Most/least favored cities in your state/province

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Yeah, I was thinking of Highland Park, but it's such a tiny enclave. It's more like a small neighborhood than an entire city. And it isn't as desolate as ESL.

i dont remember what highland park looks like but east st. louis looks like it was bombed by B-52s...i mean not an exaggeration. the only other city/town that comes to mind that forces as strong of an apocalyptic impression is cairo, il.

[Centropolis]

to be sure there are many small towns and cities along the mississippi river...bootheel and on south that have a cairo-like feel...overtaken by abandonment, kudzu, and apocalyptic apartheid. so far wasted as to not be of anyones concern anymore excepting the dead.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Henry Ford's desire to avoid Detroit's taxes is why Highland Park, MI, wasn't annexed into Detroit. Today Highland Park is only 20% of its peak population. It is probably in far worse shape than either EStL or Gary.

Yeah NO, it's not as bad as Gary or East STL. Highland Park is actually pretty intact at least when it comes to it's pre-war housing stock (most of the commercial stuff is gone though). And if what's happening in the North End keeps creeping up then most of the dilapidated buildings should be saved. Highland Park also just got a huge injection recently to it's economy with a supplier adding 480 new jobs there.

Anyway this thread topic sucks.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Yeah, if you streetview around the two, Gary does look ever so marginally better than ESL.

You know you're bottom of the barrel when even Gary can look down on you in the urban abandonment game.

And Gary is still home to the largest, most productive steel mill in the western hemisphere (though it only employs a small fraction of its former heyday employment), so it at least still has that huge industrial economic base to help prop itself up (however marginal that may be). I'm not aware of any massive industrial facility like that within ESL city limits.

IDK I think the massive polluting steel mill is really holding Gary back more than anything else, otherwise it would be a much better choice for urbanists looking for cheap housing to start settling in especially since it's right on the lovely Indiana dunes. The steel mill kinda ruins that.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Not a fan of Mississauga or Oshawa.

The troïka of southern Ontario is Oshawa, Hamilton and Brantford. Take your pick.

Mississauga is not loved but is not a whipping boy either. Just a mega suburb.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by The North One

IDK I think the massive polluting steel mill is really holding Gary back more than anything else, otherwise it would be a much better choice for urbanists looking for cheap housing to start settling in especially since it's right on the lovely Indiana dunes. The steel mill kinda ruins that.

If the SSL ran more regularly that would probably also help. Gary is a relatively short ride to downtown Chicago.

That said, ESL has amazing train service to SL and that doesn't seem to help.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The troïka of southern Ontario is Oshawa, Hamilton and Brantford. Take your pick.

Mississauga is not loved but is not a whipping boy either. Just a mega suburb.

I'd probably put Sarnia and/or Windsor below Oshawa, which is at least close to more favourable things.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by The North One

IDK I think the massive polluting steel mill is really holding Gary back more than anything else, otherwise it would be a much better choice for urbanists looking for cheap housing to start settling in especially since it's right on the lovely Indiana dunes. The steel mill kinda ruins that.

If we're talking about Chicago transplants, if it was just the steel mill and not general crime and decay, why would they jump over Englewood and other inner city neighbourhoods and head that much further to Gary?

[Acajack]

Here in Quebec my city of Gatineau is generally considered the armpit of the province. Though plenty of people still move here because the economy is good. I think perceptions might be slowly changing.

Quebec City is the darling city. Though the people have a rep for being a tad pompous. But the city is very very nice by NA standards.

[IrishIllini]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

If we're talking about Chicago transplants, if it was just the steel mill and not general crime and decay, why would they jump over Englewood and other inner city neighbourhoods and head that much further to Gary?

Gary is included in the Chicago MSA, so they wouldn't really be transplants, just moving within the region. Indiana has lower property taxes (I think?) but I believe their state income tax is higher. Sales taxes would also be lower, I'm sure. More house for your money, etc. No different than most burbs in Illinois, except in Illinois the preferred suburban real estate is north, northwest, and west.

[IrishIllini]

Originally Posted by The North One

Yeah NO, it's not as bad as Gary or East STL. Highland Park is actually pretty intact at least when it comes to it's pre-war housing stock (most of the commercial stuff is gone though). And if what's happening in the North End keeps creeping up then most of the dilapidated buildings should be saved. Highland Park also just got a huge injection recently to it's economy with a supplier adding 480 new jobs there.

Anyway this thread topic sucks.

Highland Park, MI looks pretty well maintained for a city on the "decline". A lot of the homes look beautiful.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by IrishIllini

Highland Park, MI looks pretty well maintained for a city on the "decline". A lot of the homes look beautiful.

You could probably find a intact block here or there, but HP is definitely not "well-maintained". Birmingham and Northville are "well-maintained". HP is the poorest, most depopulated city in Michigan. Most of the streets are near-vacant.

I mean, scroll around on Streetview. The library, the high school, almost all remaining historic structures of note, are in ruins, or gone. It's an American disaster:

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3967...7i16384!8i8192

But I still think it's more intact than ESL, which looks like a Deep South Delta town succumbing to nature. HP at least has hints of good urban bones. And HP was a solid, upper middle class town until the early 1970's, with art deco apartment buildings and large brick homes; ESL was always a poor town of Southern migrant labor in shotgun homes.

Another difference: HP was known as a very progressive city; ESL was known for some of the worst race riots (whites murdering blacks without consequence). ESL was populated by Southern whites and then the factories recruited Southern blacks when the whites went on strike.

[Yuri]

As we're talking about (East) St. Louis, yesterday there was that incident with that couple pointing a machine gun against protesters.

Anyway, I found out it took place in an upmarket neighbourhood called Central West End which is actually inside St. Louis city proper. I didn't know there were very good neighbourhoods left in the city, only in the suburbs, a bit like Detroit.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

Anyway, I found out it took place in an upmarket neighbourhood called Central West End which is actually inside St. Louis city proper. I didn't know there were very good neighbourhoods left in the city, only in the suburbs, a bit like Detroit.

The Central West End, which is in the city of St. Louis, is probably the most desirable neighborhood psf in the entire metro. And Detroit certainly has a few nice neighborhoods in the city proper.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

As we're talking about (East) St. Louis, yesterday there was that incident with that couple pointing a machine gun against protesters.

Anyway, I found out it took place in an upmarket neighbourhood called Central West End which is actually inside St. Louis city proper. I didn't know there were very good neighbourhoods left in the city, only in the suburbs, a bit like Detroit.

St. Louis has some decent in-city neighborhoods, and even a very famous park (Lafayette Park, I think?) with fancy houses around it.


Speaking of which, is St. Louis or Kansas City more favored in Missouri? I would guess St. Louis since it is more historically important but I don't really know.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by IrishIllini

Highland Park, MI looks pretty well maintained for a city on the "decline". A lot of the homes look beautiful.

Yeah, there's a ton of intact stunning housing stock there. More than most people realize.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4005...7i16384!8i8192

But there's a lot of work it needs and blight, I'm optimistic about it's future especially being on Woodward.

Nobody who isn't a baby boomer wants to live in crap-burbs like Birmingham anymore. Those places are absolute shit and not impressive all, it's going nowhere.

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

As we're talking about (East) St. Louis, yesterday there was that incident with that couple pointing a machine gun against protesters.

Anyway, I found out it took place in an upmarket neighbourhood called Central West End which is actually inside St. Louis city proper. I didn't know there were very good neighbourhoods left in the city, only in the suburbs, a bit like Detroit.

St. Louis has more than a few desirable neighborhoods within city limits in the central corridor and on the south side. The Central West End, Skinker-DeBaliviere, Demun, Hi-Point, Franz Park, Clayton-Tamm, The Hill, Southwest Garden, Northhampton, Southhampton, St. Louis Hills, Princeton Heights, Tower Grove South and East, Compton Heights, Shaw, Soulard, Lasalle Park... and a number of others where demand and home prices are soaring, like Forest Park Southeast, Benton Park, Fox Park, and Botanical Heights. And that's not including the neighborhoods that are *just* over the city line but walkably contiguous with the city, like Maplewood, the Moorlands, Parkview, and Wydown-Skinker.

The Central West End probably has the highest density and the most money, but the others are solid neighborhoods ranging from working class to upscale where homes are perpetually in high demand. And I would say that a lot of the neighborhoods that I didn't specifically mention aren't un-desirable, but have issues to varying degrees and haven't yet seen the level of investment that some of the others have seen.

Much of the north side is another story, but there are still well-maintained and populated neighborhoods there as well, particularly on the near north side and along the northwest edge of the city.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by IrishIllini

Highland Park, MI looks pretty well maintained for a city on the "decline". A lot of the homes look beautiful.

It looks like they've cleaned some things up and demolished a lot of irreplaceable buildings, but it is not "well maintained" by any stretch of the imagination. It is one of the most deteriorated places in the entire state of Michigan.

HP's decline over the past 30 years was pretty dramatic. From what I recall of HP of the early 90s, there was little abandonment, if any. But by the end of the 90s Chrysler had moved 30 miles north to Auburn Hills and the city was in a tailspin.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

It looks like they've cleaned some things up and demolished a lot of irreplaceable buildings, but it is not "well maintained" by any stretch of the imagination. It is one of the most deteriorated places in the entire state of Michigan.

HP's decline over the past 30 years was pretty dramatic. From what I recall of HP of the early 90s, there was little abandonment, if any. But by the end of the 90s Chrysler had moved 30 miles north to Auburn Hills and the city was in a tailspin.

And if you look at your posted Streetview, the 2009 Streetview shows those apartment buildings as occupied, with ground-floor retail. In the most recent Streetview, both are abandoned shells. The 2025 Streetview will likely show two new vacant lots.

Up until about 1990, Highland Park was fairly vibrant and intact. I vaguely remember a thriving urban retail corridor along Woodward, anchored by a huge urban Sears. It was gritty but active, like some of the retail corridors you have in working class towns in the Northeast, like Paterson, NJ.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Crawford

And if you look at your posted Streetview, the 2009 Streetview shows those apartment buildings as occupied, with ground-floor retail. In the most recent Streetview, both are abandoned shells. The 2025 Streetview will likely show two new vacant lots.

Up until about 1990, Highland Park was fairly vibrant and intact. I vaguely remember a thriving urban retail corridor along Woodward, anchored by a huge urban Sears. It was gritty but active, like some of the retail corridors you have in working class towns in the Northeast, like Paterson, NJ.

Yep, I remember going to that Sears a few times as a kid. It was gritty but very active into the 90s.