Redeveloped inner city would be a huge win

[KevinFromTexas]

Web Posted: 01/27/2010 12:00 CST
Redeveloped inner city would be a huge win

Scott Stroud

Mayor Julián Castro made a point of noting that he didn't attend last week's grand opening of the JW Marriott San Antonio Hill Country Resort & Spa.

Instead, he was at the East Side Development Reinvestment Summit, part deux, telling a roomful of developers gathered at the Red Berry Mansion that the city is open for business and wants to put specific deals together to reinvigorate the central city, starting on the East Side.

...

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/loc..._huge_win.html

[miaht82]

Originally Posted by KevinFromTexas

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/loc..._huge_win.html

If and when this takes off, it will be succesful in part to the hard work of some of the residents of these inner-city neighborhoods. I know this article and summits are specific to the East side, but any economic impact will have a resonating impact throughout center city. Its pretty safe to say that Tobin Hill is headed in the right direction. Of course that needed many things to fall into place:

• Private interest and investment on Main/St. Mary's
• SAC expanding all the way to Main St.
• Brownstone adding more housing/density by building townhomes
• Private investors renovating homes &
• Residents renovating their own homes

These things just add to the lure of this neighborhood to new residents, but of course other factors working in its favor; its proximity to Monte Vista, Trinity, Brackenridge Park/Zoo, Pearl Brewery, Ft. Sam, and eventually River North.

The East side isn't as lucky geographically, but if it can catch any momentum it would be great. I see a lack of real density as part of the problem; hopefully the idea for the street car running around St. Paul Sq. will address this problem for the inner East side.

I'm quite impressed with the Mayor and his willingness to take on the challenge of this ongoing problem. It's a win-win situation. If the Mayors plan fails, it's not like the East side took a step back; a step side-ways maybe, but he didn't exactly "fail." If he succeeds, it will pay off greatly for the Mayors political future.

[KevinFromTexas]

The fact that the mayor shunned the Marriott resort since it's very detached from the city, is a pretty clear sign he's more interested in what will actually bring jobs, a tax base and people to the core. The Marriott resort is great, but it's so far out. I used Google Earth to view the property, and it's in the middle of nowhere. It's great to see a mayor who is focusing on the inner city and breathing new life back into it. It's encouraging. Remember that most of the tall buildings in the city increased the value of the land they're sitting on. They're taxed higher than say a car wash, small apartment complex or a grocery store would be. The money from those property taxes are spread all over the city to help pay for city services like fire, EMS, schools, garbage collection, streets and utilities. Something like 80 percent of the money collected from property taxes in downtown Austin are used all over the city. I'm sure San Antonio does the same thing.

Besides the taxes that pay for everything, it's always best to have your urban core be healthy. Have the focus on the center of the city, not the suburbs or suburban/rural areas of town.

[tgannaway89]

Originally Posted by KevinFromTexas

The Marriott resort is great, but it's so far out. I used Google Earth to view the property, and it's in the middle of nowhere.

It's NOT in the middle of nowhere. Tons of new housing (including multifamily housing) and retail projects have gone up near the new resort. Roads are being widened and new schools are being built. Lots of new stuff is planned for Cibolo Canyons. People WANT to live in the high-end suburban areas. We cannot force everyone to live in a compact urban environment. If you look at projected growth maps of San Antonio the highest population gainers are areas outside of Loop 1604.

http://www.cibolocanyons.com/masterPlan.aspx

Elected officials that ignore the desires of their suburban constituents will not stay in office long.

[KevinFromTexas]

I'm not talking about the city turning its back on the suburban areas, rather putting more focus back into the core. It's been the inner city that has been neglected for years, and that's not only true for San Antonio, but many cities. Only recently have things changed. Of course no one is suggesting leaving the suburbs to decay either, but it's been the city's turn for a while now. And yes, that is way out in the middle of nowhere. 1604 doesn't feel at all like San Antonio. It could be Houston's suburban areas, it could be anywhere.

There's also the issue of quality in the suburbs. It's pretty bad when half of your backyard slides down a hill like that one in Northwest San Antonio. The City should be thinking more about the longterm - about what's good for the community and quality construction, not quantity. New housing and development shouldn't only be about making money, it's also about providing a quality product. This isn't a bash on San Antonio, rather the developers. But the City could be more picky about stuff. Austin has had the same problems, so I won't pretend we're better or perfect.

I just think it's insulting to San Antonio to see people sing the praises of some sprawling resort and golf course that's basically outside of the city, while the inner city is in need of help. And let's face it, tourists don't come to San Antonio for 1604. Anyway, I wouldn't complain if this was another city we're talking about. I want to see San Antonio thrive. I love the place.

[kornbread]

Sometimes tourists do go to 1604, if they plan on visiting Seaworld, Fiesta Texas or any of the resorts.

Sure areas of downtown have been neglected and it is good to hear them talking about spending to help revive the city's core, but "Starting on the East Side"? Why?

Start with areas where there is some positive change already taking place. Support those areas. The east side needs to take some initiative before I would start spending much money there.

[miaht82]

Originally Posted by tgannaway89

It's NOT in the middle of nowhere. Tons of new housing (including multifamily housing) and retail projects have gone up near the new resort. Roads are being widened and new schools are being built. Lots of new stuff is planned for Cibolo Canyons. People WANT to live in the high-end suburban areas. We cannot force everyone to live in a compact urban environment. If you look at projected growth maps of San Antonio the highest population gainers are areas outside of Loop 1604.

http://www.cibolocanyons.com/masterPlan.aspx

Elected officials that ignore the desires of their suburban constituents will not stay in office long.

Well.... Maybe the Mayor of NB showed up; it is almost as close to their city hall as it is to ours.
And where do I start.... So, we are building new roads, and building new schools when our existing roads are falling apart and schools are closing for lack of attendence, plus we're adding more residents to an area of town that doesn't have proper roads or a real solution to that problem in the near future; doesn't sound too sustainable to me. High-end? New doesn't mean high-end.
And again, of course the areas outside 1604 are going to have the highest population gain; where there was one farm/house, there will be 300 houses and there is tons of space out there.
Let's see, a majority of voters still live inside 1604, I doubt that any of these "suburban" constituents cared if the resort was there or not.

[STLtoSA]

The East Side is a great place to start.

There are projects like the Hays St Pedestrian bridge, various road and sidewalk improvement, as well as some development along commerce that are part of the framework that should help bring this area back. Then there some of the residential initiatives that have helped these processes get rolling.

That whole area with IH 37. Sherman, New Braunfels, and Commerce (or even down to Iowa) as border streets has a lot of potential.

It would be great to see it become a really good "urban" neighborhood.

[KevinFromTexas]

Yes, I have visited the 1604 area...twice. For Six Flags. But I've been downtown countless times and I've been to the zoo and Brackenridge Park and the Botanical Gardens multiple times.

[tgannaway89]

Over 700,000 residents live outside Loop 410. Developers are just following the residents. Projects like Vistana and Vidorra struggle to find residents while new apartments near UTSA/medical center fill up before they are even built! People like depending on their automobiles. People like spacious houses and large yards. People like living in the hill country. San Antonio's inner-city tends to be fake urban redevelopment. Block after block of single-family residence is not urban.

[kornbread]

Originally Posted by KevinFromTexas

Yes, I have visited the 1604 area...twice. For Six Flags. But I've been downtown countless times and I've been to the zoo and Brackenridge Park and the Botanical Gardens multiple times.

Like I said, sometimes tourists do go to 1604.

[KevinFromTexas]

Originally Posted by tgannaway89

People like depending on their automobiles. People like spacious houses and large yards. People like living in the hill country.

People like living in the hill country, but really they shouldn't since that setting isn't sustainable and just takes away from the natural beauty of San Antonio. And if people want to live there then they shouldn't complain about gas prices or their house falling off a hill.

Originally Posted by tgannaway89

San Antonio's inner-city tends to be fake urban redevelopment. Block after block of single-family residence is not urban.

Exactly. And that is exactly what is being built along 1604. I don't think anyone here is saying that is urban, but if anything is fake it's the stuff being built out along 1604. I'm confident that whatever urban developments San Antonio plans for its core will be urban and not "fake". The city just needs to get its foot in the door to getting that started.

Originally Posted by tgannaway89

Projects like Vistana and Vidorra struggle to find residents while new apartments near UTSA/medical center fill up before they are even built!

I don't believe that's entirely true. Vistana and Vidorra have had successes filling up. The reason for a lack of new residential highrise construction now is not because of a lack of interest by potential buyers of the current projects, but rather the banks not lending. The same thing has happened in Austin. Some projects that were proposed and were very ambitious, have either had to postpone or even cancel because they aren't getting the lending from the banks. But the existing projects are filling fast. This is not San Antonio's fault, or a lack of urban minded people in the city, just that the economy isn't favoring highrise construction.

Originally Posted by tgannaway89

Over 700,000 residents live outside Loop 410.

If this is true then no one can say that San Antonio is dense. That only leaves about 500,000 inside of 410. So San Antonio would infact be more suburban than urban - and less dense than it should be. And it is, because just look at some of the neglected areas of the city. The East Side in some places is in horrible shape. That's a disgrace. The central part of the city should always be the most vibrant and most attractive.

Originally Posted by tgannaway89

Developers are just following the residents.

So those residents set up tents first and waited for the developers? Wrong, the developers built there first, and then the residents came. And unfortunately that became a bad habit.

I love San Antonio to death, but it's times like these that I realize how different it is than the city I call home. Not only the built environment, but the attitudes by its residents. Not saying it's a bad thing, just that the two cities are very different. There needs to be a balance and mix of both. It's not healthy for San Antonio to focus too much on the suburban areas while the inner city is left to decay eventually. Doesn't anyone care about the central part of the city? I could care less about 1604. I never go to San Antonio thinking "Ooh, let's go to 1604 for some of that San Antonio flavor!"

Anyway, I like where the mayor is going with things. It's encouraging to see one that actually cares about the city's core. That's a rarity in Texas. Only someone who was born and raised in San Antonio, and actually loves the city, would understand it.

[miaht82]

Originally Posted by tgannaway89

Over 700,000 residents live outside Loop 410. Developers are just following the residents. Projects like Vistana and Vidorra struggle to find residents while new apartments near UTSA/medical center fill up before they are even built! People like depending on their automobiles. People like spacious houses and large yards. People like living in the hill country. San Antonio's inner-city tends to be fake urban redevelopment. Block after block of single-family residence is not urban.

You have it reversed; the residents are following the developers, and it is an outward march.
...and thank you for proving my point.
Block after block of single-family homes? It sounds like the suburbs now (except the block part; it's more like acres and acres.)
At one time (80-100 years ago,) those homes in center city were new, and the main arterial roads were lined with stores. Once those homes got "old," newer homes were built out around 410, and business followed it. With such a huge population boom, 5 malls were built, of which 3 still exist, 4 if you count the Rackspace HQ's, and one of those is hanging on by a thread.
At one time, the area around 410 was considered "high-end." As the suburbs kept expanding, businesses followed the housing, and that brings us to about 15 years ago (Huebner) and where we are today.
Do you see a trend here? What's pretty today will not be so pretty tomorrow. There's a reason the newest development "latches" on to the first available space in the "city." Even developers know that the suburbs have a limit. If people "want" to live in the hill country, and want cheap housing, then towns like Boerne and Bulverde would be filled with developments.
Think 10 years from now, and in the meantime, I encourage you to travel to larger urban areas in our country, even those outside of Texas can be picked for comparison. American trends are very similar and you can see the evolution of a city in other cities across the country (Think: what did Houston look like when it had 1.8 million people.) If we compare the two, I think we might actually have a pretty good head start on "urban" living. Sometimes we skip through "eras" but for the most part, the evolution is fairly similar in cities with a "sizeable" suburban population.
We've had this discussion before and yes, center city is more urban based on it's walkability and connectivity.

[adtobias]

San Antonio is 20-30 years away from getting the idea of urban living.

[SAguy]

Originally Posted by adtobias

San Antonio is 20-30 years away from getting the idea of urban living.

dude, you never have any positive to say about SA so do us a favor and LEAVE!!

[miaht82]

Originally Posted by adtobias

San Antonio is 20-30 years away from getting the idea of urban living.

I'm thinking more like 4-7, maybe sooner if my predictions of the BRAC effect are right.
I expect nothing but chaos on 35/Walters come late summer 2011.

[adtobias]

Truth

[sirkingwilliam]

Originally Posted by tgannaway89

Over 700,000 residents live outside Loop 410. Developers are just following the residents. Projects like Vistana and Vidorra struggle to find residents while new apartments near UTSA/medical center fill up before they are even built! People like depending on their automobiles. People like spacious houses and large yards. People like living in the hill country. San Antonio's inner-city tends to be fake urban redevelopment. Block after block of single-family residence is not urban.

Tganna, you really don't have to try and sell hard for one side over the other. For any successful city/metro there must be a balance between urban and suburban. To vindicate one and villainize the other does no one any good. No one's going to stop wanting to live in sprawl in the suburbs and no one is going to stop wanting to live densely in the urban core[s].

One isn't better than the other but both need each other to succeed.

[sirkingwilliam]

Originally Posted by adtobias

San Antonio is 20-30 years away from getting the idea of urban living.

[tgannaway89]

Keeping your fingers crossed doesn't constitute an "awakening" that will fill our core in less than a decade. In the next decade we will only see more expansions like Alamo Ranch and Cibolo Canyons. Boerne, Helotes, Shertz, Bulverde, etc. will indeed continue to grow into major suburbs. You can't blame the developers. If these houses weren't selling they wouldn't be building them.

Medtronics, USAA, Valero, NuStar, Tesoro, etc. all chose to locate in areas closer to where their employees live.

There have been numerous attempts to redevelop the core. AT&T Center, UTSA-Downtown, Guadalupe Association, and others have not been very successful at changing the areas they occupy. People have decided not to follow these trends.

I'm sorry that our city still prefers the suburban life, but your opinion isn't going to sway many people. I hope that the streetcar system will help push this change.

The same ideas you are all championing are not new. There has been a large effort to redevelop the inner city for a while. Fixing up a bridge is not going to make much of a difference.

Do not pretend Austin is any different. Government officials and wealthy college professors have filled a few sporadic high-rise condos. Most new developments still take place in suburban areas. You just tend to separate these areas by calling them Round Rock, Cedar Park, and Pflugerville.