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  #1161  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2010, 3:31 AM
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Are there restrictions in the height of buildings for the entire city?
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  #1162  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2010, 7:54 PM
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There are height restrictions throughout the city but not as much as downtown. I couldn't find much info on the city website, but there are limits (in theory) for 10 storeys (40m), 6 storeys, and 4 storeys, in accordance with particular zoning. In fact, most cities have height restrictions of some kind, but not usually as severe as St. John's. Vancouver downtown has a prevalent height limit of 450' or about 137 m which can be broken at the discretion of the city, and cities like Edmonton, Montreal, Ottawa, and Halifax all have height limits due to particular reasons.

Here is a wikipedia article about this -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Height_restriction_laws
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  #1163  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2010, 8:07 PM
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^ so I guess we won't see like 30 story office or conso towers anywhere in the city.
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  #1164  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2010, 8:38 PM
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There was a lot of talk about the Fortis development at the Council meeting tonight and it seems that a lot of councillors supported an office tower, in some form, being built in that location.

CBC News will have more coverage on councils Fortis discussion in a few minutes and you can also read The Scope's Council Live Blog to see what the councillors were saying. http://twitter.com/thescopeNL

CBC showed the following councilors on the news.

Hann, Tilley and Breen all said how bad it was that the proposal is off the table, and mentioned that it was bad for the business community.

Collins and O'leary spoke and didn't seem to care that it was withdrawn, Collins said he'd never support a 10 to 12 story building on Water Street.

I should also mention now that I feel that all councillors should be elected at large. I don't really find it fair that people who have been elected in wards by a few thousand people are making the same decisions as those who were elected by 14+ thousand in matters that effect the entire city. Vancouver, where I believe everyone is elected at large, seems to have a more fair system.

Last edited by PoscStudent; Apr 5, 2010 at 8:58 PM.
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  #1165  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2010, 7:16 PM
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"The debate over a controversial proposal by a St. John's-based company came to a fiery end at a city council meeting Monday night.

Last week, Fortis Properties Corporation announced it would be withdrawing its multi-million dollar building proposal, which included a 15-storey office tower along the city's waterfront. While many on council agreed it would have been good for the city, Councillor Wally Collins said in the end they'd still lose.

"We're voting on a full row of 15 stories right up the water front and, I mean, I don't want to see it. It's great for the tax base, but I don't want to see it and I can't see me voting for it," Collins said.

Several councillors said the deal had been dead for weeks, saying members of the public–and council–killed any chance Fortis may have had at getting the building off the ground.

"Even before Fortis sent this application to council, they were literally crucified by members of the general public, and even some members of council," said Coun. Bruce Tilley at last night's meeting.

The $75-million proposal also included a renovation of Fortis's existing property on Water Street, 382 new parking spaces, additional retail space, an outdoor plaza and a pedestrian walk-way along the harbourfront.

Councillor Tom Hann said shutting the door to Fortis could mean losing out on future investments.

"Some of us were labeled gutless wonders, and spineless. So in the present atmosphere, why would anyone want to come here and be part of the city," said Hann.

"We slammed the door, your worship. We slammed the door in their face."

A disappointed Mayor Dennis O'Keefe agreed, saying the company had voiced similar concerns to him.

"They felt that they weren't getting a fair shake," said O'Keefe. "What they heard the loudest was the naysaying and the branding of being arrogant."

Council's infighting a factor

Last week, Fortis President Nora Duke told CBC News that council's response was part of the reason why they decided to rescind their proposal.

"In terms of looking at council and the decision-making process, we felt the application would not be successful, and so we just decided it was probably time to move on and to look to other opportunities," said Duke.

The company's president said based on reaction from both the public and council, they decided to explore other options for their property at the corner of Water and Prescott streets.

However, at last night's meeting, Councillor Debbie Hanlon said a formal proposal was never officially submitted to council: a draft of the proposed building plan was all they received in January, and that could have been negotiated.

"We didn't close the door on Fortis," said Hanlon. "I mean some of you have said we did but we didn't. They put a proposal in and it never came to us. They were the ones that stopped negotiations with us."

Fiery public reaction

At a public meeting in February, more than 300 people showed up at a forum to voice their concerns about the downtown's future. The proposed 15-storey building would have exceeded the city's current four-storey height restriction and would have required special permission from council to proceed.

"I don't understand why they should show disregard and contempt for their own regulations by entertaining proposals that don't meet them," activist and comedian Greg Malone said at the public meeting.

Many residents felt the proposal was a slap in the face: that it would detract from the city's heritage and overwhelm the skyline.

"What gives Fortis the right to take away the sunrise from me, in my home," asked Alex MacDonald, who lives on Gower Street, just north of the Fortis property.

The Fortis building, which was formerly named the Royal trust Building, is more than forty years old and was the first office tower built in St. John's. In January, deputy mayor Shannie Duff told CBC news that Fortis's plan for the building wasn't a step in the right direction.

"I find it shocking and it's very disappointing because I think Fortis which is a major, well-resourced company had an opportunity to do something really positive," said Duff.

Last week, Fortis said their company has taken stock of the reaction and have decided to instead retrofit their existing building."


source:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/newfoundlan...is-debate.html
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  #1166  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2010, 8:55 PM
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New photothread.

oneHundredToOneAgainstAndFalling

Hopefully it generates more interest than the last one. This one was a tough slog. I've been taking photos off and on for this one over about two years time. I managed to locate the final numbers today. I need to redo some, but it's the thought that counts, right? And frankly the kilometres I've walked tracking this down is ludicrous.

And hopefully the Fortis thing goes somewhere, but as we've said here before, a developer is going to actually have to do something besides a preliminary massing with some colour to show St. John's that they can do something well for sites downtown and that it isn't always going to end up as an Atlantic Place.
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  #1167  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2010, 6:48 PM
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http://vocm.com/newsarticle.asp?mn=2&id=5536&latest=1
Quote:
St. John's Mayor Dennis O'Keefe turned it up a notch on Fortis and downtown development this afternoon as he addressed the business community. With members of council - both pro and con - looking on, O'Keefe said the city is at a tipping point and has terrific opportunities. But, the city has to capitalize right now. He was speaking of the proposal by Fortis for a 15-storey high office building downtown, one which would exceed current development regulations. Even though the city is desperately short of Class A office space, the majority of council seemed unwilling to go along with it. Thus, the company withdrew the project, and instead will renovate their existing building. The mayor hopes Fortis will come back to council with a revised proposal, one that will satisfy a majority of council. If they don't, he says the city will pay a price.
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  #1168  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2010, 7:59 PM
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I'm not exactly sure how that's turning it up a notch on Fortis. They came with a proposal, council seemed to decide it wasn't even worth discussing and that was it. Why shoud Fortis waste time and money on revising plans when I'm sure they think council would say no to it at this point?
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  #1169  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2010, 8:59 PM
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no... not really turning it up a notch at all.

i believe what he said about the "tipping point" was in reference to what we want our community to look like. so, i guess by fervently rejecting the fortis proposal we are sending a message that we're not looking to look like a city of glass, concrete and steel.
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  #1170  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2010, 9:22 PM
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^Frankly a glass structure would look better than Atlantic Place. There's other choices, but for it to not look terrible it's going to be way more costly to do brickwork that would be in character with Water Street.
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  #1171  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2010, 9:42 PM
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^ All you would have really seen from Water Street if Fortis' proposal had gone ahead was brick.
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  #1172  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2010, 10:25 PM
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True. I suppose what council is saying is we really don't want anymore business downtown.
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  #1173  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2010, 11:27 PM
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^ I say it is time then we take out the velvet rope circle it around downtown and phone the federal government and see if we can get the downtown made into a national historic site.
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  #1174  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2010, 11:57 PM
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We could maybe work on Unesco, but I doubt it would fly seeing as most of what is being preserved has previously burned down a couple of times.

I may joke about how impossible development is around here, but I do believe it can be made to work. I just think that the whole harbour view from everywhere mentality needs to stop if St. John's is going to grow in any realistic manner. Otherwise it seems that business is fine to come downtown as long as it's the business of selling knickknacks and knit items.

Frankly tourism shuts down on the island for the better part of nine months. How many gift shops can downtown really support through the winter months?
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  #1175  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2010, 12:56 AM
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The Fortis proposal included adding some space to the existing building on the lower floors, so I'm wondering if they will still do this as it was illustrated. I think an acceptable compromise to most people for the new building would have to be around 8 floors, but whether it would be economically viable is another question.

^Parks Canada makes reference to the "Water Street Historic Ditrict"; does this mean it already has some official status?
http://www.pc.gc.ca/docs/r/system-re...s-lieux65.aspx

^HomeInMyShoes your thread was great, such an original idea; a follow-up idea could be 100 different colours, and I think you would find them.
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  #1176  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2010, 2:52 AM
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yeah, clearly the fortis proposal was better than all current structures downtown over four stories; including atlantic place. no argument there.

i was totally for this development and definitely not part of the vocal minority who turn their noses up at seeing some progress in the downtown area. the 'right to views' argument does have to end, you're right. i'm not sure where people get that sort of entitlement when living in a city centre.

i was just thinking that, if st. john's really is expecting a prosperous future then maybe now we have an opportunity to develop a look for the city that's unique as well as economically functional. that's all. it would be nice to see the city work with developers in a cooperative manner to come up with a comprehensive plan for the city.
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  #1177  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2010, 3:22 AM
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I don't understand this whole entitlement to a view either. One old man, at that outrageous meeting, asked why did Fortis have the right to block his view, I was wondering why he thought he had the right to stop a $75 million development because he would lose his view. This same man said he had just moved back to the province after working away for like 40 years and here he's stopping a development which would keep young people working in St. John's. Do we want a retirement city?

These people also say Halifax is an ugly city which I don't understand. As much as Halifax pisses me off, just because it's the city St. John's should be, it has a beautiful skyline and was able to create a great mix of old and new without implementing a heritage district(till recently).

The economy of St. John's, as well as the economy of Newfoundland and Labrador, is heavily dependent on the decisions city council makes and at this rate it will suffer greatly.
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  #1178  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2010, 3:34 PM
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Halifax is far from ugly. They've successfully balanced heritage and development, and in my opinion is slightly more visually appealing than St. John's. They say tourists don't want to come to St. John's to see office buildings, yet Halifax has MANY more tourists a year. Maybe council should start considering that fact.
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  #1179  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2010, 3:45 PM
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There are other reasons that Halifax gets more tourists. It's easier to get to and it is a larger center. I love St. John's and think the island offers a one of a kind tourist experience, but it is difficult and expensive to get to, even if you've made it into another part of Canada it is difficult.

Airport connections will bring tourists to St. John's. Having to take a long expensive ferry is prohibitive to those on short time and small monetary budgets so the only way to get here is by plane. Halifax has four European flights (Iceland, Great Britain, France and Germany?) as well as well as five US flights (Chicago, New York, New Jersey, Boston, Cleveland).

St. John's currently has New Jersey and Great Britain on a seasonal basis (although that might be gone now if I remember).
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  #1180  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2010, 3:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niccanning View Post
i was just thinking that, if st. john's really is expecting a prosperous future then maybe now we have an opportunity to develop a look for the city that's unique as well as economically functional. that's all. it would be nice to see the city work with developers in a cooperative manner to come up with a comprehensive plan for the city.
I completely agree. St. John's has a wonderful vibe and they should preserve that. Right now I don't see much of a comprehensive plan outside of height restrictions for what seems like 100% of the core area. They've done nothing for the residents with respect to making Harbour Drive a great place to be or increasing park and green space for the core. Granted, they've been burned by a rather large development that is in my opinion a Berlin Wall to the Harbour (Atlantic Place). Unfortunately, when there's no reason to walk down to the Harbour than you need to be able to enjoy it from a distance. Too bad there's no foresight in developing a plan that can deal with this.

Any development taller than about five stories on the Fortis site is going to block the harbour view from the church area. In my mind, this is potentially a view worth saving. I'd have to go walk around again and get a feel for the views available.
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