Vancouver, "Seriously Unaffordable"

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by vansky

Average people I suggest is the middle portion of our middle class, and the upper portion of our working class. For this portion represents most of the population, and does most of the labour and brain work. When you look at it, this is the population that produces the most, and sadly not getting the most.

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, of course. I should have been able to figure that one out for myself.

And you're right; not only is the middle class and upper working class not getting a fair shake, but they (and I'm one of 'em) are being squeezed out of existence, not only in Canada, but many if not most Western economies, so that Canada will perhaps one day, on a socio-economic level, resemble countries like Brazil, where there is, in effect, no middle class, just a large elite wealthy class, and a MUCH larger class of working poor, which can include university grads and people who have invested hard in their careers, only to wind up with near-minimum-wage incomes.

This, needless to say, will impact heavily on the lifestyles of people everywhere, not the least of which is Vancouver, a coveted place to live, particularly the central parts thereof, and about which the larger part of this Forum is dedicated.

Somethin's a-comin', and I don't like what I see or hear.

[AlexYVR]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

And you're right; not only is the middle class and upper working class not getting a fair shake, but they (and I'm one of 'em) are being squeezed out of existence, not only in Canada, but many if not most Western economies, so that Canada will perhaps one day, on a socio-economic level, resemble countries like Brazil, where there is, in effect, no middle class, just a large elite wealthy class, and a MUCH larger class of working poor, which can include university grads and people who have invested hard in their careers, only to wind up with near-minimum-wage incomes.


Somethin's a-comin', and I don't like what I see or hear.

I would venture to say that a lot of peoples' definitions of 'rich' vs 'poor' are predicated on whether people can afford to own or not. I know that socially we're pushed into ownership by the government, rental laws, tax breaks, etc etc - but if you're willing to rent like so many thousands of others, your available income is much larger and if you don't factor in mortgage payments, all of a sudden Vancouver becomes 'affordable' again.

I could write (and have written) an essay on the topic of the disappearing middle class - anyone who took a 300-level urban studies seminar in university has probably done so - but I'll say that I don't believe it's true. I'd say our old definition of 'middle class' is being updated whether we like it or not to include the creative class of gentrifiers who can't necessarily afford to own but are wealthy in other ways - university degrees, knowledge, flexibility regarding the job market, social capital.

These people, along with new arrivals who are the exact opposite - wealthy in cash but poor in social development opportunities, interaction, political clout, job flexibility, etc - make up the 'middle class' of Vancouver. It's no longer loggers and machinists who have a stable union income and 2.5 kids, as those jobs are gone from Vancouver and, let's face it, will probably not be returning. THAT middle class is dead, but I don't see the polarization of wealth occuring here that occurs in Brazil or other 3rd world countries. Education is still too affordable to the masses for that to happen, and increasingly, education and knowledge is what drives job creation today.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by AlexYVR

I would venture to say that a lot of peoples' definitions of 'rich' vs 'poor' are predicated on whether people can afford to own or not. I know that socially we're pushed into ownership by the government, rental laws, tax breaks, etc etc - but if you're willing to rent like so many thousands of others, your available income is much larger and if you don't factor in mortgage payments, all of a sudden Vancouver becomes 'affordable' again.

I could write (and have written) an essay on the topic of the disappearing middle class - anyone who took a 300-level urban studies seminar in university has probably done so - but I'll say that I don't believe it's true. I'd say our old definition of 'middle class' is being updated whether we like it or not to include the creative class of gentrifiers who can't necessarily afford to own but are wealthy in other ways - university degrees, knowledge, flexibility regarding the job market, social capital.

That seems to support his point... not wealthy financially, but wealthy in knowledge...

I find it ironic that when the "new world" was founded, it started with the premise of equality, getting away from the idea of wealthy landowners and lowly serfs. We could find ourselves going back towards such a system. There is a certain similarity, at least.

but I don't see the polarization of wealth occuring here that occurs in Brazil or other 3rd world countries. Education is still too affordable to the masses for that to happen, and increasingly, education and knowledge is what drives job creation today.

"yet"
Education doesn't seem to be going down in a proportion to income. I always wonder how Japan was able to maintain its egalitarian system for so long.

[delboy]

Originally Posted by AlexYVR

I hate to tell you all but if you have time to be on this board talking about something as bourgeoisie as view cones, I'm guessing you're OK paying rent for next month. Maybe with several exceptions, we ARE 'the rich'/'the virus'/'consumer culture'/etc etc. I will say once again, if you really want to live here, you can afford to live here.

Maybe if you decide you need 2 kids, a leased BMW, something over 1,500 sq ft with an outdoor space, Miehle appliances, and a golf cart for the weekends, you're screwed. When it comes time for me to have kids, a serious consideration will be whether I can afford to live in the places that I want to live while I have them. Life is full of trade-offs. Talking about 'taking down' the rich isn't going to help Vancouver, or you.

EDIT: er, not you specifically, SpongeG. . .just quoted the last person on the topic.

I don't think it's just 1500 sq foot places that people are struggling to buy, but places even smaller. At an average of around 600 a square foot and dismally low wages in Vancouver, even a decent one bed is a struggle. Demographia now puts Vancouver above London for poor affordability which is truly astonishing: http://www.demographia.com/dhi-ix2005q3.pdf

This city keeps defying logic when it comes to re. Many of those on here under 30 have a very different perspective on the market than those of us who are, well let's say a little more mature and have experienced real ups and downs and not just ups.

Life is about choices but in the Vancouver market, the ability to choose is becoming increasingly muted.

[SpongeG]

i'm talking real estate

when a duplex in east van costs $650,000++ thats something the average person cannot afford - or maybe they can i don't know - i have friends who have decent jobs and the pre-approved mortage they got was $135,000 one only can get $90,000 its ridiculous - there is nothing in the city even the burbs at those prices

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by vansky

if we understood why, we can change it, and make ppl do what we want them to do. that is the power that will change things...we can advertise vancouver, or we can destroy its reputation, right now we need to spread the dark side of things, and reverse the whole perception, for the sake of the great middle class who can once again afford stuff. and bring the elites down to justice, the hidden virus of the capitalist system...

What are you? Communist?

[vansky]

Originally Posted by Canadian Mind

What are you? Communist?

we might never be capitalists, but we might all be communists. espeically when a gap is widening...say if u earn 50k before, and now only 70%...even if its' not u, then it's ur opponent "class", who sees u and sees unfairness...now the huge middle class earns similar levels of income, wait till that dies...and my folks already have hostile attitude toward the rich who drove up the real estate price, pretty deadly attitude even to the same country of birth...

imagine "the great working class" of the future, they won't start a revolution when there's no condition, but when there's a condition, it's inevitable.

[AlexYVR]

Why do people feel the need to buy?

I mean, it's an obvious answer. We're told we should all our lives. We're told that it increases security, that our equity is in our homes, etc. etc. - but if we step outside of the paradigm for a second, Vancouver is eminently livable for a renter.

No, there's no way I can afford to buy a condo in this town right now. However, I can afford to live in a large, hard-wood-and-tile one bedroom, send myself to school, and still go out with friends/save a little - because I rent. This isn't bragging as I'm guessing I make a lot less than most of you.

Life is about choices and you're right. A lot of people don't have the option to buy in Vancouver. They do, however, have the option of seeing Vancouver as a beautiful, perfectly livable and affordable place. . .given they make a choice about equity.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by quobobo

^^ Yep, always those foreigners.

(if I could roll my eyes at you through the internet, I would)

Certainly the average Vancouverite, with the average salary of $45k, isn't making enough to justify current real estate prices. Vancouver, with few head offices or industries, should not be commanding these high prices. By eliminating homegrown justification for sky-high real estate prices, one can only be forced to look to external influences.

BTW, the info was from Alex Tsakumis' column in 24 hrs:
...The current "hot" market is grotesquely overvalued and hardly real, because it is being entirely driven by offshore Asian money, predominantly from Mainland China.

It's fact. One realtor recently told me that she was chastised by her office manager for saying so, because it was (here's that convenient theme again) racist.

For the love of God, when that investment money starts to dry up, what happens to your "solid" investment then?...
http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/Columnists...47476-sun.html

[Zassk]

Hmm. Head offices or no head offices, it's a fact that people want to live in Vancouver, and this drives demand up, whether from people from China or other parts of the world. Regardless of economy, people will still prefer to live in Vancouver than (say) Winnipeg or St. Louis or somewhere else. Vancouver's desirability isn't going to change overnight just because of changing economic fortunes. Its price will always be higher than other cities.

[djmk]

I was thinking.....

maybe part of the reason why its soooo expensive in Metro Vancouver is because there is no real competition in the province.

there is 4 million people in this province and more than 1/2 live in this region. Sure, there are other regions like Victoria and the Okanagan, but there is only one major city. Alberta has Calgary and Edmonton. Ontario has Toronto, Ottawa, Missassauga. Quebec has Montreal, Quebec City and Gatineau. Metro Vancouver is the only real center for commerce in BC.

maybe what this province needs is another big city?

just a thought

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Hmm. Head offices or no head offices, it's a fact that people want to live in Vancouver, and this drives demand up, whether from people from China or other parts of the world. Regardless of economy, people will still prefer to live in Vancouver than (say) Winnipeg or St. Louis or somewhere else. Vancouver's desirability isn't going to change overnight just because of changing economic fortunes. Its price will always be higher than other cities.

didn't they say that about miami and las vegas though?

I think we are in for a rude awakening - once the next hot city comes along investors dump and move on

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by djmk

I was thinking.....

maybe part of the reason why its soooo expensive in Metro Vancouver is because there is no real competition in the province.

there is 4 million people in this province and more than 1/2 live in this region. Sure, there are other regions like Victoria and the Okanagan, but there is only one major city. Alberta has Calgary and Edmonton. Ontario has Toronto, Ottawa, Missassauga. Quebec has Montreal, Quebec City and Gatineau. Metro Vancouver is the only real center for commerce in BC.

maybe what this province needs is another big city?

just a thought

Surrey is to Vancouver what Missassauga is to Toronto, as Victoria and Kelowna are both to Vancouver what Ottawa and Hamilton are to Toronto.

I get your point, but I don't agree with it. Edmonton and Calgary are about equal in clout in Alberta and prices are sky-high there too.

Bad comparisons overall.

[delboy]

Originally Posted by AlexYVR

Why do people feel the need to buy?

I mean, it's an obvious answer. We're told we should all our lives. We're told that it increases security, that our equity is in our homes, etc. etc. - but if we step outside of the paradigm for a second, Vancouver is eminently livable for a renter.

No, there's no way I can afford to buy a condo in this town right now. However, I can afford to live in a large, hard-wood-and-tile one bedroom, send myself to school, and still go out with friends/save a little - because I rent. This isn't bragging as I'm guessing I make a lot less than most of you.

Life is about choices and you're right. A lot of people don't have the option to buy in Vancouver. They do, however, have the option of seeing Vancouver as a beautiful, perfectly livable and affordable place. . .given they make a choice about equity.

I agree - actually renting is reasonable here i find. Just that I don't it's really a choice for many.

[SpongeG]

with renting you can always invest in things like RRSP's or whatever - you usually have a little more money to do that sort of tyhing with if you are renting - you don't have to pay for repairs or problems etc too and you can choose where you want to live

[LotusLand]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

didn't they say that about miami and las vegas though?

I think we are in for a rude awakening - once the next hot city comes along investors dump and move on

Actually Miami has been hot since the 80's as has Vegas and the decline has more to do with the city planning and general urban decay. Vegas is a cesspool and liveability is not its strong point. Miami is also pretty gritty and dirty. It too is not liveable. Vancouver has also been popular since around the time of expo, but it has way more to offer to families (who can afford it) because its safer. It also is a hub for outdoor enthusiasts, recreation etc...

I can see the comparisons you're trying to make but its still apples and oranges. Miami is probably a better comparison than Vegas though.

[SpongeG]

i'm not trying to compare just real estate markets can be fickle and i think investors will jump ship at some point

anyway you still need real people to buy and if they can't afford it it can't be good

[whatnext]

A new study ranks Vancouver as the "most unaffordable housing market in the world":

...Vancouver is number one but it's not exactly the best list to top. A report by the Frontier Centre for Public Policy shows Vancouver has the most unaffordable housing market in the world.

The Centre's Wendell Cox says Vancouver gets a 9.3 on the index, a figure suggesting the average house sells for more than nine times the average annual salary. "The numbers are very clear on it. Vancouver is exceedingly expensive and marginally more expensive than Sydney, Australia which is the second most expensive market in the six nations we looked at..."
http://www.news1130.com/news/local/a...t-in-the-world

[Yume-sama]

I could think of a dozen cities that are more expensive, off the top of my head.

And how is only looking at 6 Countries representative of the entire World?

Let's just all move to the wonderland of Detroit as the article suggests

[Rusty Gull]

Long term, I think it's fair to say that Vancouver will track San Francisco/ Bay Area. Which is to say that even when San Francisco is cheap, it's still ridiculously expensive.

If the BC economy tanks, and no doubt one day in the long-term future it will, there will be some return to normalcy. But as long as the housing market butts up against the Agricultural Land Reserve, supply will remain in short supply.