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  #21  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
I don’t think he’s necessarily wrong. If you were given the ability to pick a passport of any country on earth, what would you pick? The US would be up there. The size of the country and much better climate are very attractive.. as are the job opportunities generally speaking.
It's absolutely true. Also kinda irrelevant, because Toronto doesn't have anything to do with national immigration policy, but true nonetheless. Toronto, without question, is growing due to Canadian immigration policy, and the Canadian numbers are largely a function of U.S. immigration policy, given it's generally the same pool of immigrants.
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  #22  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 1:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
It's absolutely true. Also kinda irrelevant, because Toronto doesn't have anything to do with national immigration policy, but true nonetheless. Toronto, without question, is growing due to Canadian immigration policy, and the Canadian numbers are largely a function of U.S. immigration policy, given it's generally the same pool of immigrants.
I don't see how you can say that when Canada allows way more refugees to come to Canada (who aren't technically immigrants but still migrants) and has a mostly merit-based system and Canada also has much less South and Central American immigrants.
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  #23  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 1:34 PM
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I don't see how you can say that when Canada allows way more refugees to come to Canada (who aren't technically immigrants but still migrants) and has a mostly merit-based system and Canada also has much less South and Central American immigrants.
What, specifically, is your disagreement?

Canada has 2-3 times the immigration rate as U.S., and unlike U.S., Canadian immigrants heavily congregate in one metro (which is, not coincidentally, the dominant English speaking metro and economic hegemon).

Canada is simply much more open to immigration, and Toronto is the primary beneficiary. Toronto's relative growth is a function of Canada's immigration policies.
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  #24  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 1:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
What, specifically, is your disagreement?

Canada has 2-3 times the immigration rate as U.S., and unlike U.S., Canadian immigrants heavily congregate in one metro (which is, not coincidentally, the dominant English speaking metro and economic hegemon).

Canada is simply much more open to immigration, and Toronto is the primary beneficiary. Toronto's relative growth is a function of Canada's immigration policies.
Well, there are few things that can be challenged in your post that he responded to.

First of all, Toronto does have a "say'' in Canada's immigration policies as Torontonians elect more Members of Parliament than any other city in the country (though of course a majority of MPs don't come from Toronto), and Parliament is where decisions on immigration are made for the entire country. Toronto also has several high-profile Ministers in the Cabinet, which is also an important decision-making body when it comes to immigration.

It's also not entirely true that Canada and the U.S. are competing for the same pool of immigrants. If you look at source countries, obviously you have huge countries like India and China that are so large they'll be near the top of anyone's list. After that there are some countries in common but there are also significant differences. As has been mentioned the U.S. gets way more immigrants from Central American and Latin America in general. Those countries show up for Canada but way, way down the list.

Canada proportionately gets way more immigrants from what I might call the "Wider Middle East", including North Africa. There is also the francophone element to Canada's immigration policy which has no parallel in the U.S. (Yes the U.S. gets francophone immigrants too but generally they don't occupy the higher rungs on the origin list.)
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  #25  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 2:44 PM
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On top of what Acajack listed, a significant number of applicants look at the political and social characteristics of the country they apply to.

Some people will like the more laissez-faire 'everyone for yourself' ultra competitive nature of the US while others want a more egalitarian 'leave no one behind' society like Canada where the culture is more communal. Some people like having religion present in government and every day life while other will find that a big negative. Some will see a militarily powerful country as a plus while others prefer a country seen as less domineering.

There are a myriad other issues like LGBTQ rights, guns, abortion, capital punishment, racism, strength of democracy, capital punishment, freedom of the press, crime, efficiency of government, social mobility, access to health care, political choice, etc. that people consider. Not all migrants care about all of these things but many do. What one prioritizes and favours determines where people want to go.

The idea that people who go to Canada are people who couldn't get into the US is inaccurate, not to mention arrogant, condescending, and narcissistic.
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  #26  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 3:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
I don’t think he’s necessarily wrong. If you were given the ability to pick a passport of any country on earth, what would you pick? The US would be up there.
That speaks more to old school Canadian attitudes about their country than anything else. What hit our family like a ton of bricks when we emigrated to Canada from the UK was how insecure many Canadian born were about their country. There's a deeply ingrained belief that Canada doesn't measure up. A lot of it's born from living in the shadow of a super power that's globally dominant in many areas. Some of it is that old human tendency to view the grass as greener on the other side of the fence.

That said, we found these self-deprecating attitudes surprising, frustrating, baffling, not to mention a little sad. Immigrants have a far higher opinion of this country than most Canadian born. The Canadian inferiority complex is slowly fading but it's still prevalent with lots of Canadians .... especially the older generations. Not everyone wants to be an American. I like the US and Americans but I want to be a Canadian.
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  #27  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 3:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
I don’t think he’s necessarily wrong. If you were given the ability to pick a passport of any country on earth, what would you pick? The US would be up there. The size of the country and much better climate are very attractive.. as are the job opportunities generally speaking.
.
I don't dispute the second part of your post but I think the passport issue is a different one altogether.

If I were to travel on a single passport around the world I'd pick the Canadian every single time as it's not stigmatized at all and you won't be targeted by anyone because of it. Canada has a very "vanilla" global reputation and as such very few people have any hostility towards Canada and Canadians.

Rightly or wrongly you can't say that about the U.S. and consequently those who carry its passports.

Living in the U.S. is a whole other story of course. Many of those people abroad who hate Americans and the U.S. (and would mistreat you based on your passport) would jump at the chance to move to the U.S. if they could.
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  #28  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 3:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Also, how many articles have we seen lamenting the supposed lack of multifamily in Toronto? Bizarre. They have tons of multifamily, and moreover, the multifamily is quite cheap compared to SFH, obviously suggesting that the problem isn't too little multifamily.
Toronto has a ton of multi-family, but the vast majority of the purpose-built rental is from pre-1990. The new condos that are sold as investment commodities aren't providing price relief to recent arrivals or established Canadians alike.

Any land with good transit connectivity is selling at a premium that makes condos the most logical development option. Expo City in Vaughan is located next to the new terminus of the University subway line. Cheapest unit in there is $500,000 and it's a solid 40 minute subway ride from Union Station.

We need to open up for development some of the secondary corridors where the economics on mid-rise, purpose-built rental actually make sense. Unfortunately, those areas are in a stranglehold by SFH owners who will fight such opportunities if they arise.
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  #29  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 3:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I don't dispute the second part of your post but I think the passport issue is a different one altogether.

If I were to travel on a single passport around the world I'd pick the Canadian every single time as it's not stigmatized at all and you won't be targeted by anyone because of it. Canada has a very "vanilla" global reputation and as such very few people have any hostility towards Canada and Canadians.

Rightly or wrongly you can't say that about the U.S. and consequently those who carry its passports.

Living in the U.S. is a whole other story of course. Many of those people abroad who hate Americans and the U.S. (and would mistreat you based on your passport) would jump at the chance to move tot the U.S. if they could.
Your passport isn't taped to your forehead as you travel around foreign countries, it's purely a method of entry. How does anyone know your Canadian and not American once you pass through customs?

Measuring passport strength is usually done by assessing the number countries that can be entered without a visa. The most developed Asian countries rank at the top of the list (Japan, Korea, Singapore), and the U.S. is still above Canada.
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  #30  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 3:19 PM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
That speaks more to old school Canadian attitudes about their country than anything else. What hit our family like a ton of bricks when we emigrated to Canada from the UK was how insecure many Canadian born were about their country. There's a deeply ingrained belief that Canada doesn't measure up. A lot of it's born from living in the shadow of a super power that's globally dominant in many areas. Some of it is that old human tendency to view the grass as greener on the other side of the fence.

That said, we found these self-deprecating attitudes surprising, frustrating, baffling, not to mention a little sad. Immigrants have a far higher opinion of this country than most Canadian born. The Canadian inferiority complex is slowly fading but it's still prevalent with lots of Canadians .... especially the older generations. Not everyone wants to be an American. I like the US and Americans but I want to be a Canadian.
Like most Canadians who live in the larger cities I know lots of immigrants personally and their immigration paths vary widely.

There are those (1) who have a negative view of the U.S. (both society and its place in the world) and who never even considered immigrating there. Quite a few of them will wait quite some time after landing in Canada before visiting the U.S. - especially if they don't have relatives down there. Citing the fact that they "want no part of it". A friend of mine was like that and lived here for 25 years before setting foot in the U.S. A few years ago he took his family down to NYC during the summer (partly at my urging) and they all loved it. He said "you know, Americans aren't so bad!".

There is another subset (2) who applied to Canada, the U.S., Australia, etc., and Canada simply said "yes" first. Of these most put down roots in Canada, and learn to like it. Fairly quickly they no longer yearn for the U.S. as they've built a whole life in Canada (including kids) and the differences in outcomes generally aren't really that great in any event.

And then you a have another group (3) which is probably the smallest of the three, who couldn't get into the U.S. and are trying to use Canada as a stepping stone to get into that country. Some of them succeed, some of them don't and get frustrated and bitter, and some of them eventually end up in group (2) above.
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  #31  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 3:26 PM
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^^ Good post. I'm in 100% agreement. My Dad was definitely in that 1st group; he grew up in Southeast Asia during the Vietnam War. Going to the US was a non-starter. When we visited the US for the first time (US border town) he didn't want to go. He sat on a bench and petted some dog for 4 hours while we walked around. That dog was the only American he talked to. He's mellowed out a lot over time but that 1 brief visit was enough for him. My Mum didn't have negative views of the US but had always dreamt of living in Canada. Like us, she likes the US but lots of things down there rub her the wrong way. She's one of those 'Canada is the US without the problems (but nicer weather)' people.

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Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal View Post
They forgot Montréal on the ''Population growth by city'' list, because Montréal was +37k in 2017-2018. Toronto and Montréal 1st and 2nd.

Montréal (City)

2011 : 1,674,853
2017 : 1,745,802
2018 : 1,782,844 (+37k)

Montréal (Island)

2011 : 1,913,451
2017 : 1,987,773
2018 : 2,029,379 (+41k)
I thought it odd that they included Montreal in the 'Metro' table but not the 'City' table. As far as the point of the article goes, Montreal should look at Toronto (and Vancouver) as the canary in the coal mine. Montreal real estate is still relatively cheap but it won't stay affordable if the population grows at this clip over a decade or 2. Cities like Toronto, San Francisco, London, Melbourne, and Vancouver are a victim of their own success. They're in such high demand that real estate prices have gone through the roof. No city I'm aware of has managed to avoid it.

I'm not sure what the solution is but if there is one cities like Montreal need to take notice. It's better to plan ahead and mitigate against it before things become unaffordable. Btw, what source did you use? I found one that listed City of Montreal population growth at 28,500 but all they had done was use 2016-2017 growth to represent 2017-2018 growth.
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  #32  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 3:30 PM
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Originally Posted by suburbanite View Post
Your passport isn't taped to your forehead as you travel around foreign countries, it's purely a method of entry. How does anyone know your Canadian and not American once you pass through customs?

Measuring passport strength is usually done by assessing the number countries that can be entered without a visa. The most developed Asian countries rank at the top of the list (Japan, Korea, Singapore), and the U.S. is still above Canada.
Well, the difference between the Canadian and U.S. passports in visa-free access is exactly *1* country. Not sure which one it is but I'd hardly call that a significant difference.

I am not saying it's bad to travel on an American passport, but terrorists have been known to target passengers on cruise ships and airplanes based on passports (Israel, USA, etc.). Slim chance, I know, but if we're having the discussion.

Also, in more than a few countries you need to leave your passport at the hotel reception or present it under other circumstances as well while travelling.

But again, I don't think it's bad travelling on a U.S. passport.
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  #33  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 3:56 PM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
On top of what Acajack listed, a significant number of applicants look at the political and social characteristics of the country they apply to.

Some people will like the more laissez-faire 'everyone for yourself' ultra competitive nature of the US while others want a more egalitarian 'leave no one behind' society like Canada where the culture is more communal. Some people like having religion present in government and every day life while other will find that a big negative. Some will see a militarily powerful country as a plus while others prefer a country seen as less domineering.

There are a myriad other issues like LGBTQ rights, guns, abortion, capital punishment, racism, strength of democracy, capital punishment, freedom of the press, crime, efficiency of government, social mobility, access to health care, political choice, etc. that people consider. Not all migrants care about all of these things but many do. What one prioritizes and favours determines where people want to go.

The idea that people who go to Canada are people who couldn't get into the US is inaccurate, not to mention arrogant, condescending, and narcissistic.
100 years ago, Canada was the much smaller weaker brother of the U.S. The countries had very similar policies and access to the U.S. was much easier than today. The main difference between the two was that Canada was part of the British Empire. Because of the countries similarities, which included the countries from which most people immigrated, the U.S. was seen as much more attractive and the preferred choice.

This began to changed in the 60s, and most evident during the Nixon/Trudeau years when national policies affecting many things including social policy and immigration began to diverge.

Canada's perception internationally also began to change, which gradually made Canada more attractive to immigrants. Canada developed its own independent reputation, and no longer just the U.S.'s little brother. At that point, Canada became less of an afterthought as an immigrant destination.
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  #34  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 4:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Like most Canadians who live in the larger cities I know lots of immigrants personally and their immigration paths vary widely.

There are those (1) who have a negative view of the U.S. (both society and its place in the world) and who never even considered immigrating there. Quite a few of them will wait quite some time after landing in Canada before visiting the U.S. - especially if they don't have relatives down there. Citing the fact that they "want no part of it". A friend of mine was like that and lived here for 25 years before setting foot in the U.S. A few years ago he took his family down to NYC during the summer (partly at my urging) and they all loved it. He said "you know, Americans aren't so bad!".

There is another subset (2) who applied to Canada, the U.S., Australia, etc., and Canada simply said "yes" first. Of these most put down roots in Canada, and learn to like it. Fairly quickly they no longer yearn for the U.S. as they've built a whole life in Canada (including kids) and the differences in outcomes generally aren't really that great in any event.

And then you a have another group (3) which is probably the smallest of the three, who couldn't get into the U.S. and are trying to use Canada as a stepping stone to get into that country. Some of them succeed, some of them don't and get frustrated and bitter, and some of them eventually end up in group (2) above.
This all sounds reasonable, but the recent bump in Canadian immigration is purely driven by the current U.S. presidential administration's anti-immigrant mood. Many large U.S. companies have stopped sponsoring new H1b visas because of the uncertainty in the process now.

For example, over the last couple of years, the Trump administration has been challenging the credentials of the holders of many of the H1b visas that it awarded. Last year the administration challenged over 60% of the visas it awarded, up from 20% pre-Trump. It is extremely disruptive when the government does this because the workers are usually already in their jobs and have to go on leave during the process. Many companies are just declining to hire people who need to apply for H1bs.
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  #35  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 4:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
We currently have 330 million people. Why would we want to have high population growth at this stage in our development? Do we actually want 500 million people here? 1 billion?

We have steady population growth along with a higher GDP than most other developed nations.
Yes. Someone will need to pay for your retirement.
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  #36  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 4:14 PM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
That speaks more to old school Canadian attitudes about their country than anything else. What hit our family like a ton of bricks when we emigrated to Canada from the UK was how insecure many Canadian born were about their country. There's a deeply ingrained belief that Canada doesn't measure up. A lot of it's born from living in the shadow of a super power that's globally dominant in many areas. Some of it is that old human tendency to view the grass as greener on the other side of the fence.

That said, we found these self-deprecating attitudes surprising, frustrating, baffling, not to mention a little sad. Immigrants have a far higher opinion of this country than most Canadian born. The Canadian inferiority complex is slowly fading but it's still prevalent with lots of Canadians .... especially the older generations. Not everyone wants to be an American. I like the US and Americans but I want to be a Canadian.
When I was growing up, Canadians had much more of an inferiority complex towards Americans than they do today. We were ingrained with the thought that although we had a very similar population makeup and culture, that the Americans were wealthier, and had a more dynamic economy that delivered the nice and new things to Americans much sooner. In the days of Kennedy, Canadians saw a dynamic world leader that they admired.

I remember how this began to change. It was the race riots of 1967. This pointed out that their were problems in American society and many Canadians did not fully understand how this simmered to the boiling point. I certainly did not understand this fundamental difference between the two countries.

As the two countries policies diverged and with the great celebration of Canada's centennial, also in 1967, Canada started developing a new pride in itself. This was re-enforced as Canada developed a different world view and adopted internal policies that were different from the USA.

So today after 50 years, some elements of the inferiority complex still exist probably tracing to the older generations, but I also see this now mixed with a superiority complex, where many Canadians see their country being better run and with better policies than the USA. Many Canadians now look down their noses at what they see as silly resistance to adopt better health care, and gun policies, to name just a couple. Of course, our politeness generally masks this superiority complex so it is generally not presented in an offensive way to Americans.

Nevertheless, both Canadians and Americans on an individual basis enjoy each other very much.
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  #37  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 5:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Like most Canadians who live in the larger cities I know lots of immigrants personally and their immigration paths vary widely.

There are those (1) who have a negative view of the U.S. (both society and its place in the world) and who never even considered immigrating there. Quite a few of them will wait quite some time after landing in Canada before visiting the U.S. - especially if they don't have relatives down there. Citing the fact that they "want no part of it". A friend of mine was like that and lived here for 25 years before setting foot in the U.S. A few years ago he took his family down to NYC during the summer (partly at my urging) and they all loved it. He said "you know, Americans aren't so bad!".

There is another subset (2) who applied to Canada, the U.S., Australia, etc., and Canada simply said "yes" first. Of these most put down roots in Canada, and learn to like it. Fairly quickly they no longer yearn for the U.S. as they've built a whole life in Canada (including kids) and the differences in outcomes generally aren't really that great in any event.

And then you a have another group (3) which is probably the smallest of the three, who couldn't get into the U.S. and are trying to use Canada as a stepping stone to get into that country. Some of them succeed, some of them don't and get frustrated and bitter, and some of them eventually end up in group (2) above.
I have a lot of family that emigrated from the UK around the turn of the century; my grandfather, his siblings, cousins, parents, etc and while some including my grandfather and his family wound up in Upstate NY, most of the clan moved to Vancouver with some in the Toronto area and seemed to be very content there considering new York state was an economic powerhouse at the time.
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  #38  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 6:27 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Yes. Someone will need to pay for your retirement.
Seriously, this answer should be obvious. It boggles my mind that people would view population growth as a negative. Don't you want future generations of Americans to enjoy a vibrant, growing economy? The US is enormous and barely populated at all so to suggest it's full is pure silliness.

Yes, the US will need population growth if it is to remain a world leader. This is obvious from an economic growth perspective and to meet our long term entitlement liabilities. Furthermore a good portion of our cities are still reeling from the damaging depopulation effects of the mid 20th century. Cities that are growing just tend to be nicer, healthier places to live. So yes, the US should want this.
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  #39  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 6:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Buckman821 View Post
Seriously, this answer should be obvious. It boggles my mind that people would view population growth as a negative. Don't you want future generations of Americans to enjoy a vibrant, growing economy? The US is enormous and barely populated at all so to suggest it's full is pure silliness.

Yes, the US will need population growth if it is to remain a world leader. This is obvious from an economic growth perspective and to meet our long term entitlement liabilities. Furthermore a good portion of our cities are still reeling from the damaging depopulation effects of the mid 20th century. Cities that are growing just tend to be nicer, healthier places to live. So yes, the US should want this.
I agree. I’d happily take a good share of those Canadian immigrants. It doesn’t sound like Canadians are taking issue with immigration for the most part. It’ll be interesting to see how well they assimilate. For whatever reason I feel immigrants are slower to assimilate in the US these days.
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  #40  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 6:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
We currently have 330 million people. Why would we want to have high population growth at this stage in our development? Do we actually want 500 million people here? 1 billion?

We have steady population growth along with a higher GDP than most other developed nations.
I fully expect for the USA to hit 500 million in coming decades. There is a ton of space in the USA still.

If China and India can have 1 billion + the USA could easily fit far more.
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