HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions

About The Ads  This week the ad company used in the forum will be monitoring activity and doing some tests to identify any problems which users may be experiencing. If at any time this week you get pop-ups, redirects, etc. as a result of ads please let us know by sending an email to forum@skyscraperpage.com or post in the ads complaint thread. Thank you for your participation.


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #321  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2019, 8:25 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 21,389
Quote:
Originally Posted by park123 View Post
I guess crime is very concentrated in parts of the city where visitors are very unlikely to go to.
yes, chicago's notorious violent crime is very concentrated in the far west side and far south side ghettos, places that extremely few visitors ever venture to, unless they have friends/family in those areas. your average tourist to chicago is extremely unlikely to spend any time wandering the streets of garfield park or englewood.

as can be seen on the map below showing homicides so far this year, ~75% of chicago's homicides are concentrated in just 15 community areas on the far west and far south sides. by comparison, chicago's other 62 community areas aren't exactly mayberry, but they're a FAR cry from places like englewood or garfield park and the like when it comes to violent street crime.


source: https://heyjackass.com/
__________________
He has to go.

Last edited by Steely Dan; Oct 10, 2019 at 9:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #322  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2019, 5:09 PM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,701
^ hmm, interesting -- i always heard the southside of chicago was the baddest part of town and if you go down there you better best beware.

but wessside too yikes.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #323  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2019, 5:38 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 21,389
^ yeah, the far west side is no joke.

humboldt park, garfield park, austin, and north lawndale represent the roughest part of the city in terms of violent crime.

those 4 community areas represent only 7% of the city's land area, but they account for roughly 1/3 of the city's homicides.

that nexus of poverty, gangs, and crime might represent the single most violent patch of land in the entire developed world on a pound for pound basis.
__________________
He has to go.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #324  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2019, 5:53 PM
eschaton eschaton is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
^ yeah, the far west side is no joke.

humboldt park, garfield park, austin, and north lawndale represent the roughest part of the city in terms of violent crime.

those 4 community areas represent only 7% of the city's land area, but they account for roughly 1/3 of the city's homicides.

that nexus of poverty, gangs, and crime might represent the single most violent patch of land in the entire developed world on a pound for pound basis.
I thought Humboldt Park was gentrifying?

In general though, it seems like the reason why the worst part of the West Side is so much more violent now than the South Side is simply because it hasn't been anywhere near as emptied by blight.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #325  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2019, 5:59 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 21,389
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I thought Humboldt Park was gentrifying?
the NE section of the humboldt park community area is cut off from the rest of the neighborhood by a large railroad ROW embankment

the northeast section near the the 606 trail is definitely experiencing gentrification.

but south and west of the tracks? not that i'm aware of. it's still the wild wild west.

map: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hu...2!4d-87.721293
__________________
He has to go.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #326  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2019, 6:03 PM
eschaton eschaton is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
the NE section of the humboldt park community area is cut off from the rest of the neighborhood by a large railroad ROW embankment

the northeast section near the the 606 trail is definitely experiencing gentrification.

but south and west of the tracks? not that i'm aware of. it's still the wild wild west.

map: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hu...2!4d-87.721293
Looking on the map, it seems almost all of the shootings are in the southern (black) part of the community area, not the northern (Latino) portion.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #327  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2019, 6:16 PM
suburbanite's Avatar
suburbanite suburbanite is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
^ yeah, the far west side is no joke.

humboldt park, garfield park, austin, and north lawndale represent the roughest part of the city in terms of violent crime.

those 4 community areas represent only 7% of the city's land area, but they account for roughly 1/3 of the city's homicides.

that nexus of poverty, gangs, and crime might represent the single most violent patch of land in the entire developed world on a pound for pound basis.

I find this really interesting because since Google Maps has become so detailed I've found it fascinating how you can often get a quick insight into general wealth/crime level in a neighbourhood (better for SFH/small multi-family areas) from it's satellite overhead view. Dark green foliage with little gaps in the urban fabric often represents a fairly well-to-do neighbourhood that maintains mature trees and has land/unit prices high enough to prevent empty lots from sitting vacant. The brighter green areas with extreme low density often represent the bombed-out neighbourhoods that expose unkempt grass as derelict buildings are torn down.

By this metric Austin (and parts of Garfield park to a lesser extent) pass the sniff-test far better than the rough parts of the South Side.

Austin. I'd passed over this area before on Google Maps and never thought much of it until I saw your post and dug a little deeper into streetview.



Part of West Garfield. This one is a little more telling, but still nowhere near the same aesthetic of equivalently dangerous areas in other Midwest metros




Compare that to Englewood, where I don't need to go any further to immediately tell it's one of the worst areas in the city.




Just curious to me as to how the notorious West Side neighbourhoods seemed to avoid as much full-on destruction.
__________________
Discontented suburbanite since 1994
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #328  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2019, 6:33 PM
eschaton eschaton is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by suburbanite View Post
Just curious to me as to how the notorious West Side neighbourhoods seemed to avoid as much full-on destruction.
I wonder if the resistance of Oak Park to white flight - mainly through its commitment to integration rather than a block-by-block "steering" - helped to keep the West Side intact? Eventually suburbs further out like Maywood and Bellwood did become "black suburbs" but with the immediately adjacent suburb maintaining itself as a desirable, integrated mixed community throughout the worst period for Chicago it probably kept somewhat of a lid on black flight.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #329  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2019, 6:36 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 19,126
Are we sure about this "the West Side isn't nearly as decayed as the South Side" narrative?

Both are large areas with huge variability, and there are definitely bombed out parts of the West Side. In my (very anecdotal) experience, West Side is tougher and at least as bombed out.

This is the West Side I'm most familiar with. I don't know if there's a worse area in Chicago:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8578...7i16384!8i8192
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #330  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2019, 6:37 PM
Chisouthside Chisouthside is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Silicon Valley/Chicago
Posts: 153
Chicago is the main distribution point for heroin and most of the open air markets for heroin are on the west side as they are easily accessible via expressway to buyers coming from affluent western suburbs. That was a huge factor in the rise of violence from 2016 onward.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #331  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2019, 6:39 PM
Chisouthside Chisouthside is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Silicon Valley/Chicago
Posts: 153
North Lawndale is probably the most bombed out. Garfield Park and Austin not so much.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #332  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2019, 6:57 PM
suburbanite's Avatar
suburbanite suburbanite is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Are we sure about this "the West Side isn't nearly as decayed as the South Side" narrative?

Both are large areas with huge variability, and there are definitely bombed out parts of the West Side. In my (very anecdotal) experience, West Side is tougher and at least as bombed out.

This is the West Side I'm most familiar with. I don't know if there's a worse area in Chicago:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8578...7i16384!8i8192
I don't know, I don't have any experience on the ground here, but I can't find any places on the West Side that have the same level of ground exposure as that Englewood shot. These are two of the worst I can see.

Lawndale:



East Garfield:



One thing I see is the proximity to the Freeway might have helped to keep some employment uses in the area as you can see industrial properties, hospitals, and some other institutional uses in close proximity to bombed out residential areas. Englewood looks basically like one giant residential neighbourhood where if people aren't living there and working elsewhere, nothing is going on.
__________________
Discontented suburbanite since 1994

Last edited by suburbanite; Oct 10, 2019 at 7:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #333  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2019, 5:38 PM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,701
^ yeah overall those look pretty intact to me.

goes to show what his cherry picking via google street views is worth lol ...!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #334  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2019, 6:48 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 19,126
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
^ yeah overall those look pretty intact to me.

goes to show what his cherry picking via google street views is worth lol ...!
No cherry picking whatsoever. I posted the main drag. Also, putting aside the fact the aerials looks essentially the same, not sure how an aerial tells us anything about relative street-level decay.

I think the premise is wrong. The West Side ghetto, speaking generally, is generally more challenged/decayed than the South Side ghetto, and I think the population, crime and housing value numbers back this up.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #335  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2019, 7:12 PM
eschaton eschaton is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
No cherry picking whatsoever. I posted the main drag. Also, putting aside the fact the aerials looks essentially the same, not sure how an aerial tells us anything about relative street-level decay.

I think the premise is wrong. The West Side ghetto, speaking generally, is generally more challenged/decayed than the South Side ghetto, and I think the population, crime and housing value numbers back this up.
As you yourself have pointed out in the past regarding Detroit, generally speaking the most decayed neighborhoods are not the highest crime, because once an area is mostly vacant there's less criminals - and less victims - per square mile.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #336  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2019, 7:15 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 19,126
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
As you yourself have pointed out in the past regarding Detroit, generally speaking the most decayed neighborhoods are not the highest crime, because once an area is mostly vacant there's less criminals - and less victims - per square mile.
I don't think there are any Chicago neighborhoods that have that extreme level of vacancy, where the neighborhood has essentially disappeared.

Detroit has a ring of decay that has less than 10% of peak population. Places like Englewood, and Lawndale, are still semi-intact. They're more like Detroit circa 1985.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #337  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2019, 7:53 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 21,389
the far west side is a little more densely populated than the far south side, which is probably related to homicide density being a little greater there as well.

far west side:

humboldt park -- 15,281 ppsm
w. garfield park - 13,861 ppsm
austin ------------ 13,637 ppsm
north lawndale -- 11,024 ppsm
e. garfield park -- 10,647 ppsm


far south side:

auburn gresham -- 12,160 ppsm
chatham ----------- 10,751 ppsm
w. englewood ----- 10,208 ppsm
grand crossing ------ 9,086 ppsm
roseland ------------- 8,746 ppsm
englewood ---------- 8,454 ppsm




Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I don't think there are any Chicago neighborhoods that have that extreme level of vacancy, where the neighborhood has essentially disappeared.

Detroit has a ring of decay that has less than 10% of peak population. Places like Englewood, and Lawndale, are still semi-intact. They're more like Detroit circa 1985.
true. even englewood, the most "urban prairie" style hood in chicago, still packs in nearly 8,500 ppsm.

by comparison, the "ring of decay" around detroit's core has zip codes currently in the 1,500 - 3,500 ppsm range.
__________________
He has to go.

Last edited by Steely Dan; Oct 11, 2019 at 8:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #338  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2019, 6:00 PM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
No cherry picking whatsoever. I posted the main drag. Also, putting aside the fact the aerials looks essentially the same, not sure how an aerial tells us anything about relative street-level decay.

I think the premise is wrong. The West Side ghetto, speaking generally, is generally more challenged/decayed than the South Side ghetto, and I think the population, crime and housing value numbers back this up.
no, your fetish for your carefully selected single steetviews to back your views is the very epitome of cherrypicking.
obviously the aerials show more information and reflect the reality of entire neighborhoods much better.
you can change the premise all you like, but the premise you are running from was abandonment.
as its becoming urban prairied, maybe it doesn't have the top rotten numbers anymore, but clearly englewood looks bad.
urban prairie is even worse than bad.

Last edited by mrnyc; Oct 12, 2019 at 6:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
End
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 2:16 PM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.