Demographics and Vision for Vancouver

[Locked In]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

Off course it is. To's downtown is WAY more lively than Vancouver. He must not have gone out much when he lived there. Or he lived there in the 50's when oddly enough Van's nightlife rivalled anything in Canada (except Montreal).

I think that statement should be qualified a bit. At night, TO's entertainment district is definitely more lively than Vancouver's (and bigger). However, huge parts of the downtown are dead. Dundas Square is a tomb unless there is an event. The CBD (which is relatively huge compared to Van's) is absolutely deserted. Yonge street between Dundas and Bloore could be considered lively in the seedy way that parts of Granville are. In my experience, most people don't linger there...

Overall, I think Vancouver's downtown stacks up really well to Toronto's, and TO is a much larger city. And it's mainly due to how many people there are living downtown. And when that many people live adjacent to entertainment and cultural attractions, there have to be compromises. There are lots of areas the city could and should improve in - live music, outdoor events, etc. But to deny downtown dwellers any right to live in a peaceful residence is absurd.

[LotusLand]

Originally Posted by Locked In

I think that statement should be qualified a bit. At night, TO's entertainment district is definitely more lively than Vancouver's (and bigger). However, huge parts of the downtown are dead. Dundas Square is a tomb unless there is an event. The CBD (which is relatively huge compared to Van's) is absolutely deserted. Yonge street between Dundas and Bloore could be considered lively in the seedy way that parts of Granville are. In my experience, most people don't linger there...

Overall, I think Vancouver's downtown stacks up really well to Toronto's, and TO is a much larger city. And it's mainly due to how many people there are living downtown. And when that many people live adjacent to entertainment and cultural attractions, there have to be compromises. There are lots of area the city could and should improve in - live music, outdoor events, etc. But to deny downtown dwellers any right to live in a peaceful residence is absurd.

Thanks for the support, that's what I was getting at. Obviously T.O. has its hot spots just like any city. By sheer population alone they would have more going on. However, take a step back and you'll notice that we rival T.O. very well. We don't touch Montreal, that is our Vegas lol.

And by the way I'm 27 so I don't know anything about the 50's. I worked in the CBD and let me tell you ours has much more action after work hours then they do. Ask anybody that works there and works in our CBD and they'll tell you the same (unless they are Vancouver haters of course then they'll say things about how are Mountains aren't really that big).

Like I said before, we can and are always improving our city. It just can't happen at the flick of switch like some of you (who don't even live downtown) would like to see happen.

[ckkelley]

I live downtown and I like it just the way that it is. I could do with less homelessness of course and the littering as well I suppose. Oh, and I guess we've got the "general hooliganism" under control.

I do believe we're talking about one of the world's great urban experiences here? No?

[SpongeG]

I must say yaletown at night is completely different to nighttime

during teh day i find it sleepy and dull but at night the restaurants get packed and lots of action goes on down there

[LotusLand]

Originally Posted by ckkelley

I live downtown and I like it just the way that it is. I could do with less homelessness of course and the littering as well I suppose. Oh, and I guess we've got the "general hooliganism" under control.

I do believe we're talking about one of the world's great urban experiences here? No?

Definitely, Downtown Vancouver has one of the best urban experiences out there, most of which can be done by foot. There is just so much to do

[Distill3d]

Most of the night life in Calgary is not downtown. Calgary's downtown is a ghost town after 10pm most nights. sure there are some clubs and restaurants along Stephen Avenue, but the rest of the scene is on 17 Avenue, and that isn't downtown. Calgaryians just know how to celebrate, and don't make any excuses about that fact.

both LotusLand and Raggedy are right in saying it doesn't make much sense to compare the two. Vancouver does have its suburbs to compete with, though from what i'm experienced, that doesn't take much. this whole region seems to have missed the train when it comes to being lively. seriously, New Westminster has Columbia Street, which is a bit of an entertainment district, and it does get busy. Burnaby is just as confused about its identity as Lyndsey Lohan is with her sexuality. Surrey has a highway running through its spacious attempt at a downtown, which prevents it from being "lively". North Vancouver, despite having Central Lonsdale as a potentially trendy zone, may as well be senior city with its NIMBY attitude.

don't get me wrong, i moved here because its a beautiful city, but beauty is only skin deep!

[s211]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

What they pull off for Stampede could/would never even be ATTEMPTED here.

And for good reason; they can keep that dreary hickfest clear of Vancouver thank you very much.

[Distill3d]

Originally Posted by s211

And for good reason; they can keep that dreary hickfest clear of Vancouver thank you very much.

i can tell you've never been to the Stampede before.

Vancouver needs something like the Stampede. god knows the PNE doesn't come anywhere close to it.

[cornholio]

Downtown Vancouver at night is a dump, its bland, its boring, its dull, its dead...I think that sums up my view point of downtown Vancouver at night, but then again at night I dont think I have ventured down there in well over a year and I live a 15min cab ride away. I have been to plenty of places and Vancouver has simply the worst nightlife out of all of them, hell theres plenty of cities in the 10,000 range that I have been to that have had a better night life. Having said that Vancouver defenitly is a nice downtown to experience during the day time, but at night thats just not the case. At night its so dull that its sickening, not exaggerating here. Having said that from my experience Canada in general is dull place for nightlife in all its cities but Vancouver takes the cake as the dullest.

[vid]

Teens-30, Quiet downtown. Simply because I would love to see such a contradiction.

[nova9]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

Your absolutely right. Classic attempt to fudge the figures (another Vancouver pastime). Calgary doesn't really have any significant municipalities like we do here. The physical size of Calgary is about equal to the whole GVRD not JUST Vancouver. So you have to compare apples to apples. As for office space and therefore jobs there's always the old standard excuse of oil. However, Calgary has also been successful at attracting and retaining companies who have nothing to do with oil or its related industry. (there are several who left Vancouver in the 90's for Calgary). They also boast the tallest building in western Canada and are about to raise that bar yet again. And anyone who has been to both cities knows that there nightlife blows ours out of the water with roughly half of the population. What they pull off for Stampede could/would never even be ATTEMPTED here.

While I think Vancouver can be more exciting I wouldn't envy the stampede here.

But what I can take away from the stampede experience (as culturally inapplicable as it is to vancouver) is that we need to have people willing to have large events that cater to ADULT party-goers (think of the crazy nights had at stampede) while having PARALLEL family-oriented options at stampede.

And I do think the GVRD concept has hampered the fun with every municipality trying to grab a piece of the 'fun' pie. There are a lot of festivals and events in the region but they're all oriented to a small demographic adjacent to where the festival is taking place. We need more events that attract 10+K within the Vancouver boundary.

As well, to be honest, I wouldn't mind seeing a mall or stip of stores trying out longer shopping hours (til like 11pm or even longer). That would add to atmosphere as it just gets more people out and about at all times of night. And since when is a downtown just measured by its nightlife - which I bet most people who only look at that are looking at nightclubs. How about having just a more varied list of activites that one could partake in nocturnally? I mean, let's have more events like FUSE - art gallery parties late at night. Late night theatre. Encourage owners of offices to allow events in their empty space at night. Have night time festivals. Just give options for people to leave the house at night - options OTHER than clubbing with 19 year olds who don't know what manners and dignity are.

[Denscity]

This thread proves beyond a doubt that people that don't live downtown have no idea what they're talking about.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by Distill3d

i can tell you've never been to the Stampede before.

Vancouver needs something like the Stampede. god knows the PNE doesn't come anywhere close to it.

No kidding. That falls under the classic Vancouver copout of they can keep X event cause we don't NEED it. A weak excuse

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by nova9

While I think Vancouver can be more exciting I wouldn't envy the stampede here.

But what I can take away from the stampede experience (as culturally inapplicable as it is to vancouver) is that we need to have people willing to have large events that cater to ADULT party-goers (think of the crazy nights had at stampede) while having PARALLEL family-oriented options at stampede.

And I do think the GVRD concept has hampered the fun with every municipality trying to grab a piece of the 'fun' pie. There are a lot of festivals and events in the region but they're all oriented to a small demographic adjacent to where the festival is taking place. We need more events that attract 10+K within the Vancouver boundary.

As well, to be honest, I wouldn't mind seeing a mall or stip of stores trying out longer shopping hours (til like 11pm or even longer). That would add to atmosphere as it just gets more people out and about at all times of night

Agreed. We shouldn't copy the stampede, but rather have our own events, festivals, that could at least rival an event that is put on by a much smaller region. Currently we have none. The PNE is a sad excuse and a shell of its former glory. Heck we can't even pull off a decent New Years celebration. In fact we had the mayor of Vancouver openly stating on the record that Vancouver doesn't want to be known as the place for people to go hang out at night. Thats basically giving the middle finger to people wanting to come downtown to enjoy themselves.

I also like the idea of later shopping hours, more options for all night eateries, neon signs, big screens, light displays etc etc. Its not just about nightclubs and bars. (although we could use some strengthening there too). Its all these things combined that add energy to a downtown.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by s211

And for good reason; they can keep that dreary hickfest clear of Vancouver thank you very much.

Ya, it would probably interrupt your knitting

[Distill3d]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

Agreed. We shouldn't copy the stampede, but rather have our own events, festivals, that could at least rival an event that is put on by a much smaller region. Currently we have none. The PNE is a sad excuse and a shell of its former glory. Heck we can't even pull off a decent New Years celebration. In fact we had the mayor of Vancouver openly stating on the record that Vancouver doesn't want to be known as the place for people to go hang out at night. Thats basically giving the middle finger to people wanting to come downtown to enjoy themselves.

i understand why he's saying it, to make it so that the crime rate doesn't spike with people leaving bars and starting fights or other civil unrest. but you're very much right with it being a big giant salute to those of us who can go out, have a good time, and not cause a ruckus. it also gave a giant salute to the fireworks show, and i would say if this guy stays in for any length of time, it would give a giant salute to the jazz and film festivals as well.

I also like the idea of later shopping hours, more options for all night eateries, neon signs, big screens, light displays etc etc. Its not just about nightclubs and bars. (although we could use some strengthening there too). Its all these things combined that add energy to a downtown.

having the SkyTrain and SeaBus run 24 hours (or at least until 3:00 AM) would have to be the start of the revolution. considering the extent of the SkyTrain network, having the last train leave Waterfront Station at 1:15 AM is pathetic. and night bus service is a funny joke. especially when they don't use the articulated buses and overcrowd the smaller buses they do use. after we take care of that issue, then we can take care of downtown.

just to stir the pot a bit here, i think the other thing we're neglected is a lively downtown isn't just what happens when the sun goes down. we've forgotten about daylight hours. save for Robson, downtown is a ghost town during the weekend when all those that work in the core are at their homes in Coquitlam and Langley. there isn't much to attract the regular joe downtown during this time either. sure we have VAG, the Canucks and the Lions, but not everyone cares for art, and what happens during extended road trips? not much.

[wrenegade]

I am glad the comparisons to Toronto have stopped. We will never be able to compete with that city, it is 3 times the size. It'd be like trying to compare Seattle and New York.

With regards to Calgary, we are two completely different cities. We will NEVER be the business centre of Western Canada, so let's stop trying to be. We may get some taller buildings in the future, but it's unlikely to top Calgary in that respect either, so we shouldn't complain about that. I will preface my comments about Calgary first by saying I LOVE that city, and I LOVE Stampede. I was probably born in the wrong province because I love country music, cowgirls, and obscenely big trucks that pollute the environment.

With that out of the way, how can you possibly say Vancouver isn't lively at night. And how can you possibly say Calgary is more lively? First off, trying living a block off of Granville street, and tell me it downtown isn't lively. my girlfriend lives on Seymour, behind Ceili's, and more than the bar scene, I am genuinely surprised at the street traffic on Granville at 5-6pm on weekdays. Secondly, Calgary's downtown is DEAD at night. And, believe it or not, it's even pretty dead in the middle of Stampede. As was mentioned before, a lot of the stuff is on 17th Ave, or other parts of the city. There aren't really many nightclubs downtown (at least not anymore). It's all office. And I mean ALL office. Very few people live downtown, and that will remain even with the waterfront development on the Bow near Prince's Island Park.

That being said, there are a couple thing I envy about Calgary. One is Stephen Ave. I love the amount of old buildings in decent or good condition, I love that it is a pedestrian street at night time. I think it is a good example of what Granville street could become, in some respects. Not taking away from the nightclubs, but a little more shopping down the street would liven things up during the day. I do think it is moving in the right direction, both with some of the newer retail as well as what will surely be a more pedestrian friendly atmosphere when the rejuvenation project is finished. Another thing I envy about Stephen Ave is Flames Central. For those of you who don't know what it is, it's a bar owned and operated by the Calgary Flames. It's in an old theatre that has been completely reno'd. The stage has been retained so it can host live events still, but most of the time there is a massive projection screen for sports (usually Flames) games. I've got some photos I'll post, but ya, a Canucks bar would be amazing.

Another thing I envy about Calgary is its fare-free downtown portion of the C-train. I'm not really sure how they police it, but if that was in place for the Waterfront-Stadium and Waterfront-Yaletown portions of the Skytrain and Canada Line, I think that would be pretty cool. With regards to the Calgary one, they are also looking at extending the fare-free portion to Stampede Park/Saddledome.

With regards to the Stampede, I don't think we'll ever have something like that here. Many simply wouldn't want it, but I think the main reason is we are too multicultural. Calgary is still very white. As a general rule they all love country, the Flames and big trucks. The city shuts down for the two weeks of Stampede, oil execs wear cowboy hats, jeans, and boots to work, for the couple hours they might be there. Stampede Park is very close to downtown, and has the C-train running right through it.

We don't have enough space in Vancouver to have a comparable event, the PNE doesn't have a Skytrain line, but the biggest obstacle is having enough people who like the same thing (or things) in order to get that excited about it.

I think our downtown is definitely going in the right direction. There is a ton of nightlife, although it definitely has room to improve, but that could be said for most places. One thing I think would go a long way in promoting different types of nightlife is extending the liquor licenses for restaurants beyond midnight. Or at least have the option for restaurants to apply for such a thing.

[wrenegade]

Some pics of Flames Central. Lousy P+S, but hopefully you get the idea.

I believe there are over 100 screens in the place, and you basically don't have to take your eye off the game, even going down to the washrooms.

[crazyjoeda]

I am glad the comparisons to Toronto have stopped. We will never be able to compete with that city, it is 3 times the size. It'd be like trying to compare Seattle and New York.

Downtown Toronto is not a good model for a lively downtown. I have been to Toronto a number of times and in the summer its alright; downtown Toronto is defiantly more lively than many cities but honestly they could have the same discussion we are having.

Compare Vancouver with other western cities of similar size, Seattle, San Diego, Portland, Denver and downtown Vancouver looks great. Compare Toronto with other eastern cities of similar size, Chicago, Boston, Montreal and it looks good but fairly average for cities of a similar size.

[Yume-sama]

Calgary is *not* as lively as Vancouver. For one, nobody lives downtown. There may be 1 or 2 streets where there is actually some activity, 17th Avenue (you can play count the fast food chains and pawn shops) and Stephen Ave, which has some OK shopping, but nothing compared to the Pacific Center let alone the rest of Robson Street. The rest of downtown has no life, there are not really any streetfront stores (nobody there to shop...) compared to Vancouver, and the dining is sub-par. Yes, Calgary has the Stampede for 10 days a year, but a LOT of locals leave the city during that time. Honestly, it sounds like the majority of you only consider a place "cool" if it has some trashy bars where you can go and get your rowdy and drink on (but not before pre-drinking at home, because the bar is too expensive). Vancouver has just as many trashy bars as Calgary, if not more, so I still fail to see the problem.

If you CAN'T find something to do, YOU ARE NOT TRYING HARD ENOUGH. Getting off of the forum would be a start.

So, Vancouver has: Better shopping, better food, better atmosphere, better weather, better culture, better diversity of activities (both inside and outside), than almost any city in North America.