Atlantic Canada airport thread

[Ire Narissis]

The frustrating thing, too, is that we're in kind of a chicken-or-egg scenario with pricing.

People won't fly out of NB airports until the prices go down; prices won't go down until more people are flying out of NB airports.

I'm going to Seattle this summer and I'm flying out of Halifax because the flights are $400 cheaper than flying out of Saint John, Moncton, or even Bangor (which surprised me). I'd love to fly out of YSJ to support my local airport, but the fact of the matter is I simply can't afford it... it's more economical for me to pay for gas and parking to drive to Halifax and fly from there. :/

[MonctonRad]

Using the link supplied by q12 on the previous page, I thought I would do a side-by-side comparison of flight routes out of the airports serving the "big seven" Atlantic Canadian airports.

The "Big Two"


Halifax (YHZ)


St. John's (YYT)

The "Next Two"


Moncton (YQM)


Fredericton (YFC)

The "Final Three"


Charlottetown (YYG)


Saint John (YSJ)


Sydney (YQY) - pretty sad really........

[Taeolas]

I'm rather impressed at how well YFC is doing compared to YQM. As for the NB Airport situation, I'm not sure what could be done about it short of inventing a time machine and locating the NB Airport in Sussex.

Ultimately, like most things in NB, it'll come down to having good guiding hands, able to nurture and grow all three cities to the point where they can stand well on their own, and can punch stronger together. That means good leadership both at the 3 municipal levels and the provincial level; leadership that can cooperate and make hard decisions when needed.

I'm not seeing that leadership happening anytime soon.

[J81]

Those are not 100% accurate. It doesnt show a flight to Puerto Plata from Moncton which there is and there is no flight to St Johns from either airport.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by J81

Those are not 100% accurate. It doesnt show a flight to Puerto Plata from Moncton which there is and there is no flight to St Johns from either airport.

Yeah, I was aware of the missing Puerto Plata flight from Moncton. The Freddy/Moncton flights to St. John's I think are Sunwing flights making a pit stop before heading south.

I'm assuming there are similar inaccuracies for each map however, and the main purpose for posting the maps is for relative comparison purposes, showing which airports are doing a good job and which ones aren't........

Originally Posted by Taeolas

I'm rather impressed at how well YFC is doing compared to YQM. As for the NB Airport situation, I'm not sure what could be done about it short of inventing a time machine and locating the NB Airport in Sussex.

Indeed.

Regardless of the few inaccuracies, it's obvious that Fredericton is right up there with Moncton in terms of route destinations. A single airport in NB located in Sussex is never going to happen now. One wonders though if there shouldn't just be two airports in the province - one for eastern NB and the other for western NB (Freddy perhaps).........

[q12]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Sydney (YQY) - pretty sad really........

Sydney is actually well served through Halifax year round. With 7 flights a day (5 Air Canada, 2 Westjet) all on 50 to 78 seat aircraft. Compared with the N.B. airports and Charlottetown, return ticket prices to Halifax from Sydney are on average $200 cheaper thanks to competition on the route.

There have been seat sales where you can fly from Halifax to Sydney for as low as $49. Currently I can find a one way ticket on Air Canada for $117 in June. It's more than $100 extra to fly one way to the other Maritime airports.

[MonctonRad]

Yes, and I'm sure all denizens of the CBRM are most pleased that they have to make a pit stop in foggy Halifax on their travels to everywhere else in the known world too.

Problems with hub & spoke:
- hard on your ears
- more expensive
- long layovers waiting for connections
- missing luggage
- potential weather delays
- risk of missing connections

No two ways about it - Sydney may not be the end of the world, but you can see it from there........

[J81]

The talk of building a single airport in Sussex really gets under my skin and i think Its ridiculous. Having a single airport in the middle of nowhere in NB would accomplish nothing. Look at how well Mirabel worked out being placed north of Montreal. Nothing left there but cargo flights and Bombardier. The issue in NB is the lack of interest by any carrier to expand flights to anywhere but the destinations currently served which are mostly hubs in their network with the exception of Ottawa. The business community has supported a transborder flight in the past and would do so again if a carrier could be persuaded to do it. The fact is that even if there was one central airport in NB or even a designated "focus" airport ( never going to happen either ) the chances of it being a hub are nearly zero with halifax just 100 miles away. Westjet tried it here before they went to halifax and it just didnt work. All we would end up with is an hour long car ride to the airport to catch the same flight to Toronto as we have now that i can get in a cab and be at the airport in 10 minites.

[Marty_Mcfly]

Originally Posted by J81

Those are not 100% accurate. It doesnt show a flight to Puerto Plata from Moncton which there is and there is no flight to St Johns from either airport.

As far as I know, there are no direct flights between St. John's and any New Brunswick airport.

[Sunnybrae]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Yes, and I'm sure all denizens of the CBRM are most pleased that they have to make a pit stop in foggy Halifax on their travels to everywhere else in the known world too.

Problems with hub & spoke:
- hard on your ears
- more expensive
- long layovers waiting for connections
- missing luggage
- potential weather delays
- risk of missing connections

No two ways about it - Sydney may not be the end of the world, but you can see it from there........

The airlines are not changing hub and spoke. It is a profitable system for them.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by q12

Sydney is actually well served through Halifax year round. With 7 flights a day (5 Air Canada, 2 Westjet) all on 50 to 78 seat aircraft. Compared with the N.B. airports and Charlottetown, return ticket prices to Halifax from Sydney are on average $200 cheaper thanks to competition on the route.

You've violated one of the commandments of SSP Canada, and the Atlantic section in particular: Thou shalt not admit that Halifax is any different from any other town in Atlantic Canada! Corollary: never admit that it may make practical sense for services, business, etc. to be concentrated there, and definitely don't admit that such concentration could have happened naturally instead of nefariously!

It would be nice if Sydney had flights to more places but all of Cape Breton has about 130,000 people. Economically right now it is not possible for them to support a wide variety of flights, and they are probably better off connecting than they would be paying a lot more for a limited selection of direct flights.

[q12]

Originally Posted by someone123

You've violated one of the commandments of SSP Canada, and the Atlantic section in particular: Thou shalt not admit that Halifax is any different from any other town in Atlantic Canada! Corollary: never admit that it may make practical sense for services, business, etc. to be concentrated there, and definitely don't admit that such concentration could have happened naturally instead of nefariously!

It would be nice if Sydney had flights to more places but all of Cape Breton has about 130,000 people. Economically right now it is not possible for them to support a wide variety of flights, and they are probably better off connecting than they would be paying a lot more for a limited selection of direct flights.

Ha, Ha, well said. Although there may be a market for a direct flight from Sydney, NS to Sydney, Australia as apparently it's a real problem with people flying to Cape Breton thinking they are going down under.

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/...otia-1.4047709

Thursday March 30, 2017

A tale of two Sydneys: Dutch teen tries to visit Australia, but ends up in Nova Scotia



When Milan Schipper was looking at flights from Amsterdam to Sydney, he found one ticket that was almost $300 cheaper than the rest.

"So I thought, 'Well, let's book that one,'" the 18-year-old Dutch man told As It Happens host Carol Off.

He was planning on spending some time in Australia before starting college — backpacking along the lush coastal landscapes, and maybe working a little. But instead he ended up in an airport on Canada's East Coast the weekend before last, facing down a blizzard.

"I thought I was going to Australia, but that turned out a little different," he said with a chuckle.

He first realized something wasn't quite right when he landed in Toronto for a stopover and caught a glimpse of the Air Canada plane that would take him to his final destination.

"The plane was really small and so I figured, would that make it to Australia?" he said.

He boarded it anyway. Then he saw the map on the screen on the seat in front of him.

"I saw the flight plan was going to go right, not left. It was about the time that I realized there was another Sydney," he said.

"I felt terrible. I think I [swore] in my head for like 10 minutes. But there was nothing I could do about it because I was already up in the air."

Not properly dressed

He landed in snow-covered Sydney, N.S., with a blizzard on the horizon, sporting nothing but a T-shirt, sweatpants and a thin jacket.

"I was not dressed for the occasion," he said.

He found some airport employees and explained the situation. They booked a flight straight back to Toronto, and from there, home, where his very amused father picked him up at the airport.

"He felt really sorry for me, but he thought ... only I could do such a thing," Schipper said. "He also laughed an awful lot — just like everyone else."

His father, however, is incorrect. There was a U.S. woman on the same flight as him who made the same error, he said.

What's more, in 2002 two British teenagers ended up in Sydney, N.S., while trying to visit the Land Down Under, as did an Argentine tourist in 2008, a Dutch man and his grandson in 2009 and an Italian couple in 2010.

In the latter case, they stayed in town for a few days and enjoyed some fresh seafood and Cape Breton hospitality.

Schipper, however, didn't stick around long enough to take in the sights and sounds of Canada's East Coast.

"I only saw the parking lot of the airport," he said.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

You've violated one of the commandments of SSP Canada, and the Atlantic section in particular: Thou shalt not admit that Halifax is any different from any other town in Atlantic Canada! Corollary: never admit that it may make practical sense for services, business, etc. to be concentrated there, and definitely don't admit that such concentration could have happened naturally instead of nefariously!.

I am willing to let the myth of Halifax exceptionalism (also known as the "shining city on the hill" thesis) stand for those in Nova Scotia. Those of us in New Brunswick however would prefer to be masters of our own destiny.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I am willing to let the myth of Halifax exceptionalism (also known as the "shining city on the hill" thesis) stand for those in Nova Scotia. Those of us in New Brunswick however would prefer to be masters of our own destiny.

I don't think there's something special in the water there. There are just a lot more people near YHZ, and there is a lot more demand for flights there than anywhere in Cape Breton or for that matter any particular spot in NB or PEI.

The primary evidence for this is that there are way more passengers travelling through YHZ than through the other airports. One might argue that this is inflated by connections via other airports like Moncton but you seem to disagree with this notion can it can't go both ways. In any case it's not a completely random place for the busiest airport in Atlantic Canada to be. And it's not surprising to most people that smaller places like Sydney have fewer connections to other airports.

[stephan.richard]

In New Brunswick we are caught between a rock and a Hardplace when it comes to flights.. On one hand we have YHZ that's 2:30 hours drive from YQM and 4-5 hours to BGR and that could be said for the other airports in the province. I would certain;y wish we had a direct air link to the US in the province either VIA BOS, NYC, CHI. and ATL. The main thing it has been tried time and time again and that has been met with failure. Right now lets be realistic the low US dollar isn't making that option viable. What I would love to see is to see airlines offer more flights within Canada from Moncton like a direct YYC, YYT or even YVR flight to facilitate connectors to Pacific points. And one more thing i hate to say is for the province to designate the focus airport and allocate the resources to that one airport. I love the Nova Scotia Model where EVERYTHING international funnels though YHZ. But within the current situation that we are in in New Brunswick i don't see that coming anytime soon. We in NB have to compete with Halifax and the airports in Maine (BGR and PWM).

[OliverD]

A lot of people in NB fly from YHZ for various reasons. I've done it in the past and I'm doing it this summer. Flying to Europe out of NB kind of sucks because you have to fly west to YYZ or YUL before proceeding east. So yes there is a drive to YHZ but the ensuing flight is also shorter. I think I prefer that drive + shorter flight over short flight + longer flight – especially when saving money on top of that.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by OliverD

A lot of people in NB fly from YHZ for various reasons. I've done it in the past and I'm doing it this summer. Flying to Europe out of NB kind of sucks because you have to fly west to YYZ or YUL before proceeding east. So yes there is a drive to YHZ but the ensuing flight is also shorter. I think I prefer that drive + shorter flight over short flight + longer flight – especially when saving money on top of that.

I agree. I occasionally use YHZ too. My most recent trips out of there were to London Heathrow (LHR) and Glasgow via Keflavik (KEF), and to Boston on Air Canada.

These decisions were all made to simplify my itinerary and to minimize connections. The European trips were excellent - no complaints whatsoever. The Boston trip however was another story. Between flight delays (fog), driving time between Moncton and Halifax, and the necessity of being in Halifax 2-3 hours before takeoff, I could have quite literally driven to Boston from Moncton more quickly!!!

This is unacceptable. Moncton (and other NB airports) need direct connections to the US northeast to prevent this sort of debacle and to stimulate business connections.

In the meantime, since most of my business is points west, I will continue to make connections in Montreal and Toronto. If I'm flying to Europe, Halifax is a good option. If I'm just going to Boston however, I think I'll drive........

[Sunnybrae]

I get the fact that everyone would like point to point flights with no stops. It would be great in a perfect world. The reality is we just don't have the numbers needed here in Moncton. Even if we did have a direct flight to the US, you would still have people complain that it isn't the right city. It should be Boston instead of Newark or it should be Philly instead of Detroit. Then you would have people complaining that the alliance should be One World instead of Skyteam. Heck, when we did have the Newark flight, you had people complain that it was a turboprop.

Personally, I think we have a great hub in Halifax that's close given the area of the world that we live. I have seen bigger cities with less point to point flying.

Its kinda funny in a way that I have more of a problem with the fact that its a ten minute drive from my subdivision to my work in an industrial park. Yet, if I wanted to take a bus, it would turn into an hour and fifteen minute fiasco. I would have to go downtown in the wrong direction to catch a bus to come back the same way. I guess the hub and spoke is popular in transportation.

[Nashe]

I think the last time I used the Halifax airport (driving from Moncton) was back about 4 years ago when I was headed to St. Maarten and my connector from Moncton to Toronto for the next AM got cancelled due to weather... Halifax was still up so the four of us jumped into the CR-V and drove 5 hours (blizzard) to Halifax to fly out the next morning. Got to TO the next AM, boarded flight, and during de-icing they found a dent in the tail. Inspection... back to terminal. Missed connection. Rebooked... got to Newark... missing some luggage. Finally got to St. Maarten a day late. What a trip!

In the past, we have done the whole "drive to Halifax, stay overnight, leave car in hotel long term" thing, but overall it doesn't save much money when you factor in the hotel ($140+), gas ($50) and time (5 hours of driving). We don't find it worth the hassle when your next stop is Toronto or Montreal anyway.

[JHikka]

It's almost as if NB doesn't have a single urban area large enough to maintain a large enough airport to provide enough variety in regional and international flights.

Places like Moncton and Fredericton are doing fairly well if we're comparing to a similar-sized CMA such as Kingston. I can't think of a single moment in my life where I heard someone talking about flying into or out of Kingston. Same goes for Trois-Rivieres, Guelph, Peterborough...their proximity to larger airports effectively kills their local airports relative to their Maritime peers of similar size.

Originally Posted by J81

Look at how well Mirabel worked out being placed north of Montreal.

The Mirabel example could give us a glimpse at how a prospective Sussex airport would have fared but there's no real way to know for sure. Mirabel was attempting to replace Dorval which is still an above-average, albeit confusing, airport. The biggest issue with Mirabel was its depressing location which, even today, is in the middle of nowhere. We could theorize that Sussex International would have driven tremendous growth in the Sussex area, would have increased the densification of the Saint John-Moncton corridor, and would have led to a more ideal alignment of the Trans-Canada through Sussex.

Business travelers typically want quick, easy, painless trips to/from airports to wherever it is they're doing business. Nobody wants to be let off at an airport in the middle of the woods. Some airports do this exceptionally well (Billy Bishop, Dorval), others less so (Stanfield to a lesser degree, Ottawa, Calgary).