Does Western Alienation exist, and how can we fix it?

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by SHOFEAR

If "car" infrastructure is now user pay, then I hope all other transportation infrastructure is user pay as well.

Let me check a box on my tax form where my dollars go to please. I'm pretty confident, car infrastructure would come out the big winner.

Lol. No, you will never have that because the idea is the type of idea a child would come up with.

Gas tax pays for some of the infrastructure. It's subsidized, like other transport.

[MacLac]

Originally Posted by lubicon

Not entirely sure what you are meaning here, but if the point is that multi national energy companies would control our resources that is not true. Most of the multi nationals have exited Canada or downsized significantly, our resources are managed mainly by home grown Canadian operators.

Exactly! Ie, Nexen and Progress are both 100% foreign owned but locally operated. Both have offices still in Calgary and field offices spread throughout.

[SHOFEAR]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Lol. No, you will never have that because the idea is the type of idea a child would come up with.

Gas tax pays for some of the infrastructure. It's subsidized, like other transport.

Subsidized through what, taxes? So again, pretty easy, let people choose what types of infrastructure their tax dollars support.

In the case of Edmonton, transportation is broken down as follows:
-75% vehicles
-13% Transit

But Spending (2019 expenditure budget) is as follows
-5.9% Roads and traffic management
-13.5% Public transit (and valley line)

70% of funding is directed to 13% of the users.

Now, you could take this a step further and include grants from other levels of government. pretty sure transit grants makes up a hell of a lot more than 13%.

[dleung]

That doesn't factor in highways and regional roads. Also how much did the land occupied by roadways cost? Who pays for the cost of pollution of which 40% is emitted by vehicles alone? How many billions did taxpayers spend on bailing out automakers?

[SHOFEAR]

Originally Posted by dleung

That doesn't factor in highways and regional roads. Also how much did the land occupied by roadways cost? Who pays for the cost of pollution of which 40% is emitted by vehicles alone? How many billions did taxpayers spend on bailing out automakers?

I can nickel and dime things too to offset additional costs. Want a big one? What do you think the average tax contribution is from somebody who drives everyday vs takes the bus?

The urban elite think vehicles are subsidized. That's fine, but then they should be fully supportive of a system where all public money is removed from transportation (taxes lowered accordingly) and everything is 100% user paid.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by SHOFEAR

The urban elite think vehicles are subsidized. That's fine, but then they should be fully supportive of a system where all public money is removed from transportation (taxes lowered accordingly) and everything is 100% user paid.

Why should they be libertarian by default just because you are?

Public transit has huge economic benefits. Cities could not exist without it, there's literally not enough space.

[lio45]

As everyone switches to EVs, it would be easy to replace the lost gas tax revenue by mileage-based taxes (the equivalent of tolls). The standard-issue license plates would have a GPS in them, and you'd be billed a tiny fraction of a cent per kilometer driven. I'd allow the option to have a GPS-free vehicle to accommodate the paranoid Don't Let Big Brother Watch types, in exchange for a large-ish yearly flat tax ($1,000 or $2,000 or whatever is reasonable; it just has to be equivalent to a hell of a lot of driving, about the max that's physically possible.)

[misher]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Why should they be libertarian by default just because you are?

Public transit has huge economic benefits. Cities could not exist without it, there's literally not enough space.

But who will pay for it once everyone takes it. Naturally the people who take it. Once you eliminate the rich and luxury goods the poor suddenly have to pay for everything.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by SHOFEAR

Subsidized through what, taxes? So again, pretty easy, let people choose what types of infrastructure their tax dollars support.

In the case of Edmonton, transportation is broken down as follows:
-75% vehicles
-13% Transit

But Spending (2019 expenditure budget) is as follows
-5.9% Roads and traffic management
-13.5% Public transit (and valley line)

70% of funding is directed to 13% of the users.

Now, you could take this a step further and include grants from other levels of government. pretty sure transit grants makes up a hell of a lot more than 13%.

Your idea is idiotic. I, and everyone else would just opt to pay no taxes. We have democracy already, and it takes place at the ballot box, not the tax form.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Why should they be libertarian by default just because you are?

Public transit has huge economic benefits. Cities could not exist without it, there's literally not enough space.

There's no such thing as a true libertarian (or at least, vanishingly few), just selfish, ignorant people. They aren't against public spending, just only on things they want.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by misher

But who will pay for it once everyone takes it. Naturally the people who take it. Once you eliminate the rich and luxury goods the poor suddenly have to pay for everything.

Such strange logic you have.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by milomilo

There's no such thing as a true libertarian (or at least, vanishingly few), just selfish, ignorant people. They aren't against public spending, just only on things they want.

LOL yep. I do shake my head seeing all of the armchair libertarians in here. Like 15 yr old boys who just read the wikipedia page.

[Mikemike]

Originally Posted by misher

But who will pay for it once everyone takes it. Naturally the people who take it. Once you eliminate the rich and luxury goods the poor suddenly have to pay for everything.

The people. Cool thing with transit is a that if it’s well used it can be efficient. We rarely use transit, but if service were improved and made “free” at the fare box we would use it, and happily pay the necessary tax increase because we could lose the second car and come out ahead.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by milomilo

It's a misrepresentation to say 'getting their paws in there'. Roads and other car infrastructure need to be paid for. Is it fairer they are paid for entirely through general taxation, or should at least some be paid for by the users of the infrastructure?

Yes, it was a little unfair for me to state that seeing as roads do need to be mainatained, etc.I stand corrected..I guess my point was that once EV become common place, it will be just as expensive to keep charged as fuel. That or other new fees, or tolls will be introduced like others have suggested.

[misher]

Originally Posted by Mikemike

The people. Cool thing with transit is a that if it’s well used it can be efficient. We rarely use transit, but if service were improved and made “free” at the fare box we would use it, and happily pay the necessary tax increase because we could lose the second car and come out ahead.

If you think people will be ok paying triple for a bus pass then I wish you luck.

[SHOFEAR]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Why should they be libertarian by default just because you are?

Public transit has huge economic benefits. Cities could not exist without it, there's literally not enough space.

Christ. This whole thing started when somebody else commented on car drivers not paying their share...which is absolutely false.

Know what cities couldn't exist without? roads.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Razor

I guess my point was that once EV become common place, it will be just as expensive to keep charged as fuel.

Not at all, though.

It will cost more, sure (we all agree EVs are currently dodging the implicit/unassigned "road tax" portion of gas taxes) but it won't come close to burning black gold to move around.

Quick calculations with rough numbers:

Approximations:
- Gas taxes are ~25% of the price of gas
- EVs are ~10x cheaper than ICE cars to drive

Result:
- EVs with the full taxes now cost 3.5 times what they used to cost per kilometer driven, but they're still ~3x cheaper than ICE cars to drive.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by lio45

Approximations:
- Gas taxes are ~25% of the price of gas
- EVs are ~10x cheaper than ICE cars to drive

Result:
- EVs with the full taxes now cost 3.5 times what they used to cost per kilometer driven, but they're still ~3x cheaper than ICE cars to drive.

EVs aren't 10x cheaper to drive. About 6-7x cheaper here in BC, and we have some of the biggest differences between gasoline and electricity pricing.

Plenty of room to tax more, but it gets complicated because straight up taxing electricity more than just having GST/PST would be rather regressive as it's a core household cost for everybody rich and poor.

We all use roads in some capacity and we all benefit from them. I think bridge and highway tolls might be an option, but the rest should be made up from other existing tax sources. Ideally consumption taxes.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

EVs aren't 10x cheaper to drive. About 6-7x cheaper here in BC, and we have some of the biggest differences between gasoline and electricity pricing.

I just checked Quebec's official government website and it estimates (a conservative, IMO) 8x cheaper to drive.

In practice (I went with my sis' data from them going from a Mazda6 to a Tesla Model 3) ~10x is a good approximation in the real world. But okay, even if we stick to the government's 8x my example still works to fully roadtaxed EVs being a hell of a lot cheaper to operate than ICE vehicles.

Obviously, it depends on your driving habits. A typical gasoline car can do from ~6L/100km to ~12L/100km (these two values are not random, but rather, respectively, my own average over several thousand kms with my car vs my gf's average over several thousand kms with hers).

(These figures do cover the realistic spectrum from economical car mostly freeway driven to large car driven with more of a lead foot pretty well, IMO.)

So right there you've got basically a factor of two that you're introducting for an EV switch between me and my gf.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by lio45

I just checked Quebec's official government website and it estimates (a conservative, IMO) 8x cheaper to drive.

I'm talking as somebody who went from a gasoline car to an EV.

Gas prices are all over the place, but let's look at a BC example:

6L/100kms @ $1.50/L = $9 to go 100kms
10L/100kms @ $1.50/L = $15 to go 100kms

Most EVs are in this range:
15kWh/100kms @ $0.10c/kWh = $1.50 to go 100kms

Obviously gas prices bounce around a lot (they are only $1.30 in Vancouver today), and current EVs are more along the lines of smaller-mid size cars, not gas guzzling vans or trucks, yet.

[lio45]

Also depends on what one's commute is. My gf's old job was a 30 min commute on a freeway that is generally traffic-free. If instead you're spending 30 min idling in traffic morning and evening, an EV will result in much greater gains for you, even with the same driving habits (hypermiler or lead foot) and the same vehicle.