or insular depending on how you want to look at) that's still largely Italian. You'll find bakeries, delis, grocery stores, sit down restaurants, etc scattered throughout. There's an Italian language newspaper that's still published twice monthly, in addition to a Catholic church that performs mass in Italian monthly.

Do these cases generally involve having turned the enclave into more a commercial than residential area (I usually associate preferring to live in an enclave with the preferences of immigrants, but the businesses are patronized by the cultural community who may be native born, plus outsiders/tourists that might visit, but no longer living in the enclave)?

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Illithid Dude

Anecdotally, Koreatown in Los Angeles is sustaining itself through the second and third generation children of the original immigrants returning and taking up residences. Koreatown is becoming progressively more upscale while still maintaining distinctly Korean roots, with dozens of modern, ostensibly hip Korean restaurants opening up, as well as new Korean stores and malls.

Koreatown is mostly Latino these days, isn't it?

Originally Posted by Crawford

Ultra Orthodox communities don't really change. I can't think of any that have disappeared.

Even more than that, new Ultra Orthodox communities continue to be developed, both in outlying suburbs and in entirely new areas (Cleveland Heights has been bolstering its historic Jewish community by recruiting ultra-orthodox Jews from Brooklyn).

Really, the Amish and Hasids are pretty unique in the U.S. due to the degree to which they resist assimilation. Even given the big differences in their cultures, you can see from their commonalities what is needed in order to have a minority group not assimilate: rejecting the public school system entirely, and socializing as little as possible outside of your own group.

[10023]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Do these cases generally involve having turned the enclave into more a commercial than residential area (I usually associate preferring to live in an enclave with the preferences of immigrants, but the businesses are patronized by the cultural community who may be native born, plus outsiders/tourists that might visit, but no longer living in the enclave)?

It would be impossible for a neighborhood in Manhattan to be a residential immigrant enclave. Apartments in Little Italy sell for millions. It’s just the restaurants and shops on Mulberry St that are “Italian themed”, in the same way that many types of retail cluster in a particular street in a city. And it is only Mulberry St now. The rest of the historical Little Italy has been absorbed into Chinatown.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by 10023

It would be impossible for a neighborhood in Manhattan to be a residential immigrant enclave. Apartments in Little Italy sell for millions. It’s just the restaurants and shops on Mulberry St that are “Italian themed”, in the same way that many types of retail cluster in a particular street in a city. And it is only Mulberry St now. The rest of the historical Little Italy has been absorbed into Chinatown.

How does Chinatown survive then? Surely, NYC's richer Chinese aren't propping up the old enclave, are they (since nowadays Chinese immigrants bypass old Chinatowns and tend to set up new enclaves elsewhere), and assimilated Chinese aren't going back to live there, right?

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

How does Chinatown survive then? Surely, NYC's richer Chinese aren't propping up the old enclave, are they (since nowadays Chinese immigrants bypass old Chinatowns and tend to set up new enclaves elsewhere), and assimilated Chinese aren't going back to live there, right?

Rent control. The working class/poor elderly in Manhattan Chinatown can live in their units for the rest of their lives (and sometimes their kids can inherit for the rest of their lives).

Manhattan Chinatown hasn't received new immigrants for 30 years. The Fujianese were the last wave. Later waves went to Queens and Brooklyn.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Rent control. The working class/poor elderly in Manhattan Chinatown can live in their units for the rest of their lives (and sometimes their kids can inherit for the rest of their lives).

Manhattan Chinatown hasn't received new immigrants for 30 years. The Fujianese were the last wave. Later waves went to Queens and Brooklyn.

How come it was able to preserve Chinatown but not the neighboring Little Italy; Or did rent control come too late to save Little Italy (before the Italians left) from gentrification?

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

How come it was able to preserve Chinatown but not the neighboring Little Italy; Or did rent control come too late to save Little Italy (before the Italians left) from gentrification?

Yes, rent control was too late. It began during WW2 and wasn't strengthened until recent decades.

Mulberrry St. is still very Italian, though (but not authentic). Italians just don't live there. But I suspect it will still be there 50 years from now. It isn't shrinking (anymore).

[10023]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Yes, rent control was too late. It began during WW2 and wasn't strengthened until recent decades.

Mulberrry St. is still very Italian, though (but not authentic). Italians just don't live there. But I suspect it will still be there 50 years from now. It isn't shrinking (anymore).

No, it’s been preserved as a tourist attraction. And the restaurants are mostly terrible. The only good ones were relatively new (Torrisi Italian Specialties and Parm next door, both owned by the same guys, and the first has closed). DiPalo’s deli isn’t bad.

Otherwise the best restaurant in “Little Italy” is probably Balaboosta, which is Middle Eastern food.

[Docere]

When did Mulberry St. Little Italy cease to be a residential Italian area? I'm guessing by the 1970s or so. At that time it would have been a much diminished enclave from say half a century before with a few elderly hangers on. It shrivelled away as immigrants died off and the American-born moved to the outer boroughs or suburbs. I don't think there was any sudden mass exodus though (though there was I believe a more abrupt one in East Harlem, which was actually the largest Italian neighorhood in NYC until WWII I think).

An Italian immigrant who arrived in say 1960 wouldn't have gone to Little Italy with its dwindling holdout of Italian Americans from the early 20th century (or to East Harlem which was no longer appealing to Italians) but would have gone to outer borough Italian neighborhoods like Bensonhurst.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by 10023

No, it’s been preserved as a tourist attraction. And the restaurants are mostly terrible. The only good ones were relatively new (Torrisi Italian Specialties and Parm next door, both owned by the same guys, and the first has closed). DiPalo’s deli isn’t bad.

Otherwise the best restaurant in “Little Italy” is probably Balaboosta, which is Middle Eastern food.

Which raises a related question -- even if enclaves later become commercial districts not residential, is it inevitable that "authenticity" suffers and gentrification makes the products touristy and not authentic?

Lots of people talk about how Little Italy neighborhoods in many cities no longer have "real Italian food", how Chinese cuisine is way better in suburbs now than in "old Chinatowns".

I see no reason why the authentic versions can't remain and tourists can't appreciate "authentic" food, products, items etc. -- after all if the tourist is going to want to drop money to tour the enclave in the first place, wouldn't authenticity be what they're after? Why would a tourist want to visit another city for Olive-Garden style Italian or Panda Express-style Chinese when he/she could get it at a shopping mall or plaza in their own hometown.

Or why even if assimilated, the "old immigrants" can't hand down the know-how or pass the buck to their native-born successors. It's not like recipes and stuff are literally baked in the blood and genes and die with the last generation. Okay, the chefs may be like 80 years old or something by now, but so many cities brag about having restaurants and diners that are like decades old (eg. some 1950s style diner, or some restaurant that has been open since 1930-something).

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Ultra Orthodox communities don't really change. I can't think of any that have disappeared.

Even gentrification doesn't seem that much of a threat. The Hasidic enclave in South Williamsburg is still holding strong, despite being surrounded by some of the most intense gentrification anywhere.

True, NYC's Jewish population grew between 2002 and 2011 because of growth in Brooklyn (mostly among the Hasidim).

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Docere

True, NYC's Jewish population grew between 2002 and 2011 because of growth in Brooklyn (mostly among the Hasidim).

But it will be interesting to see if this growth is maintained. Jewish school enrollment is exploding in places like Lakewood and KJ, and real estate pressures are leading young families to new metros far afield.

But, at the same time, Jewish school enrollment numbers within NYC proper continue to rise. In fact the city-proper growth appears to be accelerating. Maybe at some point gentrification stops the growth, but not yet.

https://nypost.com/2018/10/10/yeshiv...plodes-in-nyc/

[Capsicum]

Jewish population growth in most US cities is mostly due to natural growth, right? Not really immigration?

Many ethnic communities don't really grow that much due to natural growth so maybe that's another reason why their enclaves can't really expand without immigration. For example, Chinese immigration is still high, but if Chinese immigration stopped, their enclaves in the US and Canada wouldn't keep getting so big, Chinese American and Canadian birthrates are low.