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  #21  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2010, 9:39 PM
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When we are trying to tackle anti-poverty and anti-crime I think it needs to cater to the specific culture as some are more high-risk than others (i.e. Aboriginals, immigrants, etc). Like the African-Americans in the U.S., the aboriginals in Canada have a long history of mistreatment by the white-majority, which has set them back years, decades and even centuries. These issues cannot be solved by throwing them money or land, but to not even mention the correlation is a cop-out and won't get to the root of the problems. Blaming specific groups is what we cannot do. It all comes down to learning.
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  #22  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2010, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by djforsberg View Post
When we are trying to tackle anti-poverty and anti-crime I think it needs to cater to the specific culture as some are more high-risk than others (i.e. Aboriginals, immigrants, etc). Like the African-Americans in the U.S., the aboriginals in Canada have a long history of mistreatment by the white-majority, which has set them back years, decades and even centuries. These issues cannot be solved by throwing them money or land, but to not even mention the correlation is a cop-out and won't get to the root of the problems. Blaming specific groups is what we cannot do. It all comes down to learning.
I'm not sure if this is directed at me, because actually...

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To para-phrase, this is a "Aboriginal people -> solutions for -> poverty -> which leads to -> crime" discussion.
There's your correlation. I acknowledge this.
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  #23  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2010, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by djforsberg View Post
When we are trying to tackle anti-poverty and anti-crime I think it needs to cater to the specific culture as some are more high-risk than others (i.e. Aboriginals, immigrants, etc). Like the African-Americans in the U.S., the aboriginals in Canada have a long history of mistreatment by the white-majority, which has set them back years, decades and even centuries. These issues cannot be solved by throwing them money or land, but to not even mention the correlation is a cop-out and won't get to the root of the problems. Blaming specific groups is what we cannot do. It all comes down to learning.

Gotta respectfully disagree, by running parallel social policy by ethnicity, we're only institutionalizing differences. Social policy should be as inclusive as possible, the alternative is actually making things worse. See my longer post on the previous page if you're interested more on this opinion.

Levels of government and the social work industry has been catering to Aboriginals for a long time, you know... 'culturally and spiritually appropriate.' How well has that been working?

As for the tired old excuses 'you were born with these disadvantages/the subconscious effect of Colonization'... just how long will it be trendy to perpetuate these excuses and the blame game? It also would certainly make people feel that they are a product of their environment, which is too ingrained from birth to be positively changed. The Colonization excuse is particularly insulting to Aboriginals, it is like saying "you are mentally primitive and less advanced as compared to those from a European background, it is why you have not been able to 'catch-up' or adapt successfully to modern society." Further, the popular social work methods of parallel programs is akin to saying "Aboriginals are so emotionally unstable, if we don't handle them with kid gloves and provide tailor-made considerations, they have no chance to succeed or will become volatile." Continue to advocate these excuses, and they will believe it, and justify not putting in an individual effort because of it.

My great-great grandparents had a horrid time in the Ukraine, and it hasn't affected my or my family members' ability to put in the effort to make something of ourselves. If I were to give-up on life and effort, and use this as an excuse, people would think that is absurd... even though, this was after the time of Colonization.

As I said, somewhere, Martin Luther King Jr. would be rolling in his grave if he saw how we conduct social engineering up here in Canada. But then again, in some ways, Canada is a real sham of a country with all these 'special deals,' etc.

Last edited by DowntownWpg; Sep 30, 2010 at 10:48 PM.
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  #24  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2010, 3:40 AM
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I'm not sure if this is directed at me, because actually...

There's your correlation. I acknowledge this.
I was just stating my opinion. Not directed at anyone.
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  #25  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2010, 4:55 AM
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Gotta respectfully disagree, by running parallel social policy by ethnicity, we're only institutionalizing differences. Social policy should be as inclusive as possible, the alternative is actually making things worse. See my longer post on the previous page if you're interested more on this opinion.

Levels of government and the social work industry has been catering to Aboriginals for a long time, you know... 'culturally and spiritually appropriate.' How well has that been working?

As for the tired old excuses 'you were born with these disadvantages/the subconscious effect of Colonization'... just how long will it be trendy to perpetuate these excuses and the blame game? It also would certainly make people feel that they are a product of their environment, which is too ingrained from birth to be positively changed. The Colonization excuse is particularly insulting to Aboriginals, it is like saying "you are mentally primitive and less advanced as compared to those from a European background, it is why you have not been able to 'catch-up' or adapt successfully to modern society." Further, the popular social work methods of parallel programs is akin to saying "Aboriginals are so emotionally unstable, if we don't handle them with kid gloves and provide tailor-made considerations, they have no chance to succeed or will become volatile." Continue to advocate these excuses, and they will believe it, and justify not putting in an individual effort because of it.

My great-great grandparents had a horrid time in the Ukraine, and it hasn't affected my or my family members' ability to put in the effort to make something of ourselves. If I were to give-up on life and effort, and use this as an excuse, people would think that is absurd... even though, this was after the time of Colonization.

As I said, somewhere, Martin Luther King Jr. would be rolling in his grave if he saw how we conduct social engineering up here in Canada. But then again, in some ways, Canada is a real sham of a country with all these 'special deals,' etc.
I see your point, but I have to ask the same question. How well has that been working? Theory is wonderful, but practice is another beast altogether.

Also, cultures are distinct, so one can't simply substitute hardships made by one to rationalize an apparent failure by another to overcome those same hardships.
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  #26  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2010, 12:18 AM
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Quite worried that this could all be leading-up to large ethnic-based/Aboriginal riots in Winnipeg, Regina, and Saskatoon. The 'us vs. them' mentality is only going to get worse, as the levels of government and the social work and human rights industries continue to believe that their views of ultra political correctness and 'progressive' ethnic-based policy is somehow a remedy to the situation. Quite the opposite, actually. If Martin Luther King Jr. could see how we're doing social policy up here in Canada, he'd be rolling in his grave.

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  #27  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2010, 1:10 AM
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^ Wow, thanks for that useless piece of crap contribution to this conversation.
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  #28  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2010, 3:04 AM
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^ Wow, thanks for that useless piece of crap contribution to this conversation.
I liked it.
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  #29  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2010, 6:06 AM
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I liked it.
I agree. I think it was hilariously relevant to the post that he was quoting...
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  #30  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2010, 5:49 AM
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My great-great grandparents had a horrid time in the Ukraine, and it hasn't affected my or my family members' ability to put in the effort to make something of ourselves.
Your great-great grandparents didn't suffer from drug and alcohol abuse and neglect your great-grandparents, who didn't suffer from drug and alcohol abuse and neglect your grandparents, who didn't suffer from drug and alcohol abuse and neglect your parents, who didn't suffer from drug and alcohol abuse and neglect you.

As I explained in the Winnipeg Crime thread, the majority of the problems aboriginal people are dealing with, and the main cause of crime from them, is a result of the treatment of their parents, grandparents and so on in the residential school system, as well the a result of the isolation and deprivation of rights and responsibilities caused by the Indian Act.

To say that many of their problems are the result of actions allowed by the government during "colonization" (residential schools, the forced relocations and revocations of reserves, etc.) is not to claim that they are somehow genetically inferior. It is to say that the actions committed against their people during that time resulted in people who were emotionally and psychologically damaged, and passed their flaws down to their children, who passed those flaws down to their children, and so on. It is an extremely difficult cycle to break, and if Europeans had been subjected to something equivalent, they would have problems very similar to what our aboriginals experience.

There was a feature on CBC news the other day about a documentary focusing on aboriginal people in Ontario's far north. A little boy showed where he slept at night, then pointed up to the patched hole in the ceiling where his parents hanged themselves. How do you think that kid and his seven siblings are going to turn out? In some communities in Ontario's north, 90% of the population is on welfare and more than 75% of the population suffers from some sort of substance abuse or mental health issue. These problems are not inherent, they are passed down, and they can be cured.

Undemocratic and/or corrupt governance of band councils along with unresponsive and sometimes ignorant provincial and federal governments leaves them disillusioned with government in general, they become discouraged from becoming leaders, believing nothing can be changed; at least not by them. This can be cured by having upper levels of government that are more attentive to their voice, respond to their complaints and gives them a role to play in leading themselves. Establishing stricter rules on aboriginal governance and giving them a bigger part in provincial and national governments will show them that they have a role to play in Canada, that they are responsible for something, and they will step up to the plate and carry out those responsibilities.

Reserves that have concentrated aboriginal people in isolated sections of the north, far from economic activity, have left them with no jobs, even when they want to work, and living on land that can barely sustain them, let alone provide economic opportunities enough for them to thrive. When economic opportunities do appear, aboriginal people in the remote north don't benefit as much as the general population in southern communities does with similar developments down here. They're typically only hired for lower end jobs, and have almost no upward mobility. Many of those projects will fly non-aboriginal employees from the south, often saying they're "better skilled". Why not train the people who live near the mine to work in it? And those resource extraction projects disrupt the natural environment surrounding their communities, which is essentially their grocery store. Shouldn't the community receive some sort of compensation for this? Thunder Bay receives tax revenue from the mine operating in unincorporated territory north of its city limits. Why can't Attiwapisakat levy taxes on the nearby diamond mine? Why can't Nishnawbe-Aski Nation receive revenue from industry in its territory (Treaty 9) so that it isn't dependent on funds from Indian and Northern Affairs?

Education might be free for aboriginal people, but there are no post-secondary institutions in their communities in the north. In Ontario, they have to move to cities in the south to attend high school, and when they're here, they have to pay for housing, which is not covered by the treaties. Lucky students come from reserves that can afford group homes, or attend a high school that offers free housing. If they do make it to university, again, they have to pay for housing, for text books, anything else that isn't paying for the education itself. It is difficult to get to that point, as many aboriginal communities lack proper public schools. Modern technology makes remote education possible, but we still have a long way to go before education standards in remote communities is equal to the standards and opportunities of the south. Nishnawbe-Aski Nation has to fight with INAC to get funding for its education programmes. Shouldn't these programmes be funded? If there is no protocol to fund educational programmes operated by regional First Nation governments, there should be.

Aboriginal who arrive in cities for the first time experience culture shock as a result of their isolation. Students going to the aboriginal high school in Thunder Bay have to go through a programme that teaches them how to cross roads safely using traffic lights (which many have never seen before), how to use a bus, how to shop for groceries at a grocery store, and so on. They are introduced to drugs, alcohol, and other vices that are much more accessible in cities than on reserves. Every couple years a student from that school dies as a result.

Even if we ignored race altogether in developing a social policy to deal with these problems, it wouldn't change the fact that aboriginal people would be the largest users of those programmes in our communities. It doesn't negate the fact that those programmes would have to be sensitive to their cultures, just as multicultural integration programmes are sensitive to the cultures of people from other countries. Many aboriginal people in Thunder Bay who are elderly cannot speak English, so any problems they might have go unsolved. If we have social assistance programmes offer services in Ukrainian, Finnish, and Italian to elderly people from those cultures, why would you consider a programme offering Cree to be wrong?

I agree, as do many aboriginal people, that the Indian Act has to be, if not abolished, heavily reformed. While aboriginal people might "enjoy" benefits such as tax exemption and free education, they also "enjoy" the loss of economic freedoms, leadership responsibilities, and the ability to hold their governments accountable. The ability to recall a corrupt band council is only just now being considered. I know it is tempting for many people to point out the "benefits" of Status, but you have to understand the negative side as well. Status Indians have only been allowed to vote for 50 years. Before 1960, they essentially weren't even Canadians. It was our law that stated that. It is our law that has to change. They can't do it themselves, and that is where our responsibilities lie. We aren't to blame for their problems existing, but we are to blame for allowing them to continue when there are ways to prevent them. We simply have to try harder to help them help themselves, because right now they are not often in a situation where they can easily help themselves.

We're all Canadians. We have to help each other build a better country for all of us.
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  #31  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2010, 2:15 PM
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Many of those projects will fly non-aboriginal employees from the south, often saying they're "better skilled". Why not train the people who live near the mine to work in it?
From my experience in Northern Manitoba, the reality is that it can be really difficult to hire and use local labour for construction related activities.

In remote communities that are fly-in or winter road accessible only, from what I have seen there isn't any choice BUT to fly in workers from the south. The local labour force is limited, and they tend to arrive late or not at all, and disappear for weeks on end after receiving a paycheck. There is always an effort to hire and train local labour for any job that happens up north. A lot of the time, there is simply no one willing to be trained.

Road accessible reserves tend to be a different story. They usually have their own crews to build, electricians, plumbers etc.

Quite honestly, I think that a number of the remote fly-in only reserves in Northern Manitoba need to be abandoned entirely. There is zero economic activities (except Band related, airports, grocery stores, etc.) and substance abuse is chronic. I really can't see how some of these communities will ever improve.
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  #32  
Old Posted Oct 5, 2010, 2:47 AM
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Several of Northern Ontario's fly in reserves have mineral wealth near them and are poised to benefit from that. Surely Manitoba's north also has mineral wealth. Prospectors here are claiming that there could be a second Ring of Fire in the lowlands, maybe it is in Manitoba? These communities aren't devoid of economic potential, it just hasn't happened yet. Instead of the typical method of some resource being found and then communities springing up afterwards to take advantage of it, the fly-in reserves were established before any economy existed and now they have to figure out a way to build one.

The way they use their money is concerning, I can't really think of what can be done with that other than better education when they're younger. I read an account a while ago of a reserve that got a lump sum from oil development, and very few people spent their money wisely.

I don't think mass relocations would help as much as we think. A lot of these communities have already been relocated in the past and there is a lot of evidence that those relocations do more harm than good in many people. Better infrastructure in the north would be better, but that only comes with significant private investment. Several communities in Ontario's Far North are getting rail and road access thanks to the Ring of Fire development and the hydro corridor between Manitoba and Toronto, but most communities fall outside of both areas.
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