CHICAGO | Politics and Current Events

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by Handro

I think the problem you have--judging by the posts I remember seeing over the past year and a half--is with big cities, not Chicago specifically. I don't think you'll find a city over a certain size that doesn't have lots of competing cultural and political interests that end up creating lots of frustrating log jams. Chicago certainly has lots of ignorance and selfishness and corruption among it's leadership ranks, but it's a fantasy to think you won't find the same, or different yet similar, issues impeding the utopian progress of any major city. Despite the popular headlines, the facts bear out that Chicago is fine, it's not going the way of Detroit, skyscrapers are still being built, businesses are still moving here, the average income is increasing, and the real estate market is on fire. Maristhou does a great job keeping us all aware of those facts. In the same way it's important to ignore the Huffington Post headlines about COVID ending the world and just look at the data, we need to remember to ignore John Kass and heyjackass.com.

It's possible to love cities and urban development conceptually without enjoying living in one, in the same way one can be fascinated with the natural world and relish spending time in a secluded cabin without moving full time to Wyoming.

^ I think big cities are awesome places........



FOR ME TO POOP ON!!!!!!!

[BrinChi]

The trash thing, which we discussed recently on the General Chicago forum page, is the most consistently frustrating thing about urban living for me. It's all relative though because compared to NYC Chicago is spotless. Even when a block in NYC doesn't have litter, there is still trash sitting in front of every building.

I'm still convinced that the single most important low-cost public service the city can provide is to pick up trash city-wide, and do a better job trying to enforce anti-litterring laws (especially people who throw them out of their car). Trash in public areas is the quintessential tragedy-of-the-commons scenario. If we decide as a community that this is important and we want our streets and parks clean, more people will catch on. It's a foundational investment for our city.

Trust me, with a toddler right now I am more aware of how much trash is laying around than ever before. (so many bottle caps! how do they all get separated from the bottle??) But as others suggested, it's best to focus on the benefits of city living and good experiences so that you don't get paralyzed by the annoyances.

[Kngkyle]

Having just moved back from New York... yea this city is basically spotless. However what really grinds my gears is seeing trash floating in the river or lake. Although it's not all that common thankfully.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by moorhosj1

Notable that your ideal city is one of the most expensive and homogeneous major cities in the world. Maybe it's the diversity and poor people of American cities that's bothering you?

The whole "everyone that doesn't think like me must be racist" thing is getting tired.

Yes, me...a white dude picked a city with pretty much no white people because I am racist. Your logic is spot on.

Maybe its the crime, horrible leadership, and a large portion of people that live in a city yet have no clue on how to live in a city (i.e be civil)? No, its racism.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by OrdoSeclorum

I hear you, but I think you're just noticing bad stuff and not internalizing good things. I like Tokyo a lot and everyone there does follow the rules. I feel reflected shame for myself when a tourist is being loud on the same train car I'm on in Tokyo! But I also like Mexico City and Bangkok a lot and those places are nuts.

People in my neighborhood sometimes drink in their cars and throw the bottles on to the sidewalk. I pick them up. Sometimes people do come in from the suburbs and exurbs with the goal of annoying city dwellers with loud motorcycle groups. I largely overlook that stuff because it doesn't affect my day-to-day life in any way.

What *does* affect my ordinary day is seeing kids exit the school on my block and run to the corner store to buy candy. I often don't lock the door to my house if I run out on an errand. Several times a summer as I'm walking to get a coffee on Saturday morning I see a big wedding happening in the church on the way. When I walk my dog in the late afternoon I say "hi" to the same mailman I see a few times a week. I walk to get my haircut. I'm basically living the small town life in Chicago that my rural relatives think that they are living. In reality, their lives are driving 15 minutes each way to Walmart several times a week.

The small town of 2000 I grew up in was about a 30-minute drive from the closest fast food. It's the kind of place people have second homes. When I was in highschool there were two murders, one was the father of a classmate. I can't tell you what sort of carnage was wreaked by drunk driving and drunk snowmobiling. A constant drumbeat. If you got out of your car on the way to someplace, there were bullet holes in all kinds of stuff, and rain-soacked porn mags and beercans on the sides of the highway. But no one thought of any of those things as being social issues because they were spread out in a low density environment. The distance I would drive to meet a "neighbor" as a highschooler is about the same as between the Loop and Lakeview. If all of the misery in that distance in a fairly idyllic rural area was packed into one community it would be noticed, but since it's just driven quickly past and seen through a car window, no one ever thinks about it.

I totally understand your point. As I've said, this city (and region) has afforded me so many opportunities that probably wouldn't be possible in most places.

The vast majority of people I've actually communicated with are honestly good people. I was greeted with a "good morning" twice the other day, I had no idea I would run into people like that in an area like this before I moved here. This city is incredible, no doubt about that. But I weighed all the pros and cons and my projection in life, and I found it didn't come out on the positive side, that is all.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by Handro

Would you really enjoy Tokyo, though? They are a collectivist society that frowns on individuals acting out of their own self interest--basically the opposite of the Horatio Alger/Ayn Rand mythos of America. They may not litter, but you would also get shamed to oblivion for something like not wearing a mask during COVID.

Well, it was long ago, but when I lived there I absolutely loved it. When a society works, you tend to fall in line.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

When a society works, you tend to fall in line.

That’s the key point here

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

When a society works, you tend to fall in line.

Societal conformity is fucking amazing, as long you like what society is conforming too. Otherwise..................................

Big cities in a HIGHLY individualistic society like america require some rather thick skin. Some people have it. Some don't.

I hope you find your happy place.

I've found mine!

[moorhosj1]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

The whole "everyone that doesn't think like me must be racist" thing is getting tired.

Yes, me...a white dude picked a city with pretty much no white people because I am racist. Your logic is spot on.

Maybe its the crime, horrible leadership, and a large portion of people that live in a city yet have no clue on how to live in a city (i.e be civil)? No, its racism.

Nobody called you a racist, you can drop that card. I noted the connection between you saying it is the "people" that bother you in Chicago and the well-known lack of diversity in Tokyo. I also mentioned how Tokyo being one of the most expensive cities in the world raises the bar on who can afford to live there (aka diversity). You ignored that comment to focus on race.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by moorhosj1

Nobody called you a racist, you can drop that card. I noted the connection between you saying it is the "people" that bother you in Chicago and the well-known lack of diversity in Tokyo. I also mentioned how Tokyo being one of the most expensive cities in the world raises the bar on who can afford to live there (aka diversity). You ignored that comment to focus on race.

Drop that "card?"

When someone says that I probably have a problem with diversity, that can only lead to one place.

Yeah, people. You don't need to put that into quotations, again, you are obviously leading to a point here. It's not the weather, built environment, or economy that is the issue to me.

Ok, take Tokyo out of the equation, the entire country of Japan is pleasant.



In any case, this all gets old. All the kids in my classes talk non-stop about poor neighborhoods in Chicago and how if we just invest in them, my god, they would be even more awesome, what great communities!

Yet zero of them live in those communities. This isn't a Jtown thing, this is a human thing, when given a choice people don't want to live in poor areas. That doesn't surprise people who think about that for one second.

[Klippenstein]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

All the kids in my classes talk non-stop about poor neighborhoods in Chicago and how if we just invest in them, my god, they would be even more awesome, what great communities!

Yet zero of them live in those communities. This isn't a Jtown thing, this is a human thing, when given a choice people don't want to live in poor areas. That doesn't surprise people who think about that for one second.

You know where they all live? If true, this sounds like a problem of whatever institution you are attending. There's plenty of students who grow up and still live in poor neighborhoods with family. Momentarily "poor" students frequently also live in poorer urban neighborhoods, which sometimes signals the first wave of gentrification for an area.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by Klippenstein

You know where they all live? If true, this sounds like a problem of whatever institution you are attending. There's plenty of students who grow up and still live in poor neighborhoods with family. Momentarily "poor" students frequently also live in poorer urban neighborhoods, which sometimes signals the first wave of gentrification for an area.

And it's not like you have to live somewhere to want to invest in it...

[LouisVanDerWright]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

And it's not like you have to live somewhere to want to invest in it...

That's what TUP said I needed to do the other day...

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

That's what TUP said I needed to do the other day...

No, I said that if you invest somewhere that you don’t live, and then accuse others of being “racist” for not wanting to live in one of your investments (which your rant at the time kinda suggested), then indeed you are vulnerable to the criticism of hypocrisy.

Otherwise, obviously you don’t have to live where you invest. I don’t.

For example, I don’t own any buildings in Englewood. If I did, I would shoot for Section 8. If potential renters didn’t want to live here, I wouldn’t accuse them of anything—I perfectly understand why many people would be very hesitant to live there. And I sure as fuck wouldn’t live in Englewood today, in 2021 either (nor would any other forumer here).

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by Klippenstein

You know where they all live? If true, this sounds like a problem of whatever institution you are attending. There's plenty of students who grow up and still live in poor neighborhoods with family. Momentarily "poor" students frequently also live in poorer urban neighborhoods, which sometimes signals the first wave of gentrification for an area.

Actually, for the most part, yes. We all introduce ourselves in every class and in two of my four classes this year we were asked to state what neighborhood we live in. We are urban planners, so talking about your neighborhood comes naturally in normal conversations. And I've worked with tons of students on projects so I get to know them well. So yeah.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

And it's not like you have to live somewhere to want to invest in it...

Very True.

However there is another dynamic at play. They pretend that those neighborhoods, barring the disinvestment issue, are wonderful places! They simply ignore the massive issues in those neighborhoods like single parenthood homes, drugs, gangs, and a mass of youth with zero direction because of the other issues.

CPS said something like they don't expect 30% of students (around 100k) to even attend school this year. huh? Building a farmers market or grocery store in Englewood won't change that stunning statistic. It's putting lipstick on a pig.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

Very True.

However there is another dynamic at play. They pretend that those neighborhoods, barring the disinvestment issue, are wonderful places! They simply ignore the massive issues in those neighborhoods like single parenthood homes, drugs, gangs, and a mass of youth with zero direction because of the other issues.

CPS said something like they don't expect 30% of students (around 100k) to even attend school this year. huh? Building a farmers market or grocery store in Englewood won't change that stunning statistic. It's putting lipstick on a pig.

I would guess that they think 1) there are a lot of wonderful people and culture and history and pride in these neighborhoods and 2) where they live is even more wonderful (so.... no contradiction there?). And maybe they think that those sorts of investments might help prevent youth from joining gangs? I don't think that's entirely out of the question.

[LouisVanDerWright]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

I would guess that they think 1) there are a lot of wonderful people and culture and history and pride in these neighborhoods and 2) where they live is even more wonderful (so.... no contradiction there?). And maybe they think that those sorts of investments might help prevent youth from joining gangs? I don't think that's entirely out of the question.

When you go to the Kedzie Pink Line and there's literally not a single open retail business within eyesight, it's not "because of the people who live there". These problems are the result of poor policy decisions and outright racism by our society.

North Lawndale has an unemployment rate of 21%+ (probably higher now due to covid)

North Lawndale has 43% of households under the poverty line.

North Lawndale has a per Capita income of $12,000, nationally it's $68k.


So who here is going to say the area is "bad" because of the people who comprise these statistics? Who here is going to say that any of this is "their fault"??? Sure I'm all for personal responsibility, but come on people, these statistics aren't because the people in North Lawndale all happened to choose to make poor decisions all at once...

So again, let's go back to the red lining, the block busting, the systemic exclusion of Blacks from real estate ownership, the foisting of a drug war and uncontrolled crack epidemic on these areas. Let's just consider the perverse incentives every do gooder welfare policy seems to have been loaded with (more kids = more money, single mom = more money). Let's consider that our society has just not given a shit about these areas and the people living there for a half a century or more. Let's maybe observe that the reaction to unrest eminating from these self inflicted social wounds are always just met with "pass a bill with a few bucks in it for em" or "let's raise SNAP! That'll solve it!"...



None of it works, doesn't matter if it's the bootstrapping bullshit coming from the right or the lame attempts at "give a man a fish so he can eat for a day" from the left. None of it will work or has ever worked, at the end of the day there's still not a single business to be found near the Kedzie Pink Line. You cross to the "right side of the tracks" and there's hundreds of vibrant businesses, but when you are on the wrong side of the tracks, nothing. It's outrageous and, frankly, investment is going to be the only solution to the problem.

You can't expect people to move up in the system when there is nowhere in their entire neighborhood where they can learn the system. You can't expect young people to want to work hard when there are no jobs for them in their neighborhood. You can't expect people to start businesses when every storefront is boarded up. You can't expect people to want to move to a neighborhood when every 5th building is boarded up and on the demo list...

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

When you go to the Kedzie Pink Line and there's literally not a single open retail business within eyesight, it's not "because of the people who live there". These problems are the result of poor policy decisions and outright racism by our society.

North Lawndale has an unemployment rate of 21%+ (probably higher now due to covid)

North Lawndale has 43% of households under the poverty line.

North Lawndale has a per Capita income of $12,000, nationally it's $68k.


So who here is going to say the area is "bad" because of the people who comprise these statistics? Who here is going to say that any of this is "their fault"??? Sure I'm all for personal responsibility, but come on people, these statistics aren't because the people in North Lawndale all happened to choose to make poor decisions all at once...

So again, let's go back to the red lining, the block busting, the systemic exclusion of Blacks from real estate ownership, the foisting of a drug war and uncontrolled crack epidemic on these areas. Let's just consider the perverse incentives every do gooder welfare policy seems to have been loaded with (more kids = more money, single mom = more money). Let's consider that our society has just not given a shit about these areas and the people living there for a half a century or more. Let's maybe observe that the reaction to unrest eminating from these self inflicted social wounds are always just met with "pass a bill with a few bucks in it for em" or "let's raise SNAP! That'll solve it!"...



None of it works, doesn't matter if it's the bootstrapping bullshit coming from the right or the lame attempts at "give a man a fish so he can eat for a day" from the left. None of it will work or has ever worked, at the end of the day there's still not a single business to be found near the Kedzie Pink Line. You cross to the "right side of the tracks" and there's hundreds of vibrant businesses, but when you are on the wrong side of the tracks, nothing. It's outrageous and, frankly, investment is going to be the only solution to the problem.

You can't expect people to move up in the system when there is nowhere in their entire neighborhood where they can learn the system. You can't expect young people to want to work hard when there are no jobs for them in their neighborhood. You can't expect people to start businesses when every storefront is boarded up. You can't expect people to want to move to a neighborhood when every 5th building is boarded up and on the demo list...

Have you seen the single parenthood in many Chicago neighborhoods? That alone explains a lot of what we see.

The data are clear, kids of single parenthood homes are MUCH more likely to commit crime among other socially bad choices.

Yet no one talks about this, because talking about personal responsibility is a no no in 2021.

Also, two parents equals two incomes, so the chances of you living in poverty are drastically lower.

Look at the single parenthood rates of Lincoln Park and North Lawndale.

[moorhosj1]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

Yet no one talks about this, because talking about personal responsibility is a no no in 2021.

You are here, talking about it without persecution. One of our nation’s two political parties is entirely based on the concept. It’s hardly the taboo you claim.

You’re posts are focused on “personal responsibility” and LVDW is speaking of “societal responsibility”. They both have a place in the discussion, but as people who don’t live in these neighborhoods, it can come off as disingenuous or even victim-blaming.

A child who grows up in this area is not at fault for the decades of disinvestment (from public and private). They blatantly do not have the same opportunity as someone who grows up in Lincoln Park (from lead pipes to food desserts to bad schools). Trying to boil the difference down to “personal responsibility” misses the whole boat. If we actually wanted to discuss single parenthood, we’d need to get into the factors that lead to single parenthood instead of just highlighting the outcome as bias reinforcement.