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  #481  
Old Posted May 2, 2009, 11:12 PM
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That Condo Hotel looks like a decent development from what I can see. It will probably just get shot down like everything else though. Sometimes it just feels as though there is no point in trying to develop our city.

Also, it doesn't look like the dump is going anywhere soon with all this upgrading and whatnot which is pretty unfortunate. However, don't they say its not good to build on former waste disposal sites because of unstable ground and possible health hazards anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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  #482  
Old Posted May 2, 2009, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meese! View Post
That Condo Hotel looks like a decent development from what I can see. It will probably just get shot down like everything else though. Sometimes it just feels as though there is no point in trying to develop our city.

Also, it doesn't look like the dump is going anywhere soon with all this upgrading and whatnot which is pretty unfortunate. However, don't they say its not good to build on former waste disposal sites because of unstable ground and possible health hazards anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Yes, they probably would make it into a park as they did with the old one (Wishingwell), but there is lots of untouched land all around it right on the ocean. BTW, the Taxation Centre on Empire Ave is also built on the old dump. They had to take special measures in the design to take care of the methane and foundations.

Also, the condo project should nor get shot down since it is within the zoning requirements. The ones that did get shot down usually were not in accordance of zoning and height regulations. The design is another matter, a matter of taste as to whether you think it is appropriate or not.

Edit: The rendering in the paper looks quite a bit better than the one shown here, but I still think that there is lack of creativity, perhaps in Atlantic canada in general. In this case I understand that the zoning restrictions do play a big part, as noted in the article below.

Last edited by Architype; May 4, 2009 at 11:30 PM.
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  #483  
Old Posted May 2, 2009, 11:50 PM
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Here is a map showing the extent of the landfill, it's proximity to the ocean and city, and all the undeveloped area around it. Some of the terrain would not be the easiest to build on though. When the landfill was first put there the city was farther away of course. I wonder if it's the only landfill in Canada with a magnificent ocean view?

Last edited by Architype; May 3, 2009 at 4:26 AM.
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  #484  
Old Posted May 3, 2009, 6:00 PM
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It might be the nicest piece of land for a landfill anywhere in Canada.

The issue I have with the condo-hotel is the massing which does nothing to attempt to work with the overall rhthym of the structures in the core. As well, it would be nice to see some street-pedestrian interaction along Temperance street. It would be nice to have something leading people to walk along Harbour. I hate to bring it up again, but it's just another gigantic uninteresting wall in the harbour area like Atlantic Place is.

Reasonable design isn't rocket science, but it seems to be in most cities I've lived in.
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  #485  
Old Posted May 4, 2009, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes View Post
It might be the nicest piece of land for a landfill anywhere in Canada.

The issue I have with the condo-hotel is the massing which does nothing to attempt to work with the overall rhthym of the structures in the core. As well, it would be nice to see some street-pedestrian interaction along Temperance street. It would be nice to have something leading people to walk along Harbour. I hate to bring it up again, but it's just another gigantic uninteresting wall in the harbour area like Atlantic Place is.

Reasonable design isn't rocket science, but it seems to be in most cities I've lived in.
^Most, if not all landfills eventually are returned to nature, so to speak, although with this one it may not happen in our lifetimes.

As for the hotel/condo development, I know that the developer has a good reputation, and it's a good architectural firm, so I am a bit perplexed too. The actual building may look a lot better than a computer generated rendering, but I agree that the way it meets the street, and the incorporation of landscaping and public/semi-public spaces is important. However, with such a steep slope that would be somewhat difficult (not impossible) to do. Dissapointingly, there is nothing apparent that makes it distinctive; it's pretty basic and generic looking. The use of basic brick & window design is commonly used as an easy answer in most cities' heritage areas in the East as a substitute for real creative design, often because the heritage restrictions make it so frustrating for the designers.

Last edited by Architype; May 4, 2009 at 12:12 AM.
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  #486  
Old Posted May 4, 2009, 12:29 AM
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This article from The Telegram comments on some of the issues with downtown development -

Quote:
Playing by the rules
Municipal development Strict heritage regulations don't keep determined developers down; some find them downright inspiring

ALISHA MORRISSEY
The Telegram


While plenty of developers have complained that the heritage conservation rules in downtown St. John's are too rigid, there are some who say they have no problem going with the flow.

Kevin Nolan of Nolan Hall points to his company's hotel/condominium project on Temperance Street as an example of a development that follows city rules on height and heritage requirements, and takes neighbours' views into consideration, while still meeting the company's goals for the 123-suite structure.

The fact is, he says, it's easier to work with the city on building projects than to fight against them.

"There's heritage restrictions and there should be. ... I wouldn't want to see Water Street lined with highrises," Nolan says. "We would rather go with the current than against it."

Developers are not villains, he says, but they need to realize they'd be doing themselves an injustice by trying to build contemporary-looking structures in a heritage area.

Nolan says his company aims for heritage-style structures that fit the neighbourhoods they're built in. For example, when Nolan Hall was planning Place Bonaventure, an upscale condo development in the centre of town, it was granted permission for buildings up to 10-storeys high, but after the plans were completed with eight-storey buildings, they looked out of place and were scrapped in favour of the three- and four-storey buildings there today.

"For us to do anything different than what we did would be not fair. ... If you look at where Place Bonaventure is, it's in the midst of properties like the Basilica, St. Bonaventure's, the monastery. All 19th-century stunning architecture. We build to try to accent that, and blend it in," Nolan says.

"Obviously we didn't build it without making a profit. If we did we wouldn't be in business and the banks wouldn't want to lend to us, but there's a line there where you have to say as a company, part of the profit is the legacy that you leave behind."

While, Nolan admits his company's developments are pricier than some others, they work in a downtown that has always had some stately, higher-end homes.

Paul Blackwood, one of the founders of local architecture firm PHB Group, is working on the Temperance Street project with Nolan Hall, and has worked with a number of developers on downtown projects.

He said he often hears complaints about heritage regulations, but he believes fingers should be pointed at another problem: the steep cost of property.

"We're not in the economic side of it - we design what we believe to be a responsible urban design solution and we go from there," he explained.

"A lot of it dies on the drawing board because the purchase price of land has gone artificially high. You may need to develop a building that's 20 storeys high to make it feasible, and when the city rejects that development, the developer is saying, 'You're strangling development,' (when, really,) it's not economical to develop the property."

Blackwood says he'd like to be a part of any discussions the city might have regarding changing the heritage rules.

"We have no problem with the rules as they are, we have no problem with seeing the rules change, but have an open discussion, and informed, open debate ...," Blackwood says. "Whatever that is, we can work with it."

Jim Spatz, CEO of Southwest Properties, has filed plenty of applications with the city to develop downtown buildings and properties, and he's hoping the rules have a little wiggle room built in.

Last year, Southwest proposed to construct an 11-storey, four-star hotel at the corner of Water and Prescott streets. At the time, Spatz didn't think the project would be economically viable, given the city's height limit of 15 metres.

Now the proposal has been revised, but it still doesn't quite meet the restrictions; the company is hoping the city will allow a building height of 17.7 metres - 2.7 metres higher than the rules allow. "We need one more storey," Spatz says, explaining that the concept isn't feasible without a sixth floor.

amorrissey@thetelegram.com


02/05/09
Article: http://www.thetelegram.com/index.cfm?sid=247678&sc=82

Last edited by Architype; May 4, 2009 at 9:24 PM.
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  #487  
Old Posted May 4, 2009, 6:17 AM
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I thought about a few things I have seen used in design, and came up with a quick idea of my version of a design for the Temperance St site, or a site like it, in which I hoped to show that there is lots of room for playfulness using both modern and traditional ideas. The drawing is just a conceptual idea which is easy to do, compared with an actual project with real requirements and budget restraints. Anyway, this is just for fun, and even a design like this is pretty conservative in my opinion.

Click for larger image:

(Your opinion is welcome)

In the sketch, I tried to combine some elements of traditional residential rowhousing and commercial with a bit of modern, not sure if I succeeded (LOL), but this is the direction I think future design could be going in, rather than the more generic look.

Last edited by Architype; May 10, 2009 at 11:07 PM.
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  #488  
Old Posted May 4, 2009, 11:44 PM
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Rendering from the LUAR of the proposed Temperance St development. It looks considerably better here with more detailing visible. The massing of the building is determined by the site, and height and view considerations. If they pay attention to using quality materials, good details, and landscaping this one might turn out ok after all. As I said, the developer has a good reputation especially in high end buildings.

Edit - Here's a better rendering from the LUAR -


Source: http://www.stjohns.ca/cityservices/p...20Mar%2009.pdf
Note: The LUAR pdf ^ gives many more details.

There are now a total of at least five hotel proposals for downtown, none of which have been built yet. I hope perhaps that this one gets built.

Last edited by Architype; May 8, 2009 at 7:04 AM.
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  #489  
Old Posted May 5, 2009, 9:18 PM
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Wow! Your concept drawing actually looks really great. If only it could be a bit more colorful to blend in, though that'd probably just look funny. Also, im liking the more detailed drawing of the condo hotel. The trees and everything look nice. Hopefully it goes through!
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  #490  
Old Posted May 6, 2009, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Meese! View Post
Wow! Your concept drawing actually looks really great. If only it could be a bit more colorful to blend in, though that'd probably just look funny. Also, im liking the more detailed drawing of the condo hotel. The trees and everything look nice. Hopefully it goes through!
Thanks Meese. Some might find my drawing hideous or too busy, but anyway, the look could be done by using different colours of brick or other materials; maybe with some setbacks and different features. IMO, bright colours would tend to look like replicas and maybe too cartoonish. The technique could be used easily on a flat site as well. In St. John's people usually complain that a building looks too big when surrounded by smaller buildings, so this would be one way of avoiding that perhaps. Using all flat surfaces, roofs, etc. is also a way to keep costs down.

Their actual building proposal, pictured above, is designed to be very low keyed and uniform, which can be a good thing too. Echo - hope it gets built too.

Last edited by Architype; May 8, 2009 at 7:02 AM.
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  #491  
Old Posted May 6, 2009, 1:24 AM
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Here's a funny little article about Mt Pearl, which is meant as satire.
Stuff Townies Like #1: Hating on Mount Pearl
http://signalblog.ca/?p=1958
Every city, or just about has a "Mt. Pearl", as far as I've seen. In Halifax it would be Lower Sackville or Dartmouth, in Vancouver it would be Surrey.

Although that article is meant to be funny; there's a little truth, although I remember driving through some of Mt. Pearl's newer areas and thought they were almost picture perfect small town/suburbia. Because Mt Pearl as a confined political entity has nowhere at present to expand, the city has nowhere to go but up, and it needs at least a small downtown area in order to thrive; something which looks, feels and actually works like a real downtown with some density for population increase, and not just a strip with a shopping centre.

Last edited by Architype; May 8, 2009 at 11:26 PM.
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  #492  
Old Posted May 8, 2009, 11:40 PM
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St. John's (Metro) ranks as the third highest city in the country for building permits' value per capita, and is the highest in actual numbers in Atlantic Canada, according to this chart from Stats Can. I'm not really sure how this translates into actual construction, but it should be an indication that things aren't going that bad, although most of it must be in the suburbs -



Source -
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=168160
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quoti...90506a-eng.htm

Last edited by Architype; May 8, 2009 at 11:56 PM.
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  #493  
Old Posted May 11, 2009, 10:17 PM
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Well I guess you guys already heard about the infrastructure money from the Federal Government. New overpasses, highways and sewage treatment to the masses! Nothing about the Gushue Highway in this article but it was mentioned on the news today. Going to be extended to the Goulds bypass road which is good for traffic congestion around Mt. Pearl and Kenmount Road. Heres the little article from the telegram website...

http://www.thetelegram.com/index.cfm?sid=250153&sc=79


As much as I like the idea of this highway being extended, I still feel a tad bitter about Mt. Pearl getting off without paying a cent, seeing as they will be the ones mostly using it. Guess being stubborn can pay off.
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  #494  
Old Posted May 11, 2009, 10:55 PM
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^And what a great lesson that is. Sheesh. Totally with you on the bitter part.

I'd put $50 of my taxes to it because it's valuable to the entire area. Idiots.

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  #495  
Old Posted May 12, 2009, 12:44 AM
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^ That's good news regarding infrastructure and the completion of the Gushue Highway. What St John's lacks in downtown "skyline" type development it will make up for in new roads and suburbs. True, the Gushue highway will lead straight to Mt Pearl; they will benefit greatly from it. New highways are always fun, in the meantime there will be a lot of digging and detours.

I'm not sure where this is - it looks like somewhere near Military Road?

Last edited by Architype; May 12, 2009 at 1:09 AM.
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  #496  
Old Posted May 12, 2009, 12:56 AM
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Convent Road down near Patrick Street. One of those random turns leading someplace very nice.
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  #497  
Old Posted May 12, 2009, 12:59 AM
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Convent Road down near Patrick Street. One of those random turns leading someplace very nice.
I was only off by a mile, I knew it looked Catholic.

Here's a link with more details on the infrastructure spending:

http://www.releases.gov.nl.ca/releas...tw/0511n01.htm
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  #498  
Old Posted May 12, 2009, 9:39 AM
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The Gushue extension will probably cut twenty minutes off my commute to Ferryland for a picnic. Ferryland Picnics opens this weekend. I was thinking of going, but the thought of having to wear ski-pants while enjoying my sandwich isn't sounding that appealing.
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  #499  
Old Posted May 15, 2009, 1:08 AM
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^ That's a funny post Homeinmyshoes. When I think of picnicing I visualize it on top of Signal Hill, and the phrase "Gone With The Wind" comes to mind.
_______________________________________

Here's an article regarding the Hotel proposal at Temperance Street. I noticed in the article and comments to the article that the most common issue is with the design. People think it could be better, and I'm inclined to agree; the design is a bit too generic (plain, ordinary, and which could be found anywhere). Aside from that, I think the overall quality of the building would be quite good based upon the reputation of the developer. If you look at their development on Bonaventure Avenue, the details and workmanship appear to be of quite good quality, among the best in the city, even though the design and building form itself is boring.
Link: http://www.nolanhall.com/placebonaventure.asp

The other issue is with traffic, especially with a five way intersection nearby at the top of the hill. I don't think that traffic would be a major issue, however, on Water Street itself where the entrance is going to be located. Maybe a light or set of lights needs to be installed at the intersection of Battery/Signal Hill/Empire/Temperance/Duckworth because that is a very tricky area to navigate.

Quote:
Planned hotel ugly, bad for traffic, Battery-area residents say

Last Updated: Thursday, May 14, 2009 | 9:29 AM NT Comments30Recommend23CBC News

A 123-room hotel planned for a spot near St. John's Harbour is hard on the eyes and will be worse on traffic, frustrated residents of the Battery neighbourhood told a public forum Wednesday night.

Nolan Hall Real Estate wants to build a hotel complex, which would include a mix of condominiums, on the former Power's Salvage site on Temperance Street, at the foot of the Battery, an old neighbourhood at the base of Signal Hill.

Writer Bernice Morgan said the planned design looks like a factory, and the type of building other cities are tearing down. She said she doesn't like that the hotel, if built, will destroy another important city view.

"I have a small window that looks out on the harbour, and I'm frightened to death," said Morgan, who jokingly added, "I'm planning on protecting it with a gun."

Battery resident Alison Dyer said putting up a hotel with that many rooms will cause even greater traffic problems in an area that can already be difficult, including the tricky, five-way intersection at the base of Signal Hill Road.

"Because I'm not putting my kids at risk, and that's what I feel like it is here now," Dyer told the meeting, which will help advise council on its decision.

On the sloping hills of downtown St. John's, views of Signal Hill, the harbour and other city landmarks have become prized, and the city maintains strict development rules on height and other factors.

In recent months, citizen concerns about another hotel planned just a few few blocks away, on Water Street, prompted council to turn down the development, at least as proposed.

Bill Kelly told the meeting that trust is an issue for him, as Nolan Hall broke the city's development rules with a series of townhouse built years ago next to the Benevolent Irish Society. The structures exceeded the height limit for views from Military Road.

"All you have to do is look at that development across from the [Roman Catholic] Basilica. When it wound up, it wasn't where it should have been. It was way above it," Kelly said.

John Walsh, who has lived in the Battery for more than 70 years, thinks the area is losing its identity.

"I was down in the east end before there was any hotel, only one.… Now they're building hotels all around me," he said.

John Goodman believes the development will destroy a special part of St. John's, and urged council to protect it.

"Wouldn't it be nice if we could make decisions … about our city that took into account romance instead of just finance," Goodman said.
Source Article, (with illustration & comments worth reading):
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/newfoundlan...eting-514.html
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  #500  
Old Posted May 15, 2009, 1:45 AM
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Somewhat in defense of this hotel, here is a better rendering of the Temperance Street elevation. I think it is somewhat acceptable, although it does not do much to reflect the surroundings and traditional architecture of the city. At it's greatest height it is six stories, with a total of eight levels, but is within the requirements of the zoning regulations.


Image from the LUAR (Land Use Assesment Report) Source: http://www.stjohns.ca/cityservices/p...20Mar%2009.pdf
Note: The LUAR pdf ^ gives many more details.
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