Official SSP Denver Transit Plan - Comment on final routes now

[Interzen]

Cirrus,

Do we have traffic pattern studies we can base this planning on? It seems like we are shooting in the dark guessing where most trips will start and end. I think I am assuming more trips that do not require entering the CBD than you, and more transit riders traveling right past the city core on Colfax. As I said before if we can't reach federal then it's probobly a mute point anyway because it only avoids transfers for Auraria.

On the subject of transfers, I think you are suggesting having southbound trains in the spine labelled East-Colfax or Cherry-Creek so one could pick the train heading in their direction, splitting off at CCS.

Your two concerns regarding a through Colfax line at CCS are decreased frequency on the spine (just the CC line continuing on to DUS), and the extra transfer for the passengers traveling between the DUS, or the east side of the CBD, and Colfax.

I'm curious how many riders would be inconvenienced by a Colfax/spine transfer.

Please bear with me as I'm still at the stream of consciousness stage, not being part of the previous exercise that produced our starting map. I'm sure these things were discussed before, I'm just not privy, and need to come up to speed.

[Cirrus]

Nono, this is exactly what we should be talking about. This is good. Keep it up. I expected that changes would be necessary; I just want to talk them through first.

do we have traffic pattern studies we can base this planning on?

Nope. That'll have to come later. Any of these lines will have to go through an individual city-led study process that would consider that, like what they're doing on Colfax now. We don't have the resources here.

Perhaps we just have to accept that and be clear this is a first-step vision, not a final answer.

I think I am assuming more trips that do not require entering the CBD than you, and more transit riders traveling right past the city core on Colfax. As I said before if we can't reach federal than it's probobly a mute point anyway because it only avoids transfers for Auraria.

I see three issues:

1. Providing a transfer for W-line riders at Decatur-Federal who want to go to uptown instead of DUS.
2. Providing a transfer to the SW&SE LRT lines at either Auraria East LRT stop, or on California / Stout.
3. Getting people into Auraria, when that's their final destination, with the minimum number of necessary transfers.

Unless there are more people on the Colfax line going to Auraria specifically than into downtown (including people transferring at DUS!), it seems to me that a BRT line from downtown to Decatur, with stops at Auraria, as I proposed HERE, would best accomplish all those goals without making life worse for the non-Auraria-bound riders. What's the weakness of the BRT line? People keep arguing that we need this connection. OK. But nobody has told me why the proposed BRT connection isn't good enough. I'm sold on the need to connect to Auraria somehow, but I'm not yet sold on why that connection has to be made using the Colfax streetcar, specifically.

I think you are suggesting having southbound trains in the spine labelled East-Colfax or Cherry-Creek so one could pick the train heading in their direction, splitting off at CCS.

Yes. The Cherry Creek & Colfax lines would join at Civic Center and run together through downtown. Exactly like how the W-line and C-line light rail meet at Auraria West and proceed together to Union Station.

[Cirrus]

Since I haven't posted the complete map w/ the Decatur/Auraria bus connection, here it is:




The big questions right now are:

1. What's the best way to serve Auraria? Bus line or reroute the Colfax streetcar, or something else?
2. Do we need a Highlands line, and if so is this the correct one?

[Interzen]

Could we add the RTD rail lines, maybe in grey, so it's easier to visualize the wider network?

The kink at Colfax still bothers me esthetically but I understand this is a utility not an art project.

What is your reasoning behind running the Decatur Bus line to 18th rather than CCS? Are you assuming most east bound riders will want to head north on 15th and 16th or are you trying to reduce complexity at Broadway and Colfax?

[bobg]

I am fine with a bus on W Colfax in the near term. I think the wider objections have to do with a disconnect between west and east Denver. Personally I would like a LRT branch of the west line to Civic Center, but that isn't necessarily a Denver only transit improvement so I am not sure that is part of this discussion -plus the logistical hurdles are huge-.

As far as 15th/17th vs 16th I am not against 16th per se, but in my mind the local buses on 15th/17th serve a different purpose then the 16th street mall. The local buses connect neighborhoods with downtown while the 16th st mall serves as a circulator within downtown between the two transit hubs. There's going to be a lot of tension between those purposes when you combine them into one line (stops, freqencies, etc.).

[Interzen]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Unless there are more people on the Colfax line going to Auraria specifically than into downtown (including people transferring at DUS!)

That's the million dollar question.

Other than airport traffic I don't foresee that many trips between the northern Fastracks lines/bus routes and east Colfax(or South Broadway for that matter). Those riders will be mostly commuters working, shopping and recreating downtown. I don't think people living north of, and mostly outside, the city will be running errands on the south and east sides. There is lots of employment along both corridors but I'm not sure that many commute there from north of the CBD.

I envisioned DUS as a northern hub serving mostly long distance commuters and CCS as a hub for cross town traffic closer to the geographic center of the greater city.

Either way your BRT line to Decatur will likely come out the most viable alternative.


If I was designing the system in a vacuum I would first build a Colfax line from Aurora all the way to the St Anthony's redevelopment south of Sloans. Maybe even along 17th from there to Sheridan (King soopers/Target shopping center). I know this overlaps the west line a bit but I'm thinking about access to what should be a burgeoning retail corridor with the current and planned developments and improvements along west Colfax.

I would build the Cherry Creek line next, likely as proposed but initially terminating at CCS. I think this takes president over Broadway due to the excellent bus service currently serving Broadway, the parallel light rail, and the increased development in Cherry Creek.

Then I would build the Broadway line as drawn.

During these construction periods I would be monitoring traffic on the RTD free rides to determine how the central spine capacity requirements are evolving. At this point we should have the ability to get people to the core and around the greater city. If the only thing lacking then is a strong connection through the core, and we had solid demand figures, it should be easier to push for a long term (read more expensive or politically difficult) solution. Maybe a two way dedicated transit and bikeway on 18th and a short section of cut and cover under Broadway to get into CCS if the utilities down there can be reworked.

This is the point where transfers or through lines into the CBD would come into play in my simplistic, staged approach. Obviously this approach does not comply with your intent to provide a complete plan from the start.

I keep waiting for Bunt to come in here and point out what I'm overlooking, besides budgetary considerations.

[Interzen]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Replace or supplement. Either way, the MetroRide is not a good long term solution. It'll be slow and it'll have serious limits.

I'm curious to see just how slow it turns out to be and how well it will fill the gap until something better can be built. We should have an idea in the spring since the initial hours will be during the heaviest loads.

What are your main concerns regarding the MetroRide? Is it the mixed traffic, stop frequency, vehicle capacity, or something else?

We can even make it wireless for some added cost. Streetcars can do about a mile wire-free these days, which I assume would be politically necessary on the mall, and it isn't that much extra. Longer than a mile is hard and begins to get really expensive, but for the distances we're talking about, I think it's practical.

By the time this comes on line the wireless range will probobly be plenty but I wonder about maximum speeds in such a heavy Ped corridor. Would a street car be any quicker than the shuttle or just up the capacity? If it isn't any faster than the shuttle I don't see how the MetroRide kludge could be even slower.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Since I haven't posted the complete map w/ the Decatur/Auraria bus connection, here it is:




The big questions right now are:

1. What's the best way to serve Auraria? Bus line or reroute the Colfax streetcar, or something else?
2. Do we need a Highlands line, and if so is this the correct one?

I like much of your workup. However, I do have a few caveats.

IMO, the Colorado Blvd and Colfax Lines are the keys to your scheme, and, there in lie the fundamental problems with your design.

You have two design pieces- one that lies within a 3 or 4 mile radius of the DUS Civic Station spine, and, the other outside of this. The inner grouping consists of three well thought out loops- the Federal/near 20th/Colfax loop, the Broadway, 6th Avenue, Colorado Blvd loop, and the Downing, Walnut/Blake, 17th Street loops, and, one that is less practical- let's call that the Denver Country Club loop.

Loops are excellent when the relationship between average speed traveling the loop (or the sum of time traveling each leg of the loop) and the distance of the loop, is below a certain value. In addition, loops work best when they bypassed the urban center, i.e., the loops connect arms or spokes, which greatly enhances user efficiency. Quite simply, the user can travel to a larger part of a local area without switching downtown.

On your design you have two powerful switch points on your loops. These are at DUS and Civic station.

We are, however, looking at all of the city of Denver, and, your design does adequately cover Denver east of Colorado Blvd. For example, someone living any where west of Colorado Blvd, east of Federal, south of I-70, and north of I-25 would have steel rail transportation with 2 to 2.5 miles.

This keys in, too, with time required to travel. For example- the Colfax line (whatever mode) would be very fast, perhaps 10 minutes or less from the Federal Street light rail station to Civic Station. This T line makes a Federal Street car line practical from Alameda north (10 - 15 minutes). This is an excellent loop (including transferring to shuttle or whatever is serving the spine, and would eliminate the W line to Central Spine design flaw.

Loop number 2 is the Civic Station via Broadway to Broadway Station, and, back via Central Corridor light rail loop, with (the likely) split up of north and southbound routing between Broadway and Lincoln.

Loop number 3 is the eventual loop made by returning the Downing extension to DUS via Blake.

Finally there is the Denver Country Club loop. Of all your loops, this serves the least commercial, most high end, residential demographic. This area, while outwardly 'liberal' is intensely protective of any kind of intrusion, and, also is rather low density. I would eliminate the 6th/8th Avenue part of the loop.

I think most of us would agree Colfax and Colorado absolutely need higher speed public transportation. I also suspect that most feel that such a system should pass (or under) near (or through) Civic Center Station further west to the Federal Light Rail Station. Likewise, I believe that the city of Aurora should be invited into extending the system to the I-225 station at Colfax.

The Colorado Blvd system would, as you illustrate, extend from the DIA line to the Colorado Station.

The key for your design system to work, of course, is the average speed of the Colorado Blvd and Colfax lines. I would suggest 15 to 20 mph. Herein lies the critical part of your entire design.

More thoughts later.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Interzen

Could we add the RTD rail lines, maybe in grey, so it's easier to visualize the wider network?

OK:

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

OK:

Bringing in buses:

Per the 010513 Revised Schedule:

15 and 15L From Civic Station East to Colorado; and to I-225

Express 12 minutes 25 to 29 (to future LR Colfax Station)

Local 19 21 to 25

This establishes a base line.

For comparison the H line goes from Parker to DUS light in 33 minutes

(in the new schedule there are no direct light rail trains from 9 mile to DUS light)

Based upon these very preliminary info, as is, an express bus on E Colfax takes the same time to get from about Peoria to Colfax and Broadway as the H train does to get to the 16th Street Mall.

I am beginning to believe that while two subway lines running under Colorado and Colfax would make the street's boom, the costs would be astronomic. Likewise, Colfax and Colorado are not wide streets, and, removing 2 lanes for light rail would not sit well with merchants doing their own cost benefit analysis.

I there suggest that the bus service be radically altered, with express buses running parallel to E Colfax, possibly on E 14th and E 13 to Yosemite, where curbside parking could be eliminated on one side of each street for a bus only during rush hour lane. In addition, express buses and traffic signals could communicate during rush hours. When a bus seizes light X the yellow light starts flashing in both directions, and, then turns red on the intersection traffic.
From Yosemite east run the buses as they are run now (i.e., make the 15L bus a true express bus, and, key 15 local buses into a few share points).

However, if, for some reason, Colorado et al ran into a pot of money, and a subway was put in, I would put the subway that would form a one transfer circular loop with the light rail at Broadway, and, the other end near the Federal light rail stop, via both Colorado and Colfax.

[Interzen]

Thanks for the map update Cirrus.

A few more thoughts on the BRT line to Decatur. Would we still be shooting for dedicated ROW? If so Glenarm would probobly have to loose it's parking. It seems like it may be hard to get ROW on Colfax east of Auraria.

If we do manage to get dedicated ROW on Colfax how likely would it be that both directions would be on the north side of the street where the Auraria-Colfax station is. That's a very unfriendly place to cross Colfax and I could see people avoiding a transfer there if crossing were required to catch a BRT or streetcar.

It would be great to coordinate the construction with the planned relocation of the early childhood development program occupying the single story buildings at 7th and Colfax. If a dozen or so meters of extra ROW were carved out there and the light rail station was slid west a block it would make for a spacious transfer station.

I know it seems like I'm obsessed with this minor element, but I cant find anything to add regarding the rest of the proposed lines and this is the neighborhood I know best.

[Interzen]

I just had another thought. Civic Center Park is the major festival location in Denver with Colfax and Broadway closed many weekends a year. I wonder how much push-back there would be over any changes, and if or how service could be maintained during such events that are used to setting up vendors on both streets.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by Interzen

Thanks for the map update Cirrus.

A few more thoughts on the BRT line to Decatur. Would we still be shooting for dedicated ROW? If so Glenarm would probobly have to loose it's parking. It seems like it may be hard to get ROW on Colfax east of Auraria.

If we do manage to get dedicated ROW on Colfax how likely would it be that both directions would be on the north side of the street where the Auraria-Colfax station is. That's a very unfriendly place to cross Colfax and I could see people avoiding a transfer there if crossing were required to catch a BRT or streetcar.

It would be great to coordinate the construction with the planned relocation of the early childhood development program occupying the single story buildings at 7th and Colfax. If a dozen or so meters of extra ROW were carved out there and the light rail station was slid west a block it would make for a spacious transfer station.

I know it seems like I'm obsessed with this minor element, but I cant find anything to add regarding the rest of the proposed lines and this is the neighborhood I know best.

Looking at https://www.google.com/maps/preview?...!2m1!1e3&fid=7

The width of Colfax seems to widen east of Monaco Parkway, as defined by the amount of curbside parking. West of Monaco, Colfax is predominantly 5 lanes wide with the 5th lane being used as a turn access lane. East of Monaco, Colfax is often 7 lanes wide with 4 traffic lanes, 1 turn lane, and, curbside parking.

East of Monaco, BRT or light rail could easily occupy 2 center lanes. West of Monaco, the problem is more complex with one line available.

A possible solution might be for a one way BRT or LR right of way west of Monaco, with east 14th and 13th Ave being used during rush hour for the non-rush hour direction. Another solution would be set east and west routes down different streets permanently,

In either case, most left hand turns would have to be eliminated, limiting left hand turns to a few all way stops, with traffic light controlled turns from the inner of the two traffic lanes. Realistically, Colfax would need to be widened 1 lanes at such intersections and that lane would be used for left turns (the left hand turn lane would become the left most traffic lane on either side of an intersection.)

[Grateful Denver]

Hard to believe I've been lurking on this forum intermittently for over 10 years since I was still in High School and you all where working on the Beyond FastTracks plan. This forum played a really strong role in my decision to pursue a career in Architecture and Planning, and that path has lead me from East High to Tulane University to working in one of the mammoth architecture firms here in Washington DC for the past few years (and lurking on GGW). Cirrus, I see a lot of similarities between what your aiming for here, and the current Streetcar and Circulator Effort in DC. And I want in.

My first thoughts are about the Cherry Creek Line. I think the Ideal routing is both directions down 6th avenue or Speer. Couplets are bad and 8th avenue doesn't have quite the commercial vibrance of 6th. Removing two lanes from 6th is probably untenable but potentially you could have E bound SC running in mixed traffic and W bound in transit way?

The real point I wanted to make is while we would all love streetcars on Speer or on 6th and 8th, why haven't we explored running the Cherry Creek line as a spur off the Colfax line, running in mixed traffic down York and Josephine. At first glance this routing shaves about a mile of track, and still hits some decent stations such as the 12th and York apartment clusters, Botantic Gardens / Congress, 6th Ave Retail District, and Cherry Creek North. I dont think its the IDEAL route but its in interesting alternative.

One of the real issues IMO with the 6th and 8th couplet has to do with the type of homeowners on 7th Ave. This is all conjecture, and has a lot to do with me attending East High, and growing up nearby, but 7th Ave homeowners have one of the highest concentrations of wealth and power in the City of Denver. I think you could find support for a streetcar that served their neighborhood (@ york / congress / 6th) but I think there would be a huge backlash to streetcars on 6th and 8th running the length of their neighborhood.

Final thought for today. Why not continue cherry creek streetcar down leetsdale to quebec. 83L is one of the busiest bus lines for a reason, and their is still a lot of untapped land along the corridor, as well as older multi unit buildings that are ready for renovation and growth. Full disclosure, I grew up near leetsdale and holly.

Really nice to see all of the work you guys have put into this, and to see the same familiar internet faces here for 10 years. I would be glad to assist in creating the presentation graphics for this project or helping in any other way I can. Let me know how i can help

[Cirrus]

Thanks for chiming in. Please keep coming!

Originally Posted by Grateful Denver

why haven't we explored running the Cherry Creek line as a spur off the Colfax line, running in mixed traffic down York and Josephine. At first glance this routing shaves about a mile of track, and still hits some decent stations such as the 12th and York apartment clusters, Botantic Gardens / Congress, 6th Ave Retail District, and Cherry Creek North.

This is a very intriguing idea. It would seemingly save money. Is it better otherwise? My assumption, and it is only an assumption, is that there are more trips between Cherry Creek & Broadway than between Cherry Creek & Colfax. But maybe it's not enough of a difference to matter.

Thoughts from everyone else?

Maybe the next step is to set up a poll to vote on alternates like this, Decatur, etc.

[RyanD]

Would it be more beneficial to reconfigure the RiNo line to Blake and add a couple pedestrian bridges to activate Brighton? Also, I don't remember seeing this or asking it before, why can't we start the RiNo line at Civic Center, run it down Broadway and then go up either Blake / Larimer / Walnut?

EDIT: Sorry if I didn't sufficiently read this in the previous pages but why did we nix the Highlands to get a streetcar and move it to BRT? I don't like that in the slightest. I think if we're going to have a solid streetcar network the Highlands need to be included.

[DenverInfill]

I can't imagine Northwest Denver/Highlands without a streetcar line. After all, it's has perhaps the strongest streetcar legacy of any Denver neighborhood.

I'm late to weigh in here, but not because I'm not interested. I've thought a lot about a Highland streetcar and see it going like this:

Phase 1: 15th to Boulder to 16th to Tejon to 32nd, ending at Federal with a transfer station to Federal BRT.

Phase 2: Extend to 32nd and Lowell area.

Next, the Downtown Area Plan and the Auraria Campus Master Plans identify a Larimer streetcar line to connect the Auraria West Campus LRT station with 38th and Blake.

Finally, an idea that came out of our Downtown>Cherry Creek streetcar studio was the idea of a southern Downtown east-west connector along W. 11th Avenue. There used to be a streetcar once along W. 11th in the GT. A streetcar line could go from Civic Center/Broadway area west along 11th to the 10th and Osage LRT station, providing another good way for people to get to Civic Center/Upper Downtown without having to transfer from DUS or the Downtown Loop. Also, the streetcar stop at 11th and Santa Fe would put you right in the middle of the Santa Fe Arts District.

[DenverInfill]

Also, there are a ton of issues with having streetcars operate at the 1st and University intersection. I think a better approach, if you want to use Josephine/York as one-way pairs, is to turn onto 2nd Avenue.

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

I can't imagine Northwest Denver/Highlands without a streetcar line. After all, it's has perhaps the strongest streetcar legacy of any Denver neighborhood.

Yep. Not having it without a Highland connection.. Here's a quick sketch of what I was talking about earlier about RiNo and my 2 cents with Highlands.. (I don't have the proper software at work to do a real good drawing but I made do with office and screenshots )

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

I can't imagine Northwest Denver/Highlands without a streetcar line. After all, it's has perhaps the strongest streetcar legacy of any Denver neighborhood.

I'm late to weigh in here, but not because I'm not interested. I've thought a lot about a Highland streetcar and see it going like this:

Phase 1: 15th to Boulder to 16th to Tejon to 32nd, ending at Federal with a transfer station to Federal BRT.

Phase 2: Extend to 32nd and Lowell area.

Next, the Downtown Area Plan and the Auraria Campus Master Plans identify a Larimer streetcar line to connect the Auraria West Campus LRT station with 38th and Blake.

Finally, an idea that came out of our Downtown>Cherry Creek streetcar studio was the idea of a southern Downtown east-west connector along W. 11th Avenue. There used to be a streetcar once along W. 11th in the GT. A streetcar line could go from Civic Center/Broadway area west along 11th to the 10th and Osage LRT station, providing another good way for people to get to Civic Center/Upper Downtown without having to transfer from DUS or the Downtown Loop. Also, the streetcar stop at 11th and Santa Fe would put you right in the middle of the Santa Fe Arts District.

I took a look at http://denverstreetcars.net/info.htm which has a map of the trolley and bus routes from the Denver Tramway Corporation that appears to be printed in the late 40s.

A few factors stand out:

1st) There are no freeways.

While this is obvious, the routes of the buses and trolleys were heavily used by the "carless." The job center was State Capitol to Denver Union Station axis. While the heart of the corresponds remarkably to the current Civic Station to DUS axis, the percentage of metro jobs in that heart was perhaps 50 to 60%, versus the current 10 to 11 percent today

2nd)

The only east-west axis is Colfax. At the time of the map, Colfax (and the Golden trolley) was the I-70 + Colfax + C470 of it's time.

Likewise, the north south axis is Broadway and the northeast axis goes into North Denver- the Boulder Turnpike of it's time.

These routes, IMO, served primarily as commuter lines, and, based upon the footprint of the City at the time, were primarily 15 to 30 minute commutes.

3rd

A far greater percentage of Denver's population at the time of this map was clustered close to downtown than today which reflects the growth pattern of Denver during it's first 75 years, where the jobs were, and, no Auto growth patterns.

***********

This affects, IMO, the need for street car/light rail lines to be placed differently that appears to be proposed by most thinkers here; the money needs to be spent on a looser "grid" of streetcars and other conveyances. While "loose", the grid needs to be both "tighter" as well as have far more switch points than the steel wheel system being built has.

There are natural transfer points outside the Civic Station - DUS axis- among the more prominent are Colfax with Peoria, Quebec, Monaco, Colorado, Broadway, and Federal. Likewise, there are prominent intersections with current or planned light rail stations- the W line and Sheridan, Wadsworth, and Kipling. Another for example, the I-225 line with Colfax, and Peoria, and, the Broadway Station with Broadway.

Any expansion, IMO, must deal with using prominent intersections as transfer points. Serving residential areas- particularly currently upper middle class areas would be a waste of money both from the standpoint of ridership, and, from the standpoint of potential investment along routes.

Another way to look at this is from the car usage standpoint- the busiest non-freeway intersections would provide the best locations for transfer points on light rail/BRT/subway configurations.

Based upon this approach, the best lines would be in no particular order:

Broadway/Lincoln from Broadway to Welton.

Colfax from Federal to I-225 through Civic Station

Colorado from Evans to the 40th and Colorado DIA line station.

Each line should terminate at each end to a light rail or heavy rail station.