Perimeter Highway | Winnipeg

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by trueviking

stupid waste of money....the government is shoving austerity down our throats on everything and somehow there's half a billion dollars available to save trucks a few minutes on their cross country drive? That money could go to much better use.

Who really believes the best use of their tax dollars is building clover leaf overpasses on the perimeter highway? its truly unbeilivable how people salivate over this....add the words american freeway and everyone goes crazy....imagine the quality of life changes we could make with that money.

It's not just about saving trucks a few minutes its also a safety issue and the south perimeter is now a stretch of really unsafe highway because the volume of traffic now exceeds capacity.

[Spocket]

Well, the Perimeter has been waiting what, over 60 years to be completed as planned. I agree that there are other things we can spend money on. There are always other things we can spend money on.

[LilZebra]

Originally Posted by Spocket

Well, the Perimeter has been waiting what, over 60 years to be completed as planned. I agree that there are other things we can spend money on. There are always other things we can spend money on.

Yeah, like "Diversity Gardens" where visitors will have to pay $10 (or more) to visit the darned place. Or the CMHR to pay for a down museum, not a happy museum like we should have.

[Pinus]

Originally Posted by LilZebra

Yeah, like "Diversity Gardens" where visitors will have to pay $10 (or more) to visit the darned place. Or the CMHR to pay for a down museum, not a happy museum like we should have.

What is so bad about paying admission fees? I have no problems with as much and supporting city venues that I feel help make it more of a destination and enhance the quality of urban life for both tourists and citizens alike.

Are you that hard up for fun and entertainment options in your life? FFS This bloody cheapskate mentality needs to die, and die quickly; never to return.

[LilZebra]

Originally Posted by Pinus

What is so bad about paying admission fees? I have no problems with as much and supporting city venues that I feel help make it more of a destination and enhance the quality of urban life for both tourists and citizens alike.

Are you that hard up for fun and entertainment options in your life? FFS This bloody cheapskate mentality needs to die, and die quickly; never to return.

$10 is a lot of $ for an Unemployed soul.

$19 is a lot of $ for an Unemployed soul who want to visit the Assin. Pk. Zoo. I still haven't been to the new Polar Bear exhibit.

[Biff]

I just want to illustrate that the St Norbert bypass is a part of this "Study", for study purposes only. It will not likely be built with the upgrades to the Perimeter. The Perimeter upgrades are necessary from a safety perspective and as others have noted had no upgrades in over 50 years.

I understand some of the objections to spending this kind of money on this project but my feelings are that although Community Centres, Rapid Transit, Libraries etc are all required for great cities, so too is transportation routes for the movement of goods and services.

Show me any great city in the world with world class cultural facilities - London, Paris, Amsterdam, Venice, Rome, Copenhagen, Barcelona and they all also have modern freeways and highway infrastructure to go with it.

Winnipeg is, as far as I can tell one of the only major cities anywhere that I can think of that doesn't have ONE decent strip of limited access highway (the whole province for that matter). I am happy that the city never agreed to be bisected with intercity freeways that so many cities have been plagued with but the capital region should have some form of proper highways.

We strive to sell ourselves as a transportation oriented business centre so my feeling is that it is much needed to grow that future.

...and, I travel the south perimeter home every day from the south to North Kildonan (my work moved from downtown to the south - not my choice) and believe me, it is a dangerous piece of high speed roadway and it has gotten much worse in the last 5 years. It needs work.

Sorry Vike.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Having traffic signals on the south perimeter at St. Annes and St. Marys for the last 40 years was ridiculous, with the increase in traffic volume and vehicles waiting a couple light cycles to get through on the perimeter now borders on insanity. The south perimeter should have been made free flowing years ago and should have been done before the lightly used CentrePort Way saw the light of day!

Worse than having traffic signals at St Annes and St Marys on the Perimeter for 40+ years is how the City of Winnipeg has continued to approve one residential development after another in the area without investing any of its own money into building out a proper regional road network to support that development. It is as much the inaction by the City as the design of the Perimeter being outdated that has lead to the current problem.

To suggest CentrePort Way itself wasn't needed only shows a lack of insight into issues beyond your own backyard. Inkster between Route 90 and the Perimeter was a heavily travelled route by both personal and commercial vehicles. It was past the point of being unsafe and needed attention. There was a targeted block of funding available from the federal government that could not be used for the south Perimeter that was directed into improving road access in the northwest corner. It will eventually be part of the inner ring road network if city hall stops wasting infrastructure funding opportunities on basic road maintenance. Having a proper east-west high speed corridor on the north side of the city is absolutely essential and as long, if not longer, overdue that upgrades to the south Perimeter. Heck the first leg of that route is 25+ years old now and the south Perimeter became an issue in the last 10-15 years.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by CoryB

To suggest CentrePort Way itself wasn't needed only shows a lack of insight into issues beyond your own backyard. Inkster between Route 90 and the Perimeter was a heavily travelled route by both personal and commercial vehicles. It was past the point of being unsafe and needed attention. There was a targeted block of funding available from the federal government that could not be used for the south Perimeter that was directed into improving road access in the northwest corner. It will eventually be part of the inner ring road network if city hall stops wasting infrastructure funding opportunities on basic road maintenance. Having a proper east-west high speed corridor on the north side of the city is absolutely essential and as long, if not longer, overdue that upgrades to the south Perimeter. Heck the first leg of that route is 25+ years old now and the south Perimeter became an issue in the last 10-15 years.

Two thoughts:

1. Twinning Inkster from Route 90 to the Perimeter would have been a sufficient upgrade for that stretch of road that I agree was unsafe and inadequate. Choosing to build CCW was the deluxe option.

2. Just as in south Winnipeg, there are going to be two high speed routes across north Winnipeg... inner ring (Chief Peguis Trail) and the Perimeter. The kicker though is that unlike south Winnipeg, there will be nothing but farmland between the inner ring and the Perimeter (pretty well the case for the entire stretch west of Ferrier). So to that extent, I'd say north Winnipeg will be better served than any other part of town.

I honestly don't get why you're pushing this aggrieved North End narrative when the truth is that the North End is just as well served as the south side when it comes to commuting routes, if not better. You look at where the traffic pinch-points in this town are, and not many of them are north of the CP tracks.

[bomberjet]

To be fair, there was not much south of Bishop Grandin 30 years ago either. Some stuff along Pembina. 30 years from now (if CPT goes ahead anytime soon) I'm sure that area will be full of sprawl. It's all being planned right now through the various precinct plans and CentrePort.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by Biff

I just want to illustrate that the St Norbert bypass is a part of this "Study", for study purposes only. It will not likely be built with the upgrades to the Perimeter. The Perimeter upgrades are necessary from a safety perspective and as others have noted had no upgrades in over 50 years.

Come on Biff, you have to know there have been a number of upgrades that both improved and in some cases worsened safety on the Perimeter in the past 50 years. Of the top of my head:

- redesign on the bridge at Henderson/Red River -- it used to have pedestrian sidewalks on both sides!

- twinning of the Perimeter between HWY 1 East and HWY 15.

- Construction of the "missing link" between HWY 15 and HWY 59.

- the "temporary" construction detour at 101/59 that lasted 25+ years and resulted in a high profile death

- a complete rebuild from Inkster (now Rosser Rd) to HWY 1 including the removal of two traffic lights and an at grade rail crossing, all where deaths occurred in the past.

- the addition of traffic lights at 330

- new access for Gunn Rd with full left turns into a 100 KM/H zone with nothing more than a stop sign on Gunn Rd.

- we also now have the grade separation of 59/101 well under construction that will also grade separate the active transportation corridor at Raleigh and effective rebuild the Perimeter from Henderson to well past 59 and reconstruct a shorter section on 59.

It isn't a perfect list but it is also far more than "no upgrades in over 50 years".

[esquire]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Come on Biff, you have to know there have been a number of upgrades that both improved and in some cases worsened safety on the Perimeter in the past 50 years. Of the top of my head:

The mere act of finishing the Perimeter decades later doesn't count as an "upgrade" in my books. A few interchanges were built during the 70s and 80s and then again at CCW, that's about it as far as meaningful upgrades. I don't think minor changes to bridges really qualify as significant.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by esquire

Two thoughts:

1. Twinning Inkster from Route 90 to the Perimeter would have been a sufficient upgrade for that stretch of road that I agree was unsafe and inadequate. Choosing to build CCW was the deluxe option.

That really glosses over a couple of points though:

1. It fails to take into account the planned alignment for HWY 6 from the Perimeter to the inner ring road network. There was no easy way to connect it with Inkster and grade separate them.

2. The rail crossing on Inkster was challenging to deal with due to the angles between the two routes.

3. The existing grade separation at the Perimeter was limited to being a collapsed diamond with only two lanes of through traffic.

4. Twinning Inkster over CCW would have done nothing about the CP Main line on the Perimeter.

5. Along those same lines, twinning Inkster would not have addressed the signalled at-grade intersection with Saskatchewan at the Perimeter. This was made a through-access only as part of CCW.

6. Twinning Inkster would not have eliminated the deadly left-turn access light from the Perimeter to the ASD/Red River Ex site. As that section was rebuild as part of CCW the light no longer exists and left turn access is gone.

7. Twinning Inkster would not have done anything to prepare for the long overdue Headingley bypass to connect to the Perimeter.

Considering "twining Inkster" would have effectively required the removal and complete rebuild of the existing interchange at the Perimeter and left all these other issues unaddressed, in the big picture view of things it definitely makes sense. It is similar to how Waverly, Kennaston, Brady Rd and St Nobert By-Pass all have a complex interwoven consideration on the south Perimeter.

Originally Posted by esquire

2. Just as in south Winnipeg, there are going to be two high speed routes across north Winnipeg... inner ring (Chief Peguis Trail) and the Perimeter. The kicker though is that unlike south Winnipeg, there will be nothing but farmland between the inner ring and the Perimeter (pretty well the case for the entire stretch west of Ferrier). So to that extent, I'd say north Winnipeg will be better served than any other part of town.

I honestly don't get why you're pushing this aggrieved North End narrative when the truth is that the North End is just as well served as the south side when it comes to commuting routes, if not better. You look at where the traffic pinch-points in this town are, and not many of them are north of the CP tracks.

You have to be joking. The current "solution" on the north side of Winnipeg is to force traffic off a proper regional street onto residential streets. A prime example of that would be Springfield Rd between Henderson and Gateway before that section of CPT was built. Lelia, Jefferson and Inkster, three commonly used east-west routes in that part of the city are all residential streets. Best of my knowledge there is nothing else like that in other parts of the city where a proper alternative route couldn't be used. In northwest Winnipeg there is no choice but to use those roads.

As for the farmland comment, well considering most parts of the route are already built up the planned CPT extension and will likely jump that before the route is built it is sort of pointless. How long after Bishop was built was there nothing but farm land between it and the Perimeter? CPT won't sit around anywhere near that long like that.

As I mentioned earlier, if you use the standard of 2 KM between grade separated crossing on the Perimeter for south Winnipeg people between quickly wrap their heads around the fact that it means another access point on the north Perimeter between Pipeline and Route 90 that would lineup approximately with Keewatin. Based on the speed of the growth in that area that is a 5-10 year issue. I really hope the province has the vision to make the Perimeter limited access between 59 and HWY 6 including building a diamond at Pipeline ASAP. then when the push comes from the land developers for the new access point they will have some teeth to push back and demand they put up the cash to built their own diamond before the development gets approved.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by esquire

I don't think minor changes to bridges really qualify as significant.

The changes to the Henderson bridge, from memory, widened the lanes and actually improved the safety railing for vehicles yet there was still a fairly high profile incident of a vehicle jumping the railing on that very bridge.

[optimusREIM]

Pipeline's access should be axed for a few thousand bucks instead of spending tens of millions on a diamond.

[Biff]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Come on Biff, you have to know there have been a number of upgrades that both improved and in some cases worsened safety on the Perimeter in the past 50 years. Of the top of my head:

I was referring to the south Perimeter. The north Perimeter has had numerous updates as you have mentioned.

Since originally built what can you think of that has been upgraded along the south Perimeter....adding lights doesn't count.

[esquire]

^ Last actual upgrade to my recollection (excluding lights and rehabs) would be the Roblin Blvd interchange sometime maybe in the early 1980s. I'm hard pressed to think of anything else on the south Perimeter.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Last actual upgrade to my recollection (excluding lights and rehabs) would be the Roblin Blvd interchange sometime maybe in the early 1980s. I'm hard pressed to think of anything else on the south Perimeter.

I was under the impression that the 59/100 interchange was an addition after the fact but what era that was done escapes me

[esquire]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

I was under the impression that the 59/100 interchange was an addition after the fact but what era that was done escapes me

That was an addition, but it came before Roblin/100 IIRC.

[Bluenote]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

Pipeline's access should be axed for a few thousand bucks instead of spending tens of millions on a diamond.

Exactly. There is NOTHING for over 2 Kms between the north perimeter and the city but farm land. Pipeline north of the perimeter isn't even part of the city. So I fail to see why we have to have this access at all. There are maybe in the 10 square km area about 60 homes. That's it. They can take the nice paved road right to mcphillips. There is even a light there for safety.

Now let's take the south perimeter...
St vital is right up to it. And the land south of it is also part of St. Vital. There are plans to jump the highway and start developing all that as well. St vital has now filled in every single space north of the perimeter. They have to jump it. It's not if. It's when.
St Mary's and st Anne's. Are both city roads. Everything between the floodway and south perimeter is still st vital. That means it's the city of Winnipeg.

Let's go back to this 60 homes in West St Paul. What did I just say? Oh that's right "West St Paul". Not Winnipeg.

[esquire]

One set of lights at Grassmere (PR 220) and PTH 8 is enough for that clump of homes north of the Perimeter in West St. Paul, two sets of lights (i.e. Perimeter at Pipeline) is excessive.