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  #21  
Old Posted May 8, 2014, 6:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Simplicity View Post
Of course I would like to see more development. It's good for everybody in this city. It's a huge part of our economy and keeps a lots of people employed and that's good news all around.
Given the realities is there anything you feel could - in the short term - progress in that direction?

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It's not that I don't get excited about things, it's that I get more annoyed than anything at a lot of the things proposed because they're totally unrealistic from the beginning, and they either don't get built or they get scaled back because that's the only way they get built, and then trust is eroded as proposals are floated that the developer knows they can never construct just to gain public sentiment. Or they float them, get everybody in a lather, and then immediately run to government to close the budgetary gaps. (Ahem, SkyCity...)
I don't disagree ultimately. Moves like that are sneaky and are two-faced for the tax paying public. However, part of the fun of this forum (at least for people like myself) is looking at these proposals and talking about what could be done, what is being done, things like that.

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It's also annoying when design professionals float concepts that aren't realistic in this city. The public has a certain expectation of what development should look like because there's no shortage of people writing about things happening in Calgary, and Toronto, and Vancouver, etc. where people pay $690/sq ft. But that stuff isn't realistic here. Not because there's no will or foresight or creative thought because its evident we have all of those things; it's because we can't support a lot of that development here. Why? You guessed it: the way our economy has taken shape. We like to think we're something we're not which leads to a dissonance between what we should have and what we actually do and whose fault that ultimately is. More often than not, of course, it's apparently the fault of some greedy developer who is just trying squeeze something out of the city and a complicit and feckless planning department who can't understand their role as the public steward, or a suburban mentality or whatever else the flavour do the day might be.

Sometimes this is true. But more often, it's that there's some insurmountable financial issue that's stopping things from proceeding because everybody wants to build the greatest thing they possibly can, sometimes they just can't.

And the materials we use, and the heights and densities we build at are all a function of the bottom line. To understand the why and the how of how any project ultimately manifests or doesn't is to understand how the money was spent and what's expected out of it. Save, of course, for a few institutional projects that don't have the same constraints, the majority of questions asked about projects comes down to the money.
There are some very interesting points and context here too. I can't comment much on it because its not something I know much of. But I do understand and agree where some of that frustration comes from - its tough to truly understand how every person does their job. Sort of like those mind-numbingly clueless callers who phone in TSN 1290 pouring gruelling misguided and incorrect frustrations after Jets games - apparently not really understanding anything about hockey.

Though perhaps there is merit to some criticisms. You mentioned elsewhere how there is much more money being wasted in Winnipeg, so perhaps criticism in certain areas is warranted or questioning what could be done differently.

In fact, these types of discussion points are another reason I enjoy coming to the forum.

If you don't mind, please expand on the bolded.

Quote:
I can assure you that most elements that are omitted (including entire commercial spaces at grade) have less to do with somebody's lack of adherence to certain design principles or outright dismissal of them than they do with money. That's why I give the responses I do; because they're part and parcel to the questions about why Winnipeg can't just do more to promote a 'better city'.

We could successfully develop this city - without subsidy - if the zoning by-laws were relaxed and there wasn't so much meddling from the public. Of course, that depends upon your idea of success, but it would happen gradually and over time and it wouldn't be beautiful and world class because that isn't the sort of city we are, but it would be functional and contributory and we'd still be 'steady-as-she-goes'. Instead, the city, with the help of the public, demands that we do our best to ignore our fiscal realities and try to create a world-class, pedestrian-friendly city in a geographic location where the majority of people barely leave the house for five months of the year.

Which is fine. I'm just not interested in being forced into buying the concept that governments who intervene in development markets build great cities, because they don't.
I respect this portion - fiscal realities will always be where the line is drawn.

I can't speak for the general public by large but many times posters on this forum express frustration (myself included - even though I don't live in Manitoba anymore) is because we do wish for more and want something better. For me, I have an affinity with Winnipeg, I think its a fantastic city and there is much I love about it, and will always love about it. I find the developments much more fascinating there out of interest.

Sure everything boils down to money at the end of the day, but many of us on this forum generally know that. Different posters also have different opinions, and if someone wants to express their frustration - that is their prerogative.

It would be nice to discuss how something could change

For example,for the Perimeter to be upgraded to safer standards and become truly free flow, would take a lot of money that the province likely can't afford in one go...But how then could they do something feasible? What type of plan could they roll out say over the next decade that would actually upgrade the ring road? I don't believe that they simple can't...I feel with some better management they could probably do something to figure that out. So what are the economics behind that? What could be done to make it work?

Last edited by roccerfeller; May 8, 2014 at 7:12 AM.
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  #22  
Old Posted May 8, 2014, 1:36 PM
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Housing starts January to March 2014.

50% multi-family

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/64-001-...3/t009-eng.htm
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  #23  
Old Posted May 8, 2014, 2:27 PM
Simplicity Simplicity is offline
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
Housing starts January to March 2014.

50% multi-family

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/64-001-...3/t009-eng.htm
Last post ever 'cause TrueViking's got this shit. He's a journalist, architect, public capital finance maven, economist, and urban planner. You're covered 'cause he's an expert in all. Just ask him.

But, I'll just close this out.

Unemployment was 5.5% as of December of 2013, not 5.4%. That's a lot of jobs (Stats Can). I said unemployment was off because it was. I've posted it before, so I won't again: full-time employment was down, part-time was up. It was broadly acknowledged by both Stats Can and CMHC that there was an erosion of quality employment in favour of marginal-attachment and service labour. It was also up to 5.6% in January and up a full percentage point from January 2013.

Anyway, no trend there to see obviously. TrueViking is your expert at cherry-picking statistics he doesn't understand how to read, so you'll be in good shape going forward.

Also, regarding that stupid comment about starts, I hope you at least get it this time: starts are bad right now. Condo inventories are higher than they've ever been in the new market and listings are at record highs in the resale sector. And they're both growing. They aren't indicative of anything except decisions made two years ago and they'll ensure a pullback for everybody because inventories don't portent good things when they just keep growing. And this isn't limited to the multi-family market: inventories are up over 11% across the entire housing market.

Stick to what you know, cowboy.

EDIT: "The trend in total housing starts edged upward in April, primarily due to an increase in the multi-family sector. While builders picked up production in April following a slow first quarter, softening demand due to lower employment and net migration should keep housing starts below 2013 levels moving forward,” - Diane Himbeault - Senior Market Analyst - CMHC Winnipeg

I guess somebody better tell CMHC not to worry. TrueViking's got the real analysis...

Last edited by Simplicity; May 8, 2014 at 2:39 PM.
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  #24  
Old Posted May 8, 2014, 8:11 PM
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At risk of further degrading the level of discourse in this forum I have to say that it seems like Simplicity REALLY needs to get laid or something.

Can't we drop the constant sardonic tone and personal attacks and just have civilized conversation?
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  #25  
Old Posted May 8, 2014, 10:16 PM
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Loonie at four-month high amid strong housing data; traders look to jobs report
By: Malcolm Morrison, The Canadian Press

The Canadian dollar closed at a four-month high Thursday while traders digested a stronger than expected reading on the housing sector and awaited the release of the April employment report Friday morning.

The currency gained 0.61 of a cent to 92.4 cents US as Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp. reported that housing starts came in at an annualized rate of 195,000 in April, higher than the 175,000 that economists had expected.

Meanwhile, Statistics Canada is expected to report the economy created about 16,000 jobs last month.

Con't @ http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/bus...258450111.html

Oh, thank you for this news CP ( I deal in much US to CAD transactions).
Some will find this positive news, others not so much...
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  #26  
Old Posted May 8, 2014, 11:26 PM
Winnipeg Architect Winnipeg Architect is offline
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[QUOTE=Simplicity;6569624]Last post ever 'cause TrueViking's got this shit. He's a journalist, architect, public capital finance maven, economist, and urban planner. You're covered 'cause he's an expert in all. Just ask him.

Stick to what you know, cowboy.

True: He is quick to knock down projects and he has never built a thing in his life but maybe a birdhouse.

Just a employee at Number 9 architects. That is all.

Feels like a big man here.
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  #27  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Simplicity View Post
Last post ever 'cause TrueViking's got this shit. He's a journalist, architect, public capital finance maven, economist, and urban planner. You're covered 'cause he's an expert in all. Just ask him.

But, I'll just close this out.

Unemployment was 5.5% as of December of 2013, not 5.4%. That's a lot of jobs (Stats Can). I said unemployment was off because it was. I've posted it before, so I won't again: full-time employment was down, part-time was up. It was broadly acknowledged by both Stats Can and CMHC that there was an erosion of quality employment in favour of marginal-attachment and service labour. It was also up to 5.6% in January and up a full percentage point from January 2013.

Anyway, no trend there to see obviously. TrueViking is your expert at cherry-picking statistics he doesn't understand how to read, so you'll be in good shape going forward.

Also, regarding that stupid comment about starts, I hope you at least get it this time: starts are bad right now. Condo inventories are higher than they've ever been in the new market and listings are at record highs in the resale sector. And they're both growing. They aren't indicative of anything except decisions made two years ago and they'll ensure a pullback for everybody because inventories don't portent good things when they just keep growing. And this isn't limited to the multi-family market: inventories are up over 11% across the entire housing market.

Stick to what you know, cowboy.

EDIT: "The trend in total housing starts edged upward in April, primarily due to an increase in the multi-family sector. While builders picked up production in April following a slow first quarter, softening demand due to lower employment and net migration should keep housing starts below 2013 levels moving forward,” - Diane Himbeault - Senior Market Analyst - CMHC Winnipeg

I guess somebody better tell CMHC not to worry. TrueViking's got the real analysis...
Umm. I didn't analyze anything. I posted a fact that 50% of housing starts this year are multi family. Not sure why you're all bent out of shape about it. It's just a fact. Why are you arguing with yourself?

As for the rest. I posted a government document showing that the unemployment rate contradicted your adamant assertion. You dressed down another poster telling him that the document he referenced was incorrect. It wasn't. In fact now you are saying the document I posted is wrong and the number he posted that you took such offence to is right! Nobody said anything about part time, full time, etc. He posted a link. You said it was wrong and incorrectly ridiculed him for it.

I love when guys get personal on a web site forum. Hiding behind their anonymous avatar. It's when you know they have no response. Doesnt bother me.

I've never even built a birdhouse...might get a sliver in my soft soft hands.

Last edited by trueviking; May 9, 2014 at 1:06 AM.
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  #28  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 12:54 AM
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Wait...I built a pencil holder in grade 10 shops class. Does that count for anything?
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  #29  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 1:30 AM
Simplicity Simplicity is offline
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
Umm. I didn't analyze anything. I posted a fact that 50% of housing starts this year are multi family. Not sure why you're all bent out of shape about it. It's just a fact. Why are you arguing with yourself?

As for the rest. I posted a government document showing that the unemployment rate contradicted your adamant assertion. You dressed down another poster telling him that the document he referenced was incorrect. It wasn't. In fact now you are saying the document I posted is wrong and the number he posted that you took such offence to is right! Nobody said anything about part time, full time, etc. He posted a link. You said it was wrong and incorrectly ridiculed him for it.

I love when guys get personal on a web site forum. Hiding behind their anonymous avatar. It's when you know they have no response. Doesnt bother me.

I've never even built a birdhouse...might get a sliver in my soft soft hands.
Just have to correct your last post so nobody is confused by your ignorance.

When the quality of employment is down, it is down. When total hours are down because more people are part-time and fewer people full-time, employment is down. It just doesn't show up in the rate - it shows up in the GDP. Which was what again? Down. And under target.

Keep going, bud. You've got all the answers...

http://www.esdc.gc.ca/eng/jobs/lmi/p.../feb2014.shtml
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  #30  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 2:27 AM
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There's no need to go picking fights that aren't there, Simplicity.
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  #31  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 5:31 AM
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There's no need to go picking fights that aren't there, Simplicity.
Lol, the irony...
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  #32  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 12:13 PM
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There's no need to go picking fights that aren't there, Simplicity.
Wow, just wow.
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  #33  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 1:28 PM
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......See, this is all good stuff. Insults and dick measuring all in one neat contained thread. I like that it isn't invading other threads and actually find it entertaining. Lets not get too personal so I can continue to enjoy the heated DEBATE.....errrr, conversation?......ummmm.......argument......

what-ever it is, I'm glad it has its own thread.

Thank you Gentlemen
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  #34  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 2:44 PM
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
ok......go....freak out with a nine paragraph diatribe!!!!!
Haha. Thanks guys, this is making the forum readable again by keeping all of this garbage here.
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  #35  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 3:48 PM
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Why is it when someone takes on the task of revealing some of the economic realities of development in this city it is referred to as dick waving? What harm has Simplicity caused except to perhaps dampen some of the teenage hipster urbanite optimism that is so rampant here, complete with its dismissal of any semblance of economic consideration.

I call this messenger shooting.

I've learned a lot from him and so have all of you. The difference is that I take it as learning and you take it as an insult to your city. Which it certainly is not, facts are sometimes tough.

Cue all the insults and old man jokes. (I'm not actually old, I'm middle-aged.)
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  #36  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 4:34 PM
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^^^^ I agree, to a point. I have learned quite a bit from him as well and enjoyed his contribution. The problem arose when literally in every project thread, he turned into an economics lesson on how Winnipeg can't afford to have most of these projects or how they are not economically feasible. Then all the threads turned into bickering and arguing over the truths.......pages and pages of arguing which distracted from the initial purpose of each thread. It is interesting to read once, but his theme is exactly the same in every post.

Now he just comes off as condescending, trying to force his view point over and over.


......the dick waiving is referring to this thread only....i'm smarter than you, your facts are wrong, etc......
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  #37  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 4:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
I call this messenger shooting.
I am not sure it's so much the message as it is the messenger.

Simplicity has a way of conveying information that is condescending, and more or less asshole-ish.

He gets the conversation going, but the conversation turns into a train wreck.

Incidentally, IMO you also suffer from this same posting tone affliction, but it seems that you have more or less toned it down as of late.
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  #38  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 5:13 PM
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try not to kill each other now u guys
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  #39  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 5:23 PM
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Simplicity has a way of conveying information that is condescending, and more or less asshole-ish.
As do you, but I don't bring it up because I assume you're a kid.

How about just asking him to be a little more sunshiny and continue to learn from him?

The dick-headedness goes both ways in most cases, or so it seems.
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  #40  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 6:00 PM
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It's not that we're trying to be ignorant to his facts.

I could keep re-posting "The NHL is back, the NHL is back!" in every single forum and it would get old pretty quick. It is relevant to downtown development, one way or another. Even though the actual spin-offs are suspect at best. See how this goes... Turns into a big circle jerk.
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