City Murder Rates

[Acajack]

Cases of citizens killed by police aren't all murders. In fact, in the US the vast majority of them are not murders. Not sure about Brazil.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Cases of citizens killed by police aren't all murders. In fact, in the US the vast majority of them are not murders. Not sure about Brazil.

In fact, they are hardly regarded as such, specially in more violent countries like Brazil, where most of those deaths are on confronts will armed criminals.

When the States Secretaries report homicides, they will use the legal definition. If the police officer were investigated/charged, than it's murder, otherwise it's not.

If one is interested on the total number of violent deaths, by the police or not, then the best source is the Ministry of Health. They just feed the data with "violent death inflicted by other person" or something along those lines. If I'm not mistaken, it's 43k-44k homicides in Brazil 49-50k killings.

[badrunner]

Originally Posted by Yuri

And why on Earth I’d mention high police killing as good policy?! I certainly don’t relate police killing more with reducing crimes. São Paulo state police neither.

You’re the one assuming the decrease on crimes rates in São Paulo are due police lethality. It’s not. It’s due better careers, billions on equipments, cars, helicopters, cameras, satellites, the whole package.

Crime is an important issue in Brazil and governor will try to implement a policy aiming to deal with this situation. Crime law in Brazil is a federal matter only, so the states only have their polices to deal with the problem.

If you're going to suggest Brazilian policing as a "model" for the US, then it would be highly disingenuous to only mention the positive results and omit the unacceptably high numbers of extrajudicial killings (the very thing that would make it a non-starter here). Whether or not you think the killings are effective at reducing crime rates is beside the point, it is still part and parcel of Brazilian policing.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Yuri

In fact, they are hardly regarded as such, specially in more violent countries like Brazil, where most of those deaths are on confronts will armed criminals.

We don't know that. No one knows how many people have been murdered by Brazilian police. It's garbage data.

Thousands of people just disappear. In most cases, governments are complicit in extrajudicial executions. This is a huge issue in Mexico. Troublemakers are simply erased.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Crawford

We don't know that. No one knows how many people have been murdered by Brazilian police. It's garbage data.

Thousands of people just disappear. In most cases, governments are complicit in extrajudicial executions. This is a huge issue in Mexico. People are simply erased.

There are plenty of studies regarding disappearances, and that's, as homicides are mostly due criminals themselves than the police. I know you people are informed about other countries through those infamous Hollywood's yellow screens, but any intelligent person knows that is not a good source of information.

Police operations killing lots of people are widely publicized (the one two months ago in Rio, where 25 people died comes to mind). Police didn't get much flak because there are not many people wanting to speak in favor of heavily armed criminals. When the police kills innocent people (children are often fatalities in traffic controlled Rio's favelas), police is heavily critized.

What you mean by "governments"? The president, the congress, the governors, the state assemblies, the opposition, the judiciary, the attorney offices, the polices itself, the high or low ranks, the local and national press, the universities, the hospitals issuing death certificates? Who are those thousands behind this conspiracy? How they're paid? Be careful, otherwise you won't be so different of those people on the far-right addicted on fake news, globalism, Q-Anon, etc.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by badrunner

If you're going to suggest Brazilian policing as a "model" for the US, then it would be highly disingenuous to only mention the positive results and omit the unacceptably high numbers of extrajudicial killings (the very thing that would make it a non-starter here). Whether or not you think the killings are effective at reducing crime rates is beside the point, it is still part and parcel of Brazilian policing.

Firstly, there is no "Brazilian policing". There are 27 state polices, some are successful others not. Some used to be good and are not anymore, some used to be bad and now are better.

I mentioned São Paulo state did a superb job fighting crime. It was one the most violent states in the country around 2000 and now it's by far the safest. Homicides in the state is at 2,800 (7/100,000) down from over 10,000 (35/100,000) mere two decades ago. Security budget is at massive R$ 30 billion (over 10% of state's budget). They decided to invest heavily on it and fortunately results came.

Any place in the world that managed to reduce homicides by 80% are doing something right and certainly lots can be learnt from it. Regarding crime, São Paulo is a much better place now than it was till the early 2000's.

Extrajudicial killings have nothing to do with São Paulo state crime policy. It was a problem in the past when violence was out of control as it's a problem today when things are much better. In a violent country, where criminals have access to weaponry, where police officers themselves are exposed to danger situations, police lethality tends to be high.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Yuri

There are plenty of studies regarding disappearances, and that's, as homicides are mostly due criminals themselves than the police. I know you people are informed about other countries through those infamous Hollywood's yellow screens, but any intelligent person knows that is not a good source of information.

Bullshit. Has nothing to do with Hollywood or QAnon. I don't think any Latin American country would have trustworthy govt. data re. extrajudicial killings. In fact it's QAnon crazy to not think that people disappear in nondemocratic societies, with minimal rule of law and accountability.

My wife grew up in Chile, and almost everyone of a certain age knows people who disappeared under Pinochet. Brazil was officially a dictatorship until 1985. Mexico has mass disappearances, all the time. The police are in cahoots with organized crime.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Bullshit. Has nothing to do with Hollywood or QAnon. I don't think any Latin American country would have trustworthy govt. data re. extrajudicial killings. In fact it's QAnon crazy to not think that people disappear in nondemocratic societies, with minimal rule of law and accountability.

My wife grew up in Chile, and almost everyone of a certain age knows people who disappeared under Pinochet. Brazil was officially a dictatorship until 1985. Mexico has mass disappearances, all the time. The police are in cahoots with organized crime.

They might not have the most perfect data, because disappearances are a tricky figure anywhere, including the US. There are certainly a disturbing high number of people buried in the US without proper identification or disappearances unsolved for decades.

That doesn't mean "governments" (for whatever you mean by that) are actively trying to hide figures to protect working class cops or from the general public that are not particularly against trigger-happy officers. In fact, there's a quite popular saying in Brazil, specially in the political right and also on the lower classes that are addicted to those crime news that infest open TV: bandido bom é bandido morto (good criminal is a dead criminal). There's zero reasons to downplay police killings in Brazil as the public either don't care or might actually like it.

Your references to Latin American political disapperances/deaths (with full support of Washington) in the 1970's show you are completely lost here. What it has to do with urban violence in the 21st century? It's like I mixing Vietnam War with the LAPD or NYPD. It seems you know nothing about those countries and have to pick up well-known historical facts, like in a conversation about a random some nightclub in Berlin, one bringing Nazis to the conversation.

[badrunner]

I could post some damning articles and videos re: Brazilian extrajudicial killings, but why bother, it's off topic anyway. People don't really care. Yuri obviously doesn't. It's just silly when someone from a third world country keeps saying how the US should adopt this or that thing from his country, whether it's education, policing or urban design. It's just totally uncritical and uninformed boosterism. In a thread where people are openly discussing difficult and intractable problems in American society, he and his country have all the answers. Just don't look behind the curtain or you're a racist and xenophobe.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Yuri

Firstly, there is no "Brazilian policing". There are 27 state polices, some are successful others not. Some used to be good and are not anymore, some used to be bad and now are better.

I mentioned São Paulo state did a superb job fighting crime. It was one the most violent states in the country around 2000 and now it's by far the safest. Homicides in the state is at 2,800 (7/100,000) down from over 10,000 (35/100,000) mere two decades ago. Security budget is at massive R$ 30 billion (over 10% of state's budget). They decided to invest heavily on it and fortunately results came.

Any place in the world that managed to reduce homicides by 80% are doing something right and certainly lots can be learnt from it. Regarding crime, São Paulo is a much better place now than it was till the early 2000's.

Extrajudicial killings have nothing to do with São Paulo state crime policy. It was a problem in the past when violence was out of control as it's a problem today when things are much better. In a violent country, where criminals have access to weaponry, where police officers themselves are exposed to danger situations, police lethality tends to be high.

I don't support extra-judicial killings of course, but it's funny when we have discussions like these how so many people are overly concerned with these poor criminals who are getting mistreated, yet show comparatively little concern for their victims...

[Acajack]

In the US (and even moreso in Canada) what you might call truly criminal extra-judicial killings are so rare as a % of police interactions with the public that they're basically almost a non-factor.

Yes, they do happen from time to time and when they do they should be investigated and punished.

But some people have gone out of their way to convince people that it's just a regular everyday part of how cops do their everyday work. Like a standard operating procedure.

[Acajack]

Just one example:

Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc

Some other folks will feel a little butt hurt about this truth: Unless and until minorities and the communities that most need the cops can trust those cops not to basically kill them for sport, the social contract is broken and won't work. If and when those communities and minorities can expect equal justice, then the contract works, the cops' jobs get a lot easier, and cities will be safer.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't support extra-judicial killings of course, but it's funny when we have discussions like these how so many people are overly concerned with these poor criminals who are getting mistreated, yet show comparatively little concern for their victims...

Indeed. It's almost like young Black/poor people killing each other should be expected, as if it was part of nature. This level of patronizing is extremely racist.

Police firing way too much against armed criminals is not an ideal thing, but neither homicides going out of control in the poorer part of the cities.

Originally Posted by Acajack

In the US (and even moreso in Canada) what you might call truly criminal extra-judicial killings are so rare as a % of police interactions with the public that they're basically almost a non-factor.

Yes, they do happen from time to time and when they do they should be investigated and punished.

But some people have gone out of their way to convince people that it's just a regular everyday part of how cops do their everyday work. Like a standard operating procedure.

Even in Brazil truly extra-judicial killing is not everyday work. In fact, not even killings resulting of armed confrontation with police is a daily thing. According to stats posted above, São Paulo state police kills 2.5 people/day. It's excessive, but giving São Paulo Military Police counts 100,000 officers, we're talking about millions of interactions every single day throughout the state.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't support extra-judicial killings of course, but it's funny when we have discussions like these how so many people are overly concerned with these poor criminals who are getting mistreated, yet show comparatively little concern for their victims...

It's a response to how policing in the United States has had the unintended consequence of creating a lot of lifelong criminals.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

It's a response to how policing in the United States has had the unintended consequence of creating a lot of lifelong criminals.

The latter part of your statement is likely true but that doesn't mean (as the first part suggests) that this is in any way an appropriate response to that.

[Crawford]

There's no evidence that the police are exclusively or even primarily killing "criminals". The term is being used as a slur, to erase people's humanity.

In Mexico, 43 protesting university students disappeared without any trace a few years back. The govt. claims it knows nothing, and anyways, they were "criminals". There's plenty of evidence that federal police were working with cartels to murder the protestors.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The latter part of your statement is likely true but that doesn't mean (as the first part suggests) that this is in any way an appropriate response to that.

But policing mostly isn't the answer to bringing down murder rates. Most murders aren't random, so policing does little to move murder rates (as should be fairly obvious, considering how heavily policed the U.S. is, while having some of the highest murder rates in the developed world).

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Crawford

There's no evidence that the police are exclusively or even primarily killing "criminals". The term is being used as a slur, to erase people's humanity.

In Mexico, 43 protesting university students disappeared without any trace a few years back. The govt. claims it knows nothing, and anyways, they were "criminals". There's plenty of evidence that federal police were working with cartels to murder the protestors.

Mexico is tens of thousands away of Brazil. You know, a different country, that borders your country and with 20-30 million nationals living there.

Not sure why things happening in Mexico should have something to do with things in Patagonia.

Police is killing primarily criminals, that's why there is no outcry. Any times police kills an innocent person, then you have the national press all over it. Again nothing to do with your cover-up Q-Anon type of fantasies.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

But policing mostly isn't the answer to bringing down murder rates. Most murders aren't random, so policing does little to move murder rates (as should be fairly obvious, considering how heavily policed the U.S. is, while having some of the highest murder rates in the developed world).

iheartthed, you have plenty of examples where increasing investments in police brought down murder rates. São Paulo is a very good example of it: the most populated state in Americas brought the rates down after a very comprehensive policy of reducing crime rates. I hear in Colombia they had some success but I'm not familiar with their experience. And New York itself.

I don't think Chicago, Detroit, Baltimore or St. Louis are helpless. There are certainly plenty of things the local police could/should do to bring those rates down.

[Doady]

More policing doesn't help reduce crime if people lose faith in the justice system. You can see that in Canada which abolished the death penalty and continues to reduce even the prison sentences, and so the reported crime rates continue to drop, but of course the true crime rates would tell a much different story.

Police can only make a difference if the criminals actually get punished, and fact is the police can't inflict punishment by themselves, and these days they might even be discouraged from inflicting it.