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  #221  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2015, 6:28 AM
kornbread kornbread is offline
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Originally Posted by GoldenBoot View Post
Torre Sevilla/Cajasol (the tower depicted above) was a 1.9 million SF master development. The tower, itself, consists of 732,000 SF of space (roughly 18,000-19,000 SF floor plates). About 40% larger than the proposed Frost. So, although it is a really cool tower, and an example of PCP's work, I do not believe it is not a good representation of what Frost will (may) become...unless Weston increases the SPEC space by ~300,000 SF.
Of course; I didn't say it would be an example in terms of similarities. I said similar design elements could come into play as to how the site could tie into the creek project, the streets and the planned small park to the east. Instead of just opening towards the park, I could see them pulling the park setting through the site.

Right now you could fit the Weston tower on that lot and only take up about 25%. I don't see this building having a larger floor plate than that so there really is room to be creative.
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  #222  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2015, 3:23 PM
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Originally Posted by sirkingwilliam View Post
It won't be between 20 and 30 floors. Thats all I'll say.
Are you thinking more?

Based on the numbers that have been thrown out there, the only way that it is more than 30 is if there is a pedestal garage (unless something drastic changes with the numbers of course). However, with such a big lot I am not sure how much of a pedestal, if any there will be. I think that we can expect a garage with ground level retail, regardless of whether it is a pedestal or not (which is good).

My expectations are set at 25-30, but will be happy if those are exceeded. At 30 stories (with a decent crown) we could be looking at 500' and a new San Antonio tallest.

Looking forward to see some of the first concepts.
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  #223  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2015, 9:59 PM
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Yes, I agree. We must (at this time) temper our expectations and celebrate that this building, if built, will be the first downtown office building constructed in a generation.

Take a look at this...it is McKinney & Olive, a building currently U/C in Dallas (designed by PCP) and is one of the most talked about new buildings in town. Most love it.

However, McKinney & Olive is going to be 585,000 SF, 145,000 SF larger than a 440,000 SF Frost tower. Based on the 440,000 SF Frost proposal (and common office tower floor plate sizes of 15,000-20,000 SF), Frost should be between 20 and 30 levels of office. As already stated, it could be taller if a parking is located in its podium.

Last edited by ILUVSAT; Sep 23, 2015 at 10:16 PM.
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  #224  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2015, 4:13 AM
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Originally Posted by STLtoSA View Post
Are you thinking more?

Based on the numbers that have been thrown out there, the only way that it is more than 30 is if there is a pedestal garage (unless something drastic changes with the numbers of course). However, with such a big lot I am not sure how much of a pedestal, if any there will be. I think that we can expect a garage with ground level retail, regardless of whether it is a pedestal or not (which is good).

My expectations are set at 25-30, but will be happy if those are exceeded. At 30 stories (with a decent crown) we could be looking at 500' and a new San Antonio tallest.

Looking forward to see some of the first concepts.
What I posted is what I posted and it isn't unsubstantiated.

P.s.

It isn't second or third hand hearsay either.
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  #225  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2015, 8:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirkingwilliam View Post
What I posted is what I posted and it isn't unsubstantiated.

P.s.

It isn't second or third hand hearsay either.
31 floors it is!

Just kidding.

A little thing about hearsay...it may not be hearsay to you, but it is to everyone else.

Without any change in what was part of the original proposal there is no reason to expect more than 35 floors (including garage).

Until something is released about an increase in spec space or another major tenant, it is all rumors and hearsay.
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  #226  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2015, 6:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILUVSAT View Post
Yes, I agree. We must (at this time) temper our expectations and celebrate that this building, if built, will be the first downtown office building constructed in a generation.

Take a look at this...it is McKinney & Olive, a building currently U/C in Dallas (designed by PCP) and is one of the most talked about new buildings in town. Most love it.

However, McKinney & Olive is going to be 585,000 SF, 145,000 SF larger than a 440,000 SF Frost tower. Based on the 440,000 SF Frost proposal (and common office tower floor plate sizes of 15,000-20,000 SF), Frost should be between 20 and 30 levels of office. As already stated, it could be taller if a parking is located in its podium.
Parking levels don't actually add that much height. For example the most recent office tower to finish in Austin has 15 floors of office above 12 floors of parking, plus 2 floors of amenities. Those 12 floors of parking only account for 132 feet of the building's height. The 15 floors of office space add up to 189 feet.

If the Frost Bank Headquarters is double the office floor count with 30, that should put it at 378 feet worth of office floors. And then if we assume it'll have 12 levels of parking - taking it another 132 feet, that would be 510 feet. And that's without considering anything above the main roof. The crown on the Frost Bank Tower in Austin rises exactly 100 feet above the edge of the main roof. Considering that, the new building in San Antonio could be around 610 feet tall. Of course if it has a more modest roof like the building in Austin I used as an example above for the numbers, then it would be more modest of course, but still not bad. That building I used as a reference is 397 feet tall and only has 15 floors of office space. The new Frost HQ could be another 189 feet taller than that with the 15 extra office floors - so maybe 586 feet if it has a modest top. Pelli Clarke Pelli has some more modest building tops, but the crowns they do are usually spectacular. The firm that designed the Frost building in Austin (Duda/Paine) actually was actually part of the Pelli firm originally.
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  #227  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2015, 5:48 PM
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Since the height was estimated to be about 518ft, and the square footage was estimated at 400,000 square feet, then we should expect the width and length of the building to be about 100 feet, about the same as the Tower Life Building. If we estimate the average floor height at 13 feet (10,000 square feet per floor), then we should end up with a tower of about 40 stories, including the lobby, roof, and mechanical floor(s).

Last edited by Fireoutofclay; Sep 25, 2015 at 6:15 PM.
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  #228  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2015, 6:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Fireoutofclay View Post
Since the height was estimated to be about 518ft, and the square footage was estimated at 400,000 square feet, then we should expect the width and length of the building to be about 100 feet, about the same as the Tower Life Building. If we estimate the average floor height at 13 feet (10,000 square feet per floor), then we should end up with a tower of about 40 stories, including the lobby, roof, and mechanical floor(s).
I posted the quote below back in May. the figures in the quote are based on the 400,000 sq' as well as the amount of podium garage floors, lobby, and one speculative floor above garage, but below Frost that were shown in the original proposal.

Quote:
I don't think there is much question to whether or not this will be the tallest downtown building.

These are the heights to top:
~470' - Marriott River Center
~456' - Weston

The Weston Center may be 500,000 sq ft, but square footage is not a good predictor of building height. The writer touched on that, but the overall feeling that I got from the piece was that the writer was skeptical or hesitant to believe that this will become the cities tallest. However, I share the "who the heck cares attitude". This development is going to be great and all of the addition developments that are part of the deal and others that might spur because of them are going to charge that side of downtown.

29 floors - 988,000 sqft - 557' -- Thomas Eagleton Federal Courthouse
33 floors - 545,500 sqft - 515' -- Frost Bank Tower (Austin)

These are two building with large floor plates. I don't think that the massing of this building will be the same, and it can't to be the tallest at 400,000 sqft.

I envision something similar in height and floor count to Frost Bank Tower in Austin. The base may be similar in size, but I believe there will be more set backs and maybe slope (especially above the Frost Floors).

I calculated what the height would be based on the podium garage, sloped/set back tower, with a crown and got 509', which is fairly close to the 518' in the proposal. The proposal showed 29 floors, but I broke up the tower by square footage and got 30 floors.

1 - Lobby - 30,000 sqft
6 - Garage
1 - speculative space @ 16,000 sqft
12 - Frost @ 16,000 sqft/fl
10 - Speculative Space @ avg 13,000 sqft/floor
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  #229  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2015, 9:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STLtoSA View Post
The initial proposal had diagrams displaying what the heights might be. See below:





I really like that the plan is for retail on the first couple levels of the Parking garage. I hope that sticks.

I am not a huge fan of podium garages and this is a large site, but since this might be in the 25-35 range, I will take it to get the extra height.

518 would make it the tallest in the city. That 546 figure for the Marriott is bogus. It is really in the 470-490 range.

It will be pretty exciting seeing this project move forward, as well as the other ancillary projects that are part of the plan.
Hmm, I missed this diagram. I see now what you mean. So I guess this building will most likely have a crown. Eerie. I am not a huge fan of podium garages either. My vote would be for the 458 footer, as I predict that the gods over at Pelli Clarke Pelli will show us how irrelevant height can be. I bet those guys can make a turd taste like a truffle.
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  #230  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2015, 10:36 PM
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Detached garages are the worst, though. They're a waste of land and height. The ones in Austin are hated by the Austin forumers, myself included, and often create dead zones with no street life or gaps in it. Parking podiums at least appear to be more aesthetically pleasing and encourage the architect and developer to conceal and make the garage at least appear more attractive. Detached garages look cheap and always seem like an afterthought. Ideally parking should be below ground to free up more property above ground for other better uses, but on big lots developers tend to get lazy/cheap.
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  #231  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2015, 4:35 PM
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Smile Graham Weston Outlines Steps to Retain Skiled Workforce DT; Mentions Frost Tower

Article in EN published yesterday. http://www.expressnews.com/150years/...ld-6529996.php To keep our skilled young workers, we must build a vibrant downtown

"A few months ago, group of business leaders launched an organization called TechBloc, to help make San Antonio more tech friendly. Its inaugural event at the Pearl overflowed its venue, with more than 900 in attendance..."

In the article Weston mentions Frost Tower. Saying, "Soon, Frost Bank will occupy a new tower...the city's tallest." So maybe the initial size/SF of the building has been redrawn. Safe to say it will be over 30 stories tall then.
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  #232  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2015, 5:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinFromTexas View Post
Detached garages are the worst, though. They're a waste of land and height. The ones in Austin are hated by the Austin forumers, myself included, and often create dead zones with no street life or gaps in it. Parking podiums at least appear to be more aesthetically pleasing and encourage the architect and developer to conceal and make the garage at least appear more attractive. Detached garages look cheap and always seem like an afterthought. Ideally parking should be below ground to free up more property above ground for other better uses, but on big lots developers tend to get lazy/cheap.
It's here and there. I know of podiums that don't accomplish much at street level. The key to any garage component is the particular zoning where it's located. RIO and FBZ (a combination of the two where in San Antonio FBZ will trump RIO regarding structured parking) will require the garage (if it's detached) to be wrapped with retail or residential unless a variance is granted. RIO is going to require that it be glad in a manner that's comparable to the tower itself.

That being said, structured parking taking up an entire block is somewhat wasted space, but I guess that all depends on where it's located.
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  #233  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2015, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAinthe21stC View Post
In the article Weston mentions Frost Tower. Saying, "Soon, Frost Bank will occupy a new tower...the city's tallest." So maybe the initial size/SF of the building has been redrawn. Safe to say it will be over 30 stories tall then.
It's VERY safe to assume this.
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  #234  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2015, 1:15 AM
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Pelli Clarke Pelli has done some amazing work. Great choice by Frost and their search team. I fully expect to see a tower that "fits" with downtown.
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  #235  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2015, 1:02 AM
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I can see a flow similar to this rendering of PCP's McKinney & Olive Building in Dallas. Imagining that the street in the foreground is Flores Street with Travis Street on the right, I can see how the landscaping, as well as some architectural elements, can continue towards the creek. Personally, I would flip this image horizontally; more oak trees could be saved with the parking garage on the Travis Street side. I just love those oak trees, I'd hate to see them go.

Rendering by Pelli Clarke Pelli Architects

http://www.mckinneyandolive.com/about.aspx


from Pelli Clarke Pelli website
http://pcparch.com/project/mckinney-olive

Last edited by Fireoutofclay; Sep 29, 2015 at 5:03 PM.
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  #236  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2015, 2:03 PM
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I agree with your point about the trees. They're best live oaks downtown (apart from the big ones at Alamo Plaza) and it would be a shame to see them go.
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  #237  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2015, 8:09 PM
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Pelli Clarke Pelli designs San Antonio’s first new office tower in three decades
Olivia Martin
The Architects Newspaper
Tuesday, September 22, 2015
http://blog.archpaper.com/2015/09/ne...-clarke-pelli/

Not a lengthy read but a good tidbit and a cool model...
Quote:
The new tower is proposed to be 400,000 square feet, have an emphasis on sustainability, and will be integrated with the new design of the San Pedro Creek area, where architect David Adjaye just revealed his own art gallery. PCP’s plan will include a new bridge and plaza.
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  #238  
Old Posted Oct 5, 2015, 2:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireoutofclay View Post
Pelli Clarke Pelli designs San Antonio’s first new office tower in three decades
Olivia Martin
The Architects Newspaper
Tuesday, September 22, 2015
http://blog.archpaper.com/2015/09/ne...-clarke-pelli/

Not a lengthy read but a good tidbit and a cool model...
What a funny and poorly researched blog post.

Quote:
The new Frost Bank location will take up the current addresses of 114 West Commerce, 319 West Travis, and 403 North Flores.
The blogger is confusing the agreed upon land swap to Weston/Urban as the tower location and then posts an oblique of Municipal Plaza.



Still it is good pub....just poor research.
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  #239  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2015, 1:07 AM
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New Frost Bank HQ needs 'wow' factor to trigger more downtown development, city leader says
W. Scott Bailey
San Antonio Business Journal
Jun 8, 2015, 11:13am CDT
http://www.bizjournals.com/sanantoni...gger-more.html

This older article was posted previously, but I missed this part. I was under the impression that the HDRC would have little to no say on this building.

Quote:
The new Frost headquarters tower will be constructed on a site that falls within the city’s Military Plaza Historic District. Therefore, according to Lori Houston, director of San Antonio’s Center City Development and Operations Department, the Historic and Design Review Commission will have a key voice in the ultimate design of the new tower. That has some individuals predicting that the final product may be more complementary than contemporary.
I'm sure it'll all work out, but I have to admit I was relieved when I thought the HDRC was out of the picture.
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  #240  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2015, 2:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireoutofclay View Post
New Frost Bank HQ needs 'wow' factor to trigger more downtown development, city leader says
W. Scott Bailey
San Antonio Business Journal
Jun 8, 2015, 11:13am CDT
http://www.bizjournals.com/sanantoni...gger-more.html

This older article was posted previously, but I missed this part. I was under the impression that the HDRC would have little to no say on this building.

I'm sure it'll all work out, but I have to admit I was relieved when I thought the HDRC was out of the picture.
Oh, the HRDC is involved?

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