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  #21  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2009, 7:18 PM
ScrappyPeg ScrappyPeg is offline
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I'm no expert on the legalities of the treaties, but didn't the Feds pay out millions to Peguis recently? If so, did this not satisfy their obligations to Peguis?
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  #22  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2009, 10:39 PM
MichaelM MichaelM is offline
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Originally Posted by ScrappyPeg View Post
I'm no expert on the legalities of the treaties, but didn't the Feds pay out millions to Peguis recently? If so, did this not satisfy their obligations to Peguis?
Those people always have their hands out.

They will never be satisfied.
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  #23  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2009, 11:00 PM
grumpy old man grumpy old man is offline
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Originally Posted by hexrae View Post
lol, "the natives". More specifically, it's the Brokenhead and Peguis First Nations, although I recall reading an article awhile ago that mentioned Long Plain First Nation as well.
There are multiple reserves involved in this. 7 or 8.
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  #24  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2009, 11:05 PM
grumpy old man grumpy old man is offline
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^ meh. Just give them the land already and let them sell it for profit.

The only reason this is a big issue is because of where this land is located. Opposite Tuxedo, on the main road leading to the suburban sprawl of Winnipeg. If this was north of the Assiniboine, nobody would care.

Certainly a degree of racism on both sides is very obvious and prevalent for this particular situation.
Don't agree. There have been heated debates about every proposed urban reserve in Winnipeg and nearby. The point is these urban reserves do not pay property taxes. They are not answerable to local municipalities. Businesses they establish do not pay sales taxes giving them distinct competitive edge over nearby businesses.

Many Canadians are tired about this endless hand-out approach. 1.5 million natives are holding Canada hostage at seemingly every turn. If that is racism then so be it.

When can we say enough is enough?
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  #25  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2009, 11:06 PM
socialisthorde socialisthorde is offline
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Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
Those people always have their hands out.

They will never be satisfied.
Did you actually put any thought into this post, or do you just have this statement as a macro on your computer?
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  #26  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2009, 11:10 PM
socialisthorde socialisthorde is offline
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Originally Posted by grumpy old man View Post
Don't agree. There have been heated debates about every proposed urban reserve in Winnipeg and nearby. The point is these urban reserves do not pay property taxes. They are not answerable to local municipalities. Businesses they establish do not pay sales taxes giving them distinct competitive edge over nearby businesses.

Many Canadians are tired about this endless hand-out approach. 1.5 million natives are holding Canada hostage at seemingly every turn. If that is racism then so be it.

When can we say enough is enough?
Working fine in Saskatoon. Don't be so fearful


Saskatoon urban reserve celebrates 20th
Last Updated: Tuesday, March 4, 2008 | 2:45 PM CT
CBC News

A Saskatoon-based Indian reserve that has generated hundreds of jobs and has been cited as a model for similar urban reserves around Canada is celebrating its 20th anniversary.

The 1988 agreement to establish Muskeg Lake Cree Nation's urban reserve on the east side of the city was one of the first of its kind in Western Canada.

A wolf statue stands outside a strip mall on the Muskeg Lake urban reserve.A wolf statue stands outside a strip mall on the Muskeg Lake urban reserve.
(CBC)

Since then, dozens of First Nations organizations and businesses have set up on the 35-acre commercial reserve near the corner of College Drive and McKercher Drive.

There are offices, financial institutions, retail stores and gas stations.

"What we've developed over the years is something we're proud of. It's become quite a success for us," said Muskeg Lake Chief Gilbert Ledoux.

Most of employees are aboriginal people; some grew up on the home reserve about 93 kilometres north of Saskatoon.

"I'm getting some experience here," said Elinor Wuttunee, who works the steam press at Phoenix Dry Cleaning. "It's actually a good opportunity for young natives."

Former federal Progressive Conservative Indian Affairs minister Bill McKnight was involved in the early negotiations to establish the reserve and today a commercial centre there bears his name.

"When I became Treaty Commissioner, I was going to locate on reserve land, [but] there wasn't room," McKnight said. "That's how successful it's been," he said.

Initially, concerns were raised about jurisdictional issues between the city and the reserve. The band was not going to pay property taxes, but needed water, sewer, fire protection and other city services.

To get around the problem, the band started collecting its own tax and began paying an annual lump-sum fee to the city in payment for services.

The arrangement has become a template for other urban reserves around Saskatchewan. Groups from Manitoba and other provinces regularly come calling to see how the reserve works in Saskatoon.

More ventures are on the drawing board for Muskeg Lake.

The next project is a First Nations wellness centre that will specialize in diabetes research. Construction is expected to begin soon.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/saskatchewa...n-reserve.html
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  #27  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2009, 11:20 PM
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This isn't about an aboriginal developmental arm. This is about the prospects of a potential 'urban reserve' on the site. Call it whatever anyone wants to, but I'd bet my last dime that at least 80% of the residents in the area would be diametrically opposed to the idea of an urban reserve at that particular site. This is - rightly or wrongly - because reserves are associated with crime, poverty and deep seeded social problems. Quite frankly, by surveying reserves in this province, it's hard to argue against that perception. The statistics don't argue either.

This is the highest income neighbourhood in our city (and province). It is not the type of location you run a social experiment in. Call it elitist, call it what anyone will. There is a reason wealthy people live where they do. They don't want uncertainties. They want certainties. They like to feel insulated. Maybe it's strange, but it's also a great portion of the tax base. The beautiful thing with money, is if you have it, it's good anywhere. Upset the entire neighbourhood and good numbers would likely jump ship - to a different city, in a different province. The job skills of the people living in Tuxedo and River Heights are likely highly transferable. Lets not prod them.

I'm not opposed to aboriginal development. I'm not even opposed to urban reserves. I think one could work in Winnipeg, and work well. However, that location is not and will never be on the Tuxedo fringe.

We need development that is available to all people at that site.

...

For those on here who thought NIMBY's in Osborne Village were bad regarding a deteriorating house and some trees, just wait. This could be NIMBY armageddon.
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  #28  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2009, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by grumpy old man View Post
There are multiple reserves involved in this. 7 or 8.
There are 7 "First Nations" that signed Treaty one, but so far I've only read that Peguis, Brokenhead and Long Plain have/are involved.
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  #29  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2009, 11:28 PM
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Those people always have their hands out.

They will never be satisfied.
My hand isn't out, and I'm quite satisfied with the life I've carved out for myself. There, already you're wrong.
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  #30  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2009, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by drew View Post
^ meh. Just give them the land already and let them sell it for profit.

The only reason this is a big issue is because of where this land is located. Opposite Tuxedo, on the main road leading to the suburban sprawl of Winnipeg. If this was north of the Assiniboine, nobody would care.

Certainly a degree of racism on both sides is very obvious and prevalent for this particular situation.
You mean if it was north of Portage Avenue no one would care.
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  #31  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2009, 12:24 AM
socialisthorde socialisthorde is offline
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My hand isn't out, and I'm quite satisfied with the life I've carved out for myself. There, already you're wrong.
That's just like you people, self sufficient, independant and well spoken. Typical
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  #32  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2009, 12:29 AM
socialisthorde socialisthorde is offline
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Originally Posted by Boreal View Post
This is the highest income neighbourhood in our city (and province). It is not the type of location you run a social experiment in.
Yes you are right. Social experiments should be restricted to the poorest land we can find. We should resettle the entire native population to unareable farm land or urban ghettos. Oh wait, we tried that already.

What could be worse than the current situation?
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  #33  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2009, 1:11 AM
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I don't see that it's necessarily so bad. At least keep an open mind until there's more information on what would become of the land.
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  #34  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2009, 2:51 AM
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Yes you are right. Social experiments should be restricted to the poorest land we can find. We should resettle the entire native population to unareable farm land or urban ghettos. Oh wait, we tried that already.

What could be worse than the current situation?
Again, what's pretty isn't always right. It's more than fair of you to think that. Good luck trying to get the residents of Tuxedo and River Heights to think an urban reserve is a good idea. Lest we forget the uproar that was heard when the suggestion was floated that the houses that dot Kenaston be turned into lower income residences. That was over a few houses, largely fronting a major traffic corridor. I can imagine the reaction to an urban reserve being exponentially more vocal.

I'm not, nor did I ever advocate we restrict social experiments to the least valuable land. I made a case for the highest income neighbourhood in the province, and the severe downside to an urban reserve on the Kapyong Barracks Site. I made no case against aboriginal involvement. In fact, I'd more than tickled if an aboriginal developmental arm took a stab at development anywhere via the open market. The only potential positive to an urban reserve there is aboriginal employment, and by that account dollars in aboriginal pockets. Given that similar positives could be gained at an urban reserve in any other pocket of Winnipeg, why gamble on such a huge unknown, when the flip side is high end, likely medium density housing that is in a desirable location, will increase the tax base, and keep the many movers and shakers in this city/province who call Tuxedo/River Heights home, a little more relaxed. High income housing DOES NOT exclude aboriginal people. It is all inclusive. Providing of course, you have the money. The Kapyong Barracks is the most appropriate site in the metropolitan area for high income development. Best yet, it's considerably urban - relative to any recent developments (outside of Waterfront Dr.). We could build a waterpark and football stadium on that land too. However, that wouldn't be the most appropriate use of the land. The most appropriate use of that land is high income residential.
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  #35  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2009, 3:24 AM
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think longterm

I wanted to add to the discussion by saying this:

Considering that the aboriginal population on the prairies is steadily growing, and that by 2017 is projected to be 31% of the overall mix...

Do any of us expect the north end to be a nicer place by then?
imagine a third of our population growing up there

Is that good for the other 60 percent of us? we'll be the new orleans of canada.

I think we can all acknowledge that poverty is cyclical and kids growing up in high crime, high poverty areas have a high likelihood of being stuck there and having their own kids who grow up and get stuck there also. This even happens to white folks.

let's picture Winnipeg in 2050, the aboriginal population is pushing 40%, our social issues aren't going away they are getting worse. What will the north end or centennial neighbourhoods look like? imagine the drain on civic resources...

This will not be good for anyone.
it's not their problem, it's all of ours.

Yet some of you guys have the attitude that we should just cut off the money or the social programs that are designed to curb this trend.

please explain how that is supposed to be good for aboriginals or you?
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  #36  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2009, 3:30 AM
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Based on the total lack of progress surrounding the new AMC HQ across the river, you really can't blame the public for being skeptical about this development.

Look at the rotten mess the Thunderbird House has turned into, or all the fighting that occured to get a casino built in Brokenhead.

For such a prime piece of real estate, I really don't have a lot of faith that everything will go according to hoyle.

Besides, it's taken a half decade and this thing is still being tossed around the courts. Even if this was all settled tomorrow, it will be at least another five years before we will see the realization of any kind of development.
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Last edited by Only The Lonely..; Oct 2, 2009 at 3:40 AM.
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  #37  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2009, 3:32 AM
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Originally Posted by socialisthorde View Post
That's just like you people, self sufficient, independant and well spoken. Typical
Well, we try...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy6 View Post
I don't see that it's necessarily so bad. At least keep an open mind until there's more information on what would become of the land.
Exactly, why not a joint venture for the benefit of both sides? Who knows until this is settled.
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  #38  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2009, 6:14 AM
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no all natives are idiots make that clear.

we want to nip the social problems we face look after the kids give them thngs to thrive toss money into the community centers for more programs
look what ralph brown community center has done........
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  #39  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2009, 2:00 PM
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Originally Posted by 1ajs View Post
no all natives are idiots make that clear.

we want to nip the social problems we face look after the kids give them thngs to thrive toss money into the community centers for more programs
look what ralph brown community center has done........


Adrian - you really need to watch your spelling more closely. The missed spelling in your above post can be read two ways:

No, all natives are idiots, lets make that clear
- which is one of the rudest things i have heard on these forums, or.....what i really think you meant

Not all natives are idiots, lets make that clear

Adrian, it is called read what you write before you hit reply.
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  #40  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2009, 2:57 PM
Winnipegger@Heart Winnipegger@Heart is offline
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AJ has a point in that children need to be mentored, and community centres are great for this.

To the adults who made their beds: screw 'em. They can either turn their lives around, or face jail for gang activity. Let's get the children on the right path.

As for this land development...it is pretty tough deciding what is best; I feel for the nearby residents who live in the area for a reason: they have money. On the other hand, urban reserves seem to be proven to be effective. For me, I am not convinced this area should be developed for this purpose. Perhaps somewhere more balanced, in terms of income; Garden City, Transcona, St. Vital...

Kapyong should be developed with Garrison Woods in Calgary as a model.
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