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  #21  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2008, 1:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Only The Lonely.. View Post
I thought this was an interesting article. Any thoughts on it?
oops my bad i guess i have used that service of the HSC and drunk tank by the salvation army once, when i got really messed up.
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  #22  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2008, 1:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Mayor Quimby View Post
Wouldn't it cost less to ensure proper housing, education, etc. for everyone???
Quite simply, yes.

Calgary just announced their plan to eliminate most homelessness in 10 years, heres a story from the Herald on it:

Quote:
Homeless solution will cost $3.2 billion
10-year plan stresses need for long-term homes
Kim Guttormson, Calgary Herald
Published: Wednesday, January 30, 2008


Ending homelessness in Calgary will cost $3.2 billion, says a volunteer committee that released its plan Tuesday. But how much governments and the private sector are willing to invest remains to be seen.

"What we need right now is for the three levels of government to work together to source what works -- and how are we going to fund this, on the basis that we will actually save taxpayers' dollars over a 10-year period," said Steve Snyder, chairman of the Calgary Committee to End Homelessness.

Both the province and federal government applauded the plan, which emphasizes finding homes for the homeless before dealing with addictions and other obstacles, but neither promised new dollars.

"At the outset, I have no problems endorsing that approach generally," Monte Solberg, minister of Human Resources and Social Development, said of the 10-year plan. "As for the specifics, we do want to have a closer look."

Yvonne Fritz, the associate minister of affordable housing for the province, said the Stelmach government is committed to providing more units.

Mayor Dave Bronconnier said he will introduce a motion at Monday's council meeting to look at the recommendations of the 10-year plan that fall under the city's purview, including secondary suites.

"That doesn't mean we're going to move forward on all of them, what it does mean is there's been a community report with some recommendations. We want to take those seriously and see how we can move forward as quickly as possible to enact the ones we can as soon as possible," Bronconnier said.

Bronconnier added the city is also looking at tax incentives to encourage the private sector to build affordable housing.

The committee of volunteers released its ambitious 10-year plan Tuesday, outlining capital and operating costs it believes will give permanent shelter to all.

Spending the money upfront will save about $3.6 billion in ongoing direct and indirect costs over the first 10 years
, Snyder said, while praising the work done by existing shelters and organizations.

It is less expensive to pay for treatment programs that work than allowing the current system to continue, he added.

Calgary's Pathways to Housing began in December as a pilot project and will have six people in their own apartments by the middle of February.

The document is asking for just over $2 billion -- $1.4 billion of that from the private sector -- to create more than 11,000 affordable housing units, secondary suites, affordable rentals and rooms for single people.

Another $1.2 billion would be required from governments to cover the cost of programs that would help keep people in housing, including rent supplements, treatment beds for those with mental illness and addictions, and income support.

"I think it is amazingly ambitious, but absolutely something we need to do," said Pat Nixon, executive director of the Mustard Seed. "The biggest issue is going to be: can it be sustained? The only way is if all three levels of government shake hands and come together on this."

Dermot Baldwin, head of the Drop-In Centre, the city's biggest shelter, has mixed feelings about the plan.

The push for more affordable housing is necessary, he said, adding he expects governments will pony up the cash.

"In balance, there are things I like, things that need to be tweaked and others that show significant inexperience," he said, pointing to an "extremely expensive" recommendation that calls for a case management model that would give every homeless person a guide through the system.


kguttormson@theherald.canwest.com


Key Milestones of the Homeless Strategy
  • Retire 50 per cent of Calgary's emergency shelter capacity within five years.
  • Decrease the chronic homeless population 85 per cent from current levels within five years, with a complete elimination of chronic homelessness in seven years.
  • Eliminate family homelessness in two years.
  • Stop the growth of homelessness and stabilize the overall homeless count at 2006 levels by May 1, 2010.
  • Deliver a 12.5 per cent annual decrease in total homeless population starting in 2010.
  • Reduce the economic cost of homelessness.
  • Reduce the maximum average stay in emergency shelter to less than seven days by Dec. 31, 2018. By that point, anyone in emergency shelter will be rapidly moved into permanent housing.
They are basing their plan off a model used successfully in the states, and should work fine just about anywhere so long as everyone is onboard.
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  #23  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2008, 2:13 AM
ScrappyPeg ScrappyPeg is offline
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People need to accept that there will always be a small percentage of people that are not 'cureable'. The people of this article, the people in question have serious addiction and mental health problems - they go from having appropriate housing one day to being back on the street the next. Sometimes they are evicted for 'sniffiing' with their buddies in the laundry room, or partying, fighting, causing damage etc. Sometimes they leave because they think the aliens are living in their closets. Some are just menaces to society - those are the ones that are even banned from the Salvation Army and the Siloam.

This 'affordable housing' argument is too simplistic and tiresome - it is not the be all and end all solution to the 'homeless problem'. It is the argument of those who think they can save the world from itself. Tons of affordable housing won't solve the real problems these people have.
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  #24  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2008, 2:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Mayor Quimby View Post
You act as if these people actually had a choice in the matter. The majority of people are one mistake, missed cheque or bad choice from being in the same position. If one has no support system when they fall down then they have nobody to help them up.

Many of us make these life errors but have family and friends that will ALWAYS help us out. What if we didn't?
Wrong.

The article states rather clearly what they're doing. Don't have a place to stay ? Yes you do. Go there when it's time to sleep instead of calling an ambulance to take you there. Better yet, stick around, clean yourself up and get yourself together.

The "they're just victims" argument only works for so long. If these people actually wanted to change their lives they would be trying to. Obviously they don't want to. Nothing worse than helping people wallow in their own self-pity. This is a perfect example of exactly what I'm talking about. If you won't expect them to show personal responsibility then why should they ?

So yeah, go ahead, let them feel proud to be pariahs. That way we're all better off.

Now as for your own reasoning on all of this :
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. We're supposed to provide people with universal health care. Done. We're supposed to provide people with housing ? That's what welfare is for (and don't start with the crap about how welfare isn't enough to live on. It's not supposed to be. It's supposed to be there for when you need it , not there for you to party with which is what these people are obviously doing) We're supposed to give people a free education ? Already provided. Addictions problems ? How many treatment centers and hostels are we supposed to have for people to turn to ? There are already more than enough.
The problem is that some people just don't WANT any of this stuff.

What you would have us do is basically just give them cash. That's the problem with you socialist types. If people won't take what's offered then you guys always assume that the problem lies with "the system" instead of with the people who won't do something for themselves in the first place. The idea that people take responsibility for themselves is like kryptonite to you guys.

They have free education, health care, plenty of social services designed to help them to help themselves. They have a place to stay until they can afford their own. I'm sick of being told that I'm not paying these people enough to get their own bloody act together.

Of course, as soon as anybody points out that they're irresponsible and that's the core problem , we're always labeled as uncaring and elitist by you socialists. Instead of appreciating that we don't feel we should be just handing our cash over to drug addicts , drunks, and irresponsible people in general, you start with the ad hominem crap.

Forget it. YOU can spend YOUR money and YOUR time on these guys. Until they actually make an effort of their own they don't DESERVE what they're already getting.
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Last edited by Spocket; Feb 3, 2008 at 2:33 AM.
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  #25  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2008, 2:30 AM
Mayor Quimby Mayor Quimby is offline
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Originally Posted by Spocket View Post
Wrong.

The article states rather clearly what they're doing. Don't have a place to stay ? Yes you do. Go there when it's time to sleep instead of calling an ambulance to take you there. Better yet, stick around, clean yourself up and get yourself together.

The "they're just victims" argument only works for so long. If these people actually wanted to change their lives they would be trying to. Obviously they don't want to. Nothing worse than helping people wallow in their own self-pity. This is a perfect example of exactly what I'm talking about. If you won't expect them to show personal responsibility then why should they ?

So yeah, go ahead, let them feel proud to be pariahs. That way we're all better off.
Well you better make sure you have some strong boot straps because you will be pulling yourself up by them, alot. Your argument is best for those that don't believe that this could happen to them. One word of advice, it could happen to anyone. I do believe that you need to walk a mile in their shoes, first.
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  #26  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2008, 2:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Mayor Quimby View Post
Well you better make sure you have some strong boot straps because you will be pulling yourself up by them, alot. Your argument is best for those that don't believe that this could happen to them. One word of advice, it could happen to anyone. I do believe that you need to walk a mile in their shoes, first.
Who says I haven't ?

Instead of sitting around whining about how I was being failed by "the system" I got my act together.
Past history is a lame excuse for expecting something for nothing.
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  #27  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2008, 2:40 AM
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Who says I haven't ?

Instead of sitting around whining about how I was being failed by "the system" I got my act together.
Past history is a lame excuse for expecting something for nothing.
And you did it all yourself, while being dirt poor?

No family, friends, government assistance to help you get off your addiction that had you sleeping on the streets.
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  #28  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2008, 3:35 AM
ScrappyPeg ScrappyPeg is offline
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There's a difference between having family/friends help you when you are down to having millions of dollars wasted to get you no further than where you were yesterday.

Drunk/sniffer/mental health dude whos been kicked out of every housing affordable to mankind - still gets his welfare cheque, doesn't want to see a psychiatrist or get sober - he ain't gettin' any better fast, nor is he getting better with another 'affordable' place to live - he also ain't gonna get sober with a GED....
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  #29  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2008, 3:41 AM
Mayor Quimby Mayor Quimby is offline
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Originally Posted by ScrappyPeg View Post
There's a difference between having family/friends help you when you are down to having millions of dollars wasted to get you no further than where you were yesterday.

Drunk/sniffer/mental health dude whos been kicked out of every housing affordable to mankind - still gets his welfare cheque, doesn't want to see a psychiatrist or get sober - he ain't gettin' any better fast, nor is he getting better with another 'affordable' place to live - he also ain't gonna get sober with a GED....
Problem is that these people don't have family and friends that will or can or to help.

And I know quite a few "addicts" with more then a GED that are doing quite well. Education can and does make a large difference, if only for building confidence by completing something. However, you two can worry about whom to blame. I'll keep volunteering and looking for ways to help them.
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  #30  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2008, 3:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Mayor Quimby View Post
Problem is that these people don't have family and friends that will or can or to help.

And I know quite a few "addicts" with more then a GED that are doing quite well. Education can and does make a large difference, if only for building confidence by completing something. However, you two can worry about whom to blame. I'll keep volunteering and looking for ways to help them.
i know it got pretty rough at one point where they actually stored the hairspary behind the counter, basically putting it with tabacco which resulted in quite the scene. suspicion was always there when u buy just hairspray and u dont have any hair on ur head.
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  #31  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2008, 3:48 AM
ScrappyPeg ScrappyPeg is offline
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Originally Posted by Mayor Quimby View Post
Problem is that these people don't have family and friends that will or can or to help.

And I know quite a few "addicts" with more then a GED that are doing quite well. Education can and does make a large difference, if only for building confidence by completing something. However, you two can worry about whom to blame. I'll keep volunteering and looking for ways to help them.
The guys in this news article? You're not entirely right - many of them do have family/friends but few of those would care to help them because they have tired of trying and their issues are more complex - they can be difficult people to say the least. The guys who the article speak of aren't only addicts, they also have severe mental health problems - GED won't do squat for them.

And these same guys, have lived in almost every affordable housing you can find in this city. As I mentioned, some of them have been banned from the Salvation Army and the Siloam Mission for their disruptive and sometimes dangerous behaviour. I know plenty of addicts too, the people of this article aren't 'just' addicts....

To say these guys only need the enlightenment of education and affordable housing is very naive.
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  #32  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2008, 3:51 AM
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oh the best was when i seen some panhandlers going around making their trips asking for change etc.. they'd end up walking away with some cash and go back home where they had a place to stay and believe it or not had a job.
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  #33  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2008, 3:57 AM
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Originally Posted by ScrappyPeg View Post
The guys in this news article? You're not entirely right - many of them do have family/friends but few of those would care to help them because they have tired of trying and their issues are more complex - they can be difficult people to say the least. The guys who the article speak of aren't only addicts, they also have severe mental health problems - GED won't do squat for them.

And these same guys, have lived in almost every affordable housing you can find in this city. As I mentioned, some of them have been banned from the Salvation Army and the Siloam Mission for their disruptive and sometimes dangerous behaviour. I know plenty of addicts too, the people of this article aren't 'just' addicts....

To say these guys only need the enlightenment of education and affordable housing is very naive.
i have friends who have been there, and you know thats right they do have family and friends, sometimes its hard to break a habbit when ur addicted. i use to visit my friend who last i seen lived at the mclaren hotel, i went in there a few times, jesus, u wanna see vancouvers', hastings real quick. thats a hub for drugs right there. people on welfare who recieved money, and a monthly bus pass or weekly whatever, sold it the local restaurant for solid cash, then go buy drugs. and they sold the bus passes somtimes for half the price. by the way, my friend finished high school, and is a pretty bright person, sadly somewhere along the line he just got real messed up, because of family issues, hence falling in on hard times. so i would be so quick to judge these guys they know exactly what they are doing, its all a choice.
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  #34  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2008, 9:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Mayor Quimby View Post
And you did it all yourself, while being dirt poor?

No family, friends, government assistance to help you get off your addiction that had you sleeping on the streets.
Close.

Either way that's still beside the point. What you're basically advocating is more of the same. It's fundamentally flawed because it's designed for people who actually WANT to do something with their lives. And even that isn't the real issue here . The real issue is the fact that these people are abusing a system that is set up to help them and they're doing it on our dime.

Why are we supposed to excuse their irresponsibility exactly ? Just because they don't feel a Friday night is complete without a bottle of Aqua Velva doesn't mean they're allowed to waste millions of our dollars. They have plenty of opportunity (the exact same opportunities that I had) and they're ignoring them. That's their choice. In that case , since it's all about "them" then we should choose to set them free from society until they're ready to rejoin it. Or force them to join in and actually contribute. If that's unreasonable to you then I am glad you're not actually in charge of government social initiatives.
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  #35  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2008, 5:31 PM
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The problem is likely worse in Ontario. While Harris was in power he kicked tonnes of people with mental disabilities out of provincial institutions and onto the streets. Many homeless people in Thunder Bay that I see are suffering from mental conditions.

Ontario doesn't believe in instutionalizing people anymore. We let them "live independent lives" and only make them get help "when they feel they need it". They really need somewhere to go. They can't stay on the street and they certainly can't stay in hospitals. Iirc, our hospital's criminally insane unit only holds about two dozen. Thunder Bay must have at least 200 homeless.
I think the term the Doer government likes to use is 'Community Living'. Its unfortunate that adults with serious mental disorders are put out on the street because the government can't provide adequate care. Many of these people have no choice but to turn to drugs, alcohol or glue.

That's why I believe that Gord Steeves is correct in his proposal to force these people into treatment programs. Clearly they are a threat to both themselves and others.
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  #36  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2008, 5:32 PM
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oops my bad i guess i have used that service of the HSC and drunk tank by the salvation army once, when i got really messed up.
It happens to the best of us. I have a couple of colleagues that have spent a night at the Maryland street drunk tank.
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  #37  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2008, 5:45 PM
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I think the morale of this story is that you can't legislate humane motivation. If you don't have the will to remove yourself from a destructive situation no amount of government projects or spending will be able to help.

As a society we step in and act on behalf of children and animals who don't have the thought process to look after themselves, why not do the same for these street people? Clearly they have abdicated responsibility for their own health and in that way are very much mentally like a child or an animal in their thinking.

Having these people roaming around causing trouble is a public health risk plain and simple.
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  #38  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2008, 3:48 PM
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The solution is simple. Start charging a nominal fee for ambulance and emergency hospital services.

$50 per ambulance trip or emergency visit should keep it available for those that truly need it.
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  #39  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2008, 4:11 PM
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The solution is simple. Start charging a nominal fee for ambulance and emergency hospital services.

$50 per ambulance trip or emergency visit should keep it available for those that truly need it.
They already do charge about that amount to regular people. I'm not sure how it works for those without a residence.
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  #40  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2008, 5:59 PM
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Actually I think the cost is higher. I might be mistaken but I think the cost is closer to about two hundred bucks.
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