HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Texas & Southcentral > San Antonio

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #21  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2013, 1:06 AM
sirkingwilliam's Avatar
sirkingwilliam sirkingwilliam is offline
Loving SA 365 days a year
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 3,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by miaht82 View Post
You obviously didn't read everything I read because when I mention the Can Plant apartments, I mentioned the buildings around it, which means that I am definitely suggesting that it be mixed-use.

Why shouldn't it be a destination point? It already is. People go to Planet K, Taco Cabana, Jack in the Box, Good Time Charlies, etc., why should that be all that people are limited too? Every place should be maximized to its fullest potential so that the when the next developments come along on Broadway, the foot traffic would already be there and we wouldn't be looking at sprawl in the city. I'm not suggesting it have a "big-box" or major office tenant, but there's nothing wrong with having a better designed building and space for a couple of small shops to set up if need be.

I don't think that better urban design will draw people to buildings, I just know that better urban design draws people.



I have high expectations for EVERY area. The Pearl is set back further from Broadway and it has a highway between it and Broadway; should we just have plopped down suburban style buildings and left it at that? What about Big Tex? It dead-ends completely and is set back further from any street. Should those plans just be scrapped? Tendick runs over from Brackenridge to Eleanor, all hope is not lost when you reach these apartments.

The fact that it is next to an Army post should not set our bar of expectations any lower.
Comparing the pearl and big tex to this apartment complex is Apples and oranges. The infrastructure at those reuses allows for those type of developments.

The most damning thing for that location is the dead end streets. If those roads led to New Braunfels Ave. Then I think this is has a different design and has a mix use component but that's not the case here. Both roads dead end because of FSH. That kills any and all traffic flow.

Btw, I don't see what Jack in the Box and TC have to do with your argument, at all. Using them makes no sense.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #22  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2013, 1:25 AM
Spoiler's Avatar
Spoiler Spoiler is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by miaht82 View Post
You obviously didn't read everything I read because when I mention the Can Plant apartments, I mentioned the buildings around it, which means that I am definitely suggesting that it be mixed-use.
Forgive me for not gleaning your meaning from what you wrote.

Quote:
I have high expectations for EVERY area.
That's cool. You must enjoy disappointment.

Quote:
The Pearl is set back further from Broadway and it has a highway between it and Broadway; should we just have plopped down suburban style buildings and left it at that? What about Big Tex?
The two developments you mention are on the banks of the river. It is not a valid comparison.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #23  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2013, 3:35 AM
miaht82's Avatar
miaht82 miaht82 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: The Triangle
Posts: 1,316
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirkingwilliam View Post
Btw, I don't see what Jack in the Box and TC have to do with your argument, at all. Using them makes no sense.
My point of mentioning that was to say that people go to these places all the time, it is a "destination" for people hundreds of times a day; why is it such a stretch to think that people can't wander 200 ft. to a small sandwich or ice cream shop down the street?

All I was thinking and envisioning was that since Humphreys was already going to be closed off, it could act as a pedestrian walkway towards Oaktree, with two buildings sitting on each side with some retail, just a couple of small spaces, leading towards a main building where Mulberry Village sits/sat (Idk if its still there, don't live there anymore). If you ask for more than an FAR of 1 and get some more units, all of a sudden, the area has some life to it. Nothing extremely special; like WorldTexas said, it doesn't have to be Pearl, but it is a "place".

I also didn't say that anything had to face the fenceline of Ft. Sam, and a dead end has nothing to do with anything if your destination is before the dead end. Technically, mostly every shopping center in the burbs is a dead end since they don't connect to the neighborhoods directly behind them. The key is to go out the same way you came in.
__________________
The Raleigh Connoisseur
It is the city trying to escape the consequences of being a city
while still remaining a city. It is urban society trying to eat its
cake and keep it, too.
- Harlan Douglass, The Suburban Trend, 1925
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #24  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2013, 4:02 AM
miaht82's Avatar
miaht82 miaht82 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: The Triangle
Posts: 1,316
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoiler View Post
Forgive me for not gleaning your meaning from what you wrote.
You're forgiven this time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoiler View Post
That's cool. You must enjoy disappointment.
I don't actually, but it seems that you get a kick out of seeing others disappointed, and thats kind of sad. I had such high expectations for you, for your own sake.
And also judging by other reactions here, it seems that others have higher expectations of the built environment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoiler View Post
The two developments you mention are on the banks of the river. It is not a valid comparison.
Again you are not reading what I wrote, but I'll let it slide. The argument was made that because of the dead ends, people couldn't drive through/around the Mulberry/Brackenridge area. I said that you couldn't drive through/around these other two locations either. Unless you have a floating car you would have to go out the same way you came into Big Tex, or go out the sides and back to Broadway, making a dead end argument baseless. The river creates a dead end scenario at both of these developments. And besides La Gloria which is kind of on the river, the rest of the mixed use portions of the Pearl that I'm referring to sit on Pearl Pkwy coming in from Broadway or at least facing Broadway, making the river a "nice to have" but not a necessary to have to get people in and out of Pearl.

I have to mention that the design of Pearl has pretty decent urban elements in it and it's funny how people go there, sometimes just to hang out, kind of like moths to a flame.
__________________
The Raleigh Connoisseur
It is the city trying to escape the consequences of being a city
while still remaining a city. It is urban society trying to eat its
cake and keep it, too.
- Harlan Douglass, The Suburban Trend, 1925
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #25  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2013, 4:10 AM
cole world11 cole world11 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SAT
Posts: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirkingwilliam View Post
I have to disagree.
Agree to disagree
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2013, 6:11 AM
Spoiler's Avatar
Spoiler Spoiler is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by miaht82 View Post

I don't actually, but it seems that you get a kick out of seeing others disappointed, and thats kind of sad. I had such high expectations for you, for your own sake.
I have less of a problem with your pie-in-the-sky hyperidealism (considering the reality that urban development is driven by market forces rather than what meets a subjective ideal) than I do with the aggressively patronizing tone of your posts. You can take your expectations and stick them in your ear.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #27  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2013, 6:11 AM
kornbread kornbread is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 807
There certainly is no reason why this has to be done one way. Does the site present challenges? Yeah, sure. A fence and dead ends are not them. People are developing along barriers all of the time. The bigger challenge is probably the neighboring lots and what else could become of them (if anything). Is this considered part of "midtown"? I believe there is some work going on for them to define what they want this area to be.

The properties in this little pocket seem like a prime opportunity to develop nice residential; even a destination. A destination for living that can eventually draw businesses that can eventually draw customers that don't live in the neighborhood. Maybe visitors from Breckenridge park, or the children's museum are hungry or thirsty. Maybe a bakery or ice cream shop or noodle or coffee house starts out small and gets a reputation. It's not out of the question to think someone will go 2 blocks to check it out.

That said, Embry's projects have a good reputation and it's difficult to tell from one rendering what the site will really offer. But my first impressions were that it looks like something near 1604.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #28  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2013, 3:30 PM
WorldTexas WorldTexas is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by kornbread View Post
There certainly is no reason why this has to be done one way.
Kornbread, you just said everything I wanted to in a much more eloquent way than the long rant I was preparing to respond to some of the posts. Thanks!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoiler View Post
That's cool. You must enjoy disappointment.
Spoiler, you must enjoy mediocrity. Aiming for the middle means you land lower on the pole. Aim higher to end up higher. High expectations lead to innovation, beauty, and end results that raise the bar. San Antonio is a city that likes to say, "this is all we can get so let's just take it" and it is one of the most frustrating things I've dealt with since coming home. I'm proud to have the highest expectations for the city, for myself, and for those around me.


Now, I'll admit that I've only seen one elevation so I'm still not 100% sure how this thing is going to shape up or interact with its environment. My thoughts are based on the single shot and the final product could be much more engaging that what I see in my head. That said,

Quote:
Originally Posted by sirkingwilliam View Post
Across the street from this thing is a security fence for FSH.
I'm not saying that they should have built a 50 story building that towers over the fort or that its wall should sit right on the fence or anything else that threatens our relationship with the post. There are ways to design for a natural or artificial barrier that are respectful but provide for foot/bike traffic. The front of the building could have been oriented to Brackenridge Ave with a toned down and respectful facade or Embrey could have designed 3 sides to be oriented to the streets and the rear/loading/mechanical to face the Fort. Look at the Vistana for an idea of what I mean (obviously not the size, just the layout).


Quote:
Originally Posted by sirkingwilliam View Post
I just don't know what kind of development you guys were expecting that would be fiesable.
I wasn't picturing anything radical. This is a four story development. The 1800, Can Plant, and Cevallos are four floors. This isn't a height issue. My displeasure is with what I imagine the site plan to be based on the rendering. This thing looks like the Meridian (another Embrey product) which is fine in a more suburban context.

I'm not saying this needed to be built with a streetscape designed for a Parisian boulevard, but I believe this area has the potential to be a much denser environment as envisioned in the Midtown Master Plan - http://www.sanantonio.gov/planning/n...MasterPlan.pdf.

This site and those around it have so much potential to be street oriented buildings which promote walking, cycling, and community building. That can happen in a neighborhood of four story buildings. If the rents are already $1.45 per sf and Pearl is pushing $2 then there is money to made here in the medium term. This area will be redeveloped and those 6 complexes around this site will be gone someday. I would like for it to be a connected neighborhood, not one behind gates and walls.

Cevallos is in a very similar situation with low income properties around it and a railroad acting as a barrier. NRP built it anyway. The beauty is its first floor units on Cevallos St. open up right onto the street like a brown stone. I don't think that's too radical to wish for.

Last edited by WorldTexas; Mar 20, 2013 at 4:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #29  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2013, 5:29 PM
Spoiler's Avatar
Spoiler Spoiler is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by WorldTexas View Post
Spoiler, you must enjoy mediocrity.
I don't enjoy it, I just expect it.This development is absolutely mediocre, but it's still an improvement over what was there before, and will not negatively affect the future development along Broadway, for which my expectations are much higher than mediocre. So I say "meh", rather than gnashing my teeth and rending my garments.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #30  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2013, 6:36 PM
WorldTexas WorldTexas is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoiler View Post
rather than gnashing my teeth and rending my garments.
Admittedly, I do that a lot. It's part of my charm.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #31  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2013, 6:41 PM
audiomuse's Avatar
audiomuse audiomuse is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 124
It looks like something that would fit up at the Rim and La Cantera area.

Looks like it will cater completely to cars as evidenced by the cars in the rendering. At least it's infill..
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #32  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2013, 7:50 PM
sirkingwilliam's Avatar
sirkingwilliam sirkingwilliam is offline
Loving SA 365 days a year
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 3,687
I think my position has been misunderstood. I think the design could have been worlds better, though one rendering isn't really enough to judge it completely. My point was the dead ends because of FSH are why it's not some Can Plant type mixed use.

Who knows, maybe Embrey will feel the negative feedback and redesign it.

Another thing we haven't taken into consideration, if this is in Mahncke Park then you can bet that neighbor had input into the design.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #33  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2013, 8:09 PM
miaht82's Avatar
miaht82 miaht82 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: The Triangle
Posts: 1,316
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoiler View Post
I have less of a problem with your pie-in-the-sky hyperidealism (considering the reality that urban development is driven by market forces rather than what meets a subjective ideal) than I do with the aggressively patronizing tone of your posts. You can take your expectations and stick them in your ear.
Sorry for hurting your feelings. Obviously its a crime to believe differently than an anonymous person on a forum, and considering that 2 of your 3 responses were of little to no substance, I responded as I saw fit. Take it how you want. Don't bother responding, I can't hear anything anymore.
__________________
The Raleigh Connoisseur
It is the city trying to escape the consequences of being a city
while still remaining a city. It is urban society trying to eat its
cake and keep it, too.
- Harlan Douglass, The Suburban Trend, 1925
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #34  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2013, 2:29 PM
kornbread kornbread is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 807
Have you had a chance to look over the MidTown Master Plan that WorldTexas linked to? It's a pretty interesting read.

If you look at page 38 (Urban Neighborhood), that summarizes the vision for the area that we have been discussing in this thread.

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #35  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2013, 3:10 PM
sakyle04's Avatar
sakyle04 sakyle04 is offline
COGSADCAJA, VP and CGO
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: 78201
Posts: 1,369
Quote:
Originally Posted by miaht82 View Post
I guess it would be "buildings" in the way that 1221 is technically 15 or so buildings. The 10 garage spaces (if thats all they are going to have) is for garage parking in separate buildings, as in the shed like structures along fencelines at the edge of parking lots. I'm assuming everyone else will park in a parking lot if there are no "built-in" garages to the first floor of some of the buildings.

I also underestimated the damage; the article also says that Mulberry Village was demo'd too. That's a huge swath of land for ONLY 282 units.

Its a shame; this really lowers expectations for the rest of Broadway heading north, this area had huge potential and it is nothing but a major disappointment from Broadway all the way back to Tendick St. It pretty much guarantees that nobody will venture off of Broadway, creating a residential island. And before everyone jumps on me, yes, I do think that it is better than what was previously there, but that shouldn't be a reason for us to settle for bad design and more of the same. It doesn't have to be a high-rise, but even if you plop something similar to the Can Plant building with the surrounding ones as well to the existing streets, you would create a mini-destination point for those that are already going to be in the area for the Children's Museum or Kiddie Park. Heck, it might even make the Brackenridge Eagle add an extra stop near Mulberry.

This is one of the downfalls of the city offering money to developers; you lose the potential for an area to the cheapest and quickest short-term gain. I'd rather have this area organically become something great in 5-10 years when it is viable than to have something there for the sake of it just to add a few more residents. Oh well.
This +1000.

Density is less than it could be, even at that same height (which is leaving money on the table for a developer - lazy). The street interaction based on one rendering (admittedly) is suburban - lazy/cheap. Obviously, it is easier to plunk down a basic facsimile of a suburban complex you've already built.

A good reminder for those of us in the "idealized" world: There are visionaries who happen to be developers. They see potential, build to it, and make change. Then there are these types of developments that remind us that the market is still driving things and that, absent a visionary, the lowest common denominator often triumphs.
__________________
PAVE PARADISE, PUT UP A (HIGH-RISE ON A) PARKING LOT...
Kyle on Twitter
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #36  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2013, 9:33 PM
WorldTexas WorldTexas is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 225
This one is definitely going to have a much more suburban feel to it, but I'm still interested to see how it comes together


Looking along Brackenridge toward Broadway:






Reply With Quote
     
     
End
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Texas & Southcentral > San Antonio
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 1:02 PM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.