Affordable Housing Rally

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by Caliplanner1

Jebby, you're more than welcome to your opinion but here's a little scholarly research for you from your esteemed UBC!
backb
http://www.vancouversun.com/business...260/story.html

Where does that "scholarly research" back up either of these two claims you made:

1) That conservatives and capitalists hate the poor.
2) Vancouver's housing stock is being "commanded" by foreign investers with high 8-figure anual incomes.

[Delirium]

Originally Posted by Caliplanner1

Jebby, you're more than welcome to your opinion but here's a little scholarly research for you from your esteemed UBC!

http://www.vancouversun.com/business...260/story.html

i wonder how foreign students deal with the sky hight housing prices in NYC or Hong kong or London? like it or not, but we're now part of this group.

"The two greatest stores of wealth internationally today is contemporary art and apartments in Manhattan, Vancouver, and London"
- Larry Fink, Blackrock CEO, May 2015

*Blackrock: assets under management: $4.7 Trillion
Assets: $217 billion
Revenue (2013) $10.5 Billion

people can rally all they want. reality is, we're global and people want to live here. the bubble can burst 50%, all that means is vancouver is on sale and people will rush in to scoop up properties driving costs up even higher.

do people know that housing dipped 25% here in 2008 and again in 2012? funny how that didn't make a lot of news. well it did and look where we're at today. a west side home in Vancouver now averages $2.4million. a 50% correction would still put it at over 1.2mil. Is that any better??
It's all paper wealth anyway.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Jebby

Where does that "scholarly research" back up either of these two claims you made:

1) That conservatives and capitalists hate the poor.
2) Vancouver's housing stock is being "commanded" by foreign investers with high 8-figure anual incomes.

Here's some research. I thought this was all just common knowledge.

And what my colleagues and I for the last seven years have been doing is studying the effects of these kinds of hierarchies. What we've been finding across dozens of studies and thousands of participants across this country is that as a person's levels of wealth increase, their feelings of compassion and empathy go down, and their feelings of entitlement, of deservingness, and their ideology of self-interest increases. In surveys, we found that it's actually wealthier individuals who are more likely to moralize greed being good, and that the pursuit of self-interest is favorable and moral.

http://www.ted.com/talks/paul_piff_d...pt?language=en

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by Jebby

Where does that "scholarly research" back up either of these two claims you made: 1) That conservatives and capitalists hate the poor. 2) Vancouver's housing stock is being "commanded" by foreign investers with high 8-figure anual incomes.

As I read your quotes above I realize that you're not a good reader. I never made any link about the furnished Vancouver Sun article having any connection with conservatives and capitalists "hating" the poor". That was my independent scholarly input gleaned from the economic history of Europe and North America!

If you have trouble fathoming my assertion how then do you explain the distaste for "communism" which is really government by the ordinary worker/the poor (by the moneyed elite)?

The issue of capitalism fostering government being by/for/of the wealthy goes back to ancient Greece and the debates by Plato and more so Pericles.

It is the French revolution and Jean Jacques Rousseau who first raised the possibility of a practical alternative to such a pro wealthy structure of government. But I digress.......

Let's stick to the narrow subject of the article in question where the UBC students showed (via the article) that Vancouver's house price index was next highest to Hong Kong's (in the world) and ahead of Singapore's; with both Asian cities having much stronger domestic economies and numerous home grown wealthy housing investors vis-a-vis relatively impoverished Vancouver which is NOT a corporate head office town and doesn't have any local economic strength to justify having million dollar starter homes on the market!

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Here's some research. I thought this was all just common knowledge.

http://www.ted.com/talks/paul_piff_d...pt?language=en

dreambrother808, thanks for your common sense social psychological contribution to the discussion at hand. A sound/multidisciplinary university education is key!

[st7860]

You're assuming that things in Asian cities are connected to Vancouver.

[logan5]

The liberal elite is in the house!

I hope you're not suggesting a multidisciplinary education is necessary to form an educated opinion on something.

Wait a second... are you James Franco?
http://www.quora.com/How-did-James-F...in-one-quarter

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by st7860

You're assuming that things in Asian cities are connected to Vancouver.

I assume nothing! Even the first link's article from my own country (the U.S.) shown below, points out the obvious disparity between Vancouver's median income of $71,000 (Canadian dollars) and that city's average house price in excess of a million dollars. Go figure what drives such prices given a RELATIVELY weak domestic economy!!
http://www.seattlemag.com/article/ho...-neighborhoods

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/...ticle13465110/

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/0...0H60A620140911

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/08...n_5718705.html

http://news.nationalpost.com/homes/b...chinese-buyers

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by logan5

The liberal elite is in the house!

I hope you're not suggesting a multidisciplinary education is necessary to form an educated opinion on something. Wait a second... are you James Franco?
http://www.quora.com/How-did-James-F...in-one-quarter

.....and there I go thinking that my Canadians neighbors are ALL more enlightened than their American neighbors (who are steeped in U.S. cultural exceptionalism/jingoism etc.)......!

[st7860]

I don't understand how a few people buying stuff including property means the economy is weak

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by st7860

I don't understand how a few people buying stuff including property means the economy is weak

The economy is (RELATIVELY) "weak" in terms of not being able to internally fuel demand for million dollar homes given low/average median or average incomes locally!

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Here's some research. I thought this was all just common knowledge.

http://www.ted.com/talks/paul_piff_d...pt?language=en

Where does that say anything about conservatives and capitalists hating the poor?

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by Jebby

Where does that say anything about conservatives and capitalists hating the poor?

.....who says that the article says anything about conservatives and capitalists directly "hating" the poor per se??

This particular article gleaned a social psychological explanation as to how the wealthy justify their own "success" in simplistic/narrow ways and the resulting insensitivity shown to others in general (even other "rich people") given an extreme culture of individualism/self greed!

In other words, the article attempts to employ a social psychological approach to support what is called in history "Social Darwinism" (an example of the critical multidisciplinary approach I mentioned above)!

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by NetMapel

So Vancitybuzz just published this new article that contains a heat map using census data on the dominant immigrant group as per area.

http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2015/05/i...tro-vancouver/



Seems like some of the most expensive areas such as Kits, City of West Vancouver, North Vancouver... etc are all dominated by non-Chinese. More specifically, those areas' dominant immigrant seems to be from UK or Iran. Very interesting to see considering the flurry of articles in recent times about the big bad Chinese foreign investors buying up all these expensive houses. However, census data seems to suggests otherwise ? While Chinese do dominate in most other areas north of Fraser river, the truly most expensive areas don't seem to be dominated by the Chinese. What do you guys say about this ?

I REALLY, REALLY hate these maps. They can be so deceptive. Looking at the map ( prepared by the real estate industry, remember ) it makes it look like Chinese dominate all housing in Vancouver. HOWEVER, the article plainly states:

According to the 2011 Census, there are 159,200 people living in Metro Vancouver born in China, 111,265 born in India, 87,945 from Philippines, 72,230 from Hong Kong and 61,255 born in the United Kingdom.

emphasis mine

The population of Metro Vancouver was 2,476,145 in the 2011 census. Assuming these numbers are correct, immigrants make up 6.4% of the population.

OF those new immigrants, how many are actually buying houses? Of those houses, how many are million-dollar homes? The reality... real estate, even in Vancouver, is local. Sure, super rich foreign buyers make headlines when they have black hair and eyes, wide noses and buy the odd mega-house in Vancouver... but they don't move the needle in the market as a whole.

Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt reign supreme in Vancouver Real estate.

Cheap money has done more than ANYTHING to make housing unaffordable... and consumers have taken on record levels of debt to buy into the scheme.

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

I REALLY, REALLY hate these maps. They can be so deceptive. Looking at the map ( prepared by the real estate industry, remember ) it makes it look like Chinese dominate all housing in Vancouver. HOWEVER, the article plainly states:
emphasis mine
The population of Metro Vancouver was 2,476,145 in the 2011 census. Assuming these numbers are correct, immigrants make up 6.4% of the population.
OF those new immigrants, how many are actually buying houses? Of those houses, how many are million-dollar homes? The reality... real estate, even in Vancouver, is local. Sure, super rich foreign buyers make headlines when they have black hair and eyes, wide noses and buy the odd mega-house in Vancouver... but they don't move the needle in the market as a whole.
Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt reign supreme in Vancouver Real estate.
Cheap money has done more than ANYTHING to make housing unaffordable... and consumers have taken on record levels of debt to buy into the scheme.

twoNeurons, I'm not so sure that money is "cheaper" or easier to get in Canada/Vancouver versus here in the U.S. where house prices are on average lower than those in Canada/Vancouver etc.. Plus Canadian banks do have an image of being more stringent than American banks in terms of granting home loans/mortgages.

I'll say this though....(new) detached houses are not being built at a substantial rate across the metro Vancouver region hence such desired (bungalow) houses are going to see a rapid escalation in price (a classic case of effective under supply versus effective over demand)!

Such escalating prices on (single family residences) thus seem to have a direct/indirect domino effect on such alternative housing as town houses and condominiums as decreasingly higher end properties face increasing demand/acquisition: with such push fueling demand towards what was once less pricey/less desirable down market housing!

[urbancanadian]

Before this thread gets hijacked by st7860, I'll post my thoughts, which I wrote last night but forgot to post so appologies for any repeated points.

I'm very much in favour of finding ways to make the housing market more affordable (obviously), but I feel that a lot of the debate has been misdirected. Too much of the focus seems to be on single family homes (in the COV) and wanting to somehow bring those prices down to where townhomes are currently, or even lower. The way I see it, there are just too many factors preventing this from even remotely happening:

• The demand is very high. Whether it's from investors, foreign buyers, or (for the most part) local residents, SFHs continue to be very attractive. North Americans are just used to living that way, and most others come from places where that type of housing is not very common.
• The supply is not increasing - it's actually slowly decreasing. Obviously there is no more room for SFHs in Vancouver, and as the population continues to grow steadily, more will continue to be replaced by higher density housing types. The last few decades saw the majority of development in former industrial areas and other brownfield sites. Now that those are becoming scarce, development is beginning to creep into established neighbourhoods.
• The above is/will further be exacerbated by the continued slowing of SFH development in the suburbs. The only remaining cities building any substantial detached housing are Coquitlam, Maple Ridge, Surrey, and Langley. But each of these are inching closer to the Urban Containment Boundary, and when they do, there will be no more room for expansion/sprawl.

I think some of the strongest evidence of this lies in the increasing disparity between attached and detached housing prices. For example, over the last number of years, condo prices have remained relatively flat, as construction has roughly kept pace with population growth. The number of people moving here has started to increase of late, and along with it new condo builds.

The two metros in Canada where there are significant legislated restrictions on outward growth are Vancouver and Toronto. These also happen to be the cities where you see the most stark appreciation of SFH prices, especially in relation to the other options.

When it comes to starting a new family and raising kids, I understand the desire for more space. I personally don't think though, that it requires a detached home. If most of the world, outside from Australia/NZ and North America, can make it work then I see no reason why we can't too. I see the need for a small societal shift where it is perfectly acceptable for a family to live in higher-density housing.

But that is one of the problems - we don't build enough of the right forms of housing for everyone. Too much emphasis is put on either condos or houses. I think we need to start massively increasing (potential) supply of townhomes, rowhomes, etc. in addition to condos/apartments.

So like I said, I think the people raising their voices (which is great) such as the #donthave1million cause, need to direct their attention further than mostly Single Family Homes. At this latest rally, I noticed more emphasis on making sure the government actually keeps track and provides real data on the market. It's a start.

Of course there are other factors, but this wasn't supposed to be an essay so I'll end it there. Just my point of view.

[st7860]

The rally is comprised mostly of people that mostly think everyone is entitled to a discount house for purchase, not only for rent

http://www.news1130.com/2015/05/25/s...ing-architect/
"Some people have sense of entitlement when it comes to Vancouver housing"

[st7860]

Housing in Vancouver is fine the way it is. Citizens with a child but not a high income can get monthly assistance with their housing costs from the Province. This is not welfare and does not require lining up in a queue for special housing.

Many people do not know that 35 year amortizations are still available with a conventional down payment, making monthly paymen

There is a correct balance of various types of housing in Vancouver. Rightly so, the primary interst is single family homes, as some people prefer to have 2.2 kids and a dog in a yard, while others do not care. Quantities are increasing, especially other areas of Metro Vancouver where situations arise that cause 2 homes to be torn down and become three single family homes. A substantial part of the buying is from local investors as low down payment mortgages are now limited to 1 million in Canada.

Leased apartments have stayed at mostly the same prices whereas normal freehold units, especially newer ones, have increased.

In Vancouver itself, single family homes are increasing, in the form of laneway houses. Its a recent thing, in where you share only a piece of land with someone else, but do not share walls, electricity bills, entrances, bathrooms, etc.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by st7860

The rally is comprised mostly of people that mostly think everyone is entitled to a discount house for purchase, not only for rent

http://www.news1130.com/2015/05/25/s...ing-architect/
"Some people have sense of entitlement when it comes to Vancouver housing"

I'm not so sure about Michael Geller anymore... These protests are completely warranted when you consider that the CoV is building almost exclusively condo's and all but ignoring other housing options such as row-house and stacked townhouse. There are a few areas designated row-house and townhouse, but it's not nearly enough. People expecting family sized housing that costs well under a million dollars is reasonable and easily achievable if proper planning was implemented. This lack of a new housing product is driving up the costs of existing housing at a disproportionate rate, and is likely allowing developers to jack up the price for condo's in the City of Vancouver.

[st7860]

Well in the future there will be more activity at Kingsway and Slocan. Dozens of homes there are asking quite a lot for a relatively tame area(a million for a really gross teardown!), as the area will be upzoned soon.