Vancouver and the Underground Pedestrian System

[Locked In]

Originally Posted by deasine

I haven't actually been to Montreal or any underground pedestrian system... so I really don't know what it's like... is it like a mall? or is it just a bare corridor? pictures? =P too lazy to google.

TO's PATH is considered the world's largest underground shopping complex (at 27 km of pedestrian tunnels). It's mainly smaller malls and food courts in the basements of office towers, connected by tunnels lined with retail. Office tower lobbies, larger malls (such as the Eaton Centre), subway stations, and other attractions such as the Convention Centre, concert halls, and stadiums (sort-of) are connected as well. I haven't been in Montreal's much, but I gather it's very similar. I personally find the way-finding signage to be a bit lacking, and it can be confusing until you know your route well (I suspect that minimal signage directing people to neighboring buildings is not unintentional on the part of building owners...).

This is a pretty typical section of PATH in Toronto:


Source: Wikipedia: PATH (Toronto)

[metroXpress]

^ That's a great pic that reminds me of the time I was there. I still think that we need something like that despite the fact that are climate is warmer than the rest of the country. Like MrX2 said, we need a bigger Pacific Centre. It is simply not enough just for us locals. I can't even imagine how it will be like when the Canada Line is opened and that Pacific Centre has an entrance. God....don't want to think about the tourists.

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by deasine

I haven't actually been to Montreal or any underground pedestrian system... so I really don't know what it's like... is it like a mall? or is it just a bare corridor? pictures? =P too lazy to google.

almost exactly the same as the interior of a mall in Toronto's PATH network... Just a little less spacious, but just as many skylights.

[wrenegade]

I think a large scale expansion on what we have is unnecessary. Our winter can be wet, but it really not that bad. It's not freezing cold with piles of snow like Toronto or Calgary. Our portions from Royal Centre-Bentall Centre, Vancouver/PC/the Bay and the area on the Waterfront are fine. The only thing I would like to see is expansion from the Bay to whatever building replaces the Bay Parkade (essentially replacing the current walkway, but underground).

Oh, but a fantasy of mine is to see the Canada Post building knocked down, a massive 1 or 2 tower (250+ metres) building built there with a skytrain station and underground connection to Library Square.

[osirisboy]

Originally Posted by Locked In

TO's PATH is considered the world's largest underground shopping complex (at 27 km of pedestrian tunnels). It's mainly smaller malls and food courts in the basements of office towers, connected by tunnels lined with retail. Office tower lobbies, larger malls (such as the Eaton Centre), subway stations, and other attractions such as the Convention Centre, concert halls, and stadiums (sort-of) are connected as well. I haven't been in Montreal's much, but I gather it's very similar. I personally find the way-finding signage to be a bit lacking, and it can be confusing until you know your route well (I suspect that minimal signage directing people to neighboring buildings is not unintentional on the part of building owners...

montreal has 32KM of pedestrian tunnels and is considered the largest in the world

[flight_from_kamakura]

this would be a pretty bad idea for vancouver. montreal's system was mostly built at a time when building these sorts of things was a lot cheaper. also, with the weather, it makes more sense in montreal, and yeah, it's not even that great there. rather than this, vancouver should invest in awnings and more covered streets. also, some proper bus shelters and enclosed metro stations would be a big move forward.

[Coldrsx]

Personally I dislike U/G (tor/mtl) or +15 (calgary/Edmonton) systems for while they are convenient on certain days like today (-26), they do nothing but ruin potential street life most of the time.

[osirisboy]

agreed^^

[officedweller]

I think the City of Vancouver has a policy against underground pedestrian connections.
And remember back on the early 1990s the City killed Trilea's proposed downtown mall north of The Bay (would have been anchored by Woodoward's). Trilea had purchased all of the lots on the two blocks north of The Bay (except CIBC) - but after the rezoning wasn't granted (the City didn't want more enclosed mall space downtown) - the lots were sold off piecemeal - resulting in BCIT, SFU Graduate School, Gotham, ST. Regis, Hudson, Bower Building II, etc.

[Locked In]

Originally Posted by osirisboy

montreal has 32KM of pedestrian tunnels and is considered the largest in the world

Apparently, Toronto's PATH, at 27 km, is considered by Guiness Records to be largest underground shopping complex in the world. At 32 km, Montreal's RESO is the world's largest underground complex in the world. But I'm getting all my info from wikipedia, so take it with a grain of salt. In any case, I'm just glad Vancouver isn't (and won't ever be) a contender. I'd rather copy cities with climates similar to our own, and (as flight_from_kamakura mentioned) have more awnings, and perhaps one or two covered shopping streets.

[twoNeurons]

I'd be really for a canopy over a few streets. Sure, there are "hard-core" Vancouverites who think Fleece and Gore-Tex is high-fashion, but many residents would prefer the semi-outdoors feel of a canopy street.

Main shopping streets should have continuous awnings in a city like Vancouver.

At the very least, awnings should be extended to the width of the sidewalk on Robson.

Also, Granville st. All those people waiting in line outside of clubs at night. Dressed up but getting rained on.

The underground systems are meant to protect from the cold. Vancouver just needs to protect from the rain.

[mr.x]

^ unfortunately, any change would be difficult....i'm sure you might remember all the opposition from the clam shell glass roof over Robson Square.

[vanlaw]

Originally Posted by officedweller

I think the City of Vancouver has a policy against underground pedestrian connections.
And remember back on the early 1990s the City killed Trilea's proposed downtown mall north of The Bay (would have been anchored by Woodoward's). Trilea had purchased all of the lots on the two blocks north of The Bay (except CIBC) - but after the rezoning wasn't granted (the City didn't want more enclosed mall space downtown) - the lots were sold off piecemeal - resulting in BCIT, SFU Graduate School, Gotham, ST. Regis, Hudson, Bower Building II, etc.

Not sure what the mall proposal was, but the result of the non-rezoning is pretty good. BCIT added a lot of life to that area, and the rest are great additions as well.

[officedweller]

The proposal was for a Pacific Centre-like complex - mall with office above and Woodward's at the north end - but the City blocked it.

[SpongeG]

too bad woodwards died itself

[NetMapel]

I dislike how single-layered Vancouver is. There is no dimension in this city. Everything is at grade because everybody is so afraid they might destroy the scenery or whatever otherwise.

[Lee_Haber8]

As someone who lives in Montreal and has traveled through the underground city, I would say underground pedestrian networks are overrated. For short stretches on cold days it is useful, but if you plan on traveling any substantial distance, you end up taking a circuitous, disorienting path that often involves climbing and descending several levels. It ends up taking way longer than just going outside and walking.

I wouldn't say underground pedestrian networks by themselves kill street traffic, but they certainly encourage developers to build inwardly instead of outwardly - and I think that is what kills pedestrian traffic. I also find there's just something artificial and inauthentic about an underground mall as opposed to an outdoor retail streetscape

[Metro-One]

I dislike how single-layered Vancouver is. There is no dimension in this city. Everything is at grade because everybody is so afraid they might destroy the scenery or whatever otherwise.

I agree with this, again i feel Vancouver does not realize the size it is becoming. Also i agree that we do need more awnings, i hate walking down Robson in the winter and getting soaked.

That being said we do not need a gigantic underground network, in fact what Jlousa said is exactly what i believe this city needs. As some of you may remember i am still scratching my head at why the C-line Granville station and the E/M line Granville station do not have a proper transfer underground, hence creating a Japanese style transit/mall shopping hub. (Anyone who has been on an Asian subway knows how amazing and lively the underground can become. I remember in Japan the underground in some areas had to be 4 or 5 floors thick!)

Having layers adds interest to a city, it becomes more to discover and feels more diverse. And yes Vancouver is not the tropics, currently it is March and there is snow on the ground in many areas. Metropolis in Metrotown is always packed during the winter, simply because it is a climate controlled shopping hub with good connections to transit.

Having a small network would not kill the street life, for on a nice sunny summer afternoon why would you want to be underground? (unless you are just doing a quick transfer on the train)

Again Jlousa hit the nail on the head, and this is why i do not like Vancouver councils stubborn policies, they seem to only view development in black and white. (and the funny thing is the "clam shell" was the closest proposal we have had to a proper street level year round facility and it was shot down)

Don't think we need an underground link for the reasons mentioned above, the only section I would like added is the one block between pacific centre and sinclair centre. With that one short block added you'd be able to walk from Granville and Robson all the to the new convention centre, connecting 2 Canada Line stations, 2 Expo lines, 4 shopping centres and both convention centres.

I love it, wish we had that!

[Distill3d]

what Vancouver needs is something like this over Granville or Robson...or both:



(source: HM USA Travel Guide)

[twoNeurons]

One can dream... can't they. However, the only concern I would have with a completely covered glass atrium is that the particulate from vehicles would dirty up that glass pretty quickly.

I can see it on Granville, but on Robson, I wonder if they would have to make a it trolley bus/pedestrian only.