Where Is The Rust Belt?

[mrnyc]

its interesting to hear about other rust belts around the world.

it seems kansai was once thought of as japan’s version.

https://www.joc.com/maritime-news/ja..._19900409.html

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

oh, that's a fairly unique mill that uses much newer tech than the truly old school steel mills in NW Indiana. It uses the "direct reduced iron" (DRI) process to convert raw iron ore into sponge iron that then goes in to the mill's electric arc furnace (EAF), along with recycled scrap steel.

in a traditional integrated steel mill like those in NW Indiana, raw iron ore is turned in pig-iron in a blast furnace (BF), but it is kept hot as "hot metal" and used directly as the charge into a basic oxygen furnace (BOF) to turn it into steel.

the DRI process uses natural gas (or alternatively coal in rotary kiln) in a chemical process to separate and remove the oxygen that is binded to the iron in the ore without bring the material up to its full melting point.

the integrated DRI/EAF mill at Contrecoeur is actually one of the oldest of its types in the world, and traditionally they weren't capable of producing as high of grades of steel as traditional BF/BOF mills. also, they typically were much smaller scale than traditional mills. for instance, the Contrecoeur DRI mill can produce about 1M tons of sponge iron a year, whereas the blast furnaces at Gary Works can produce around 8M tons of pig iron.

however, that tech has advanced quite a bit over the decades, and there are now DRI/EAF mills coming online that are starting to make higher quality steel at larger scales more in-line with traditional BF/BOF mills.

the DRI/EAF process of producing steel from iron ore is the likely future of the industry. Cleveland-Cliffs recently built America's largest DRI mill in Toledo that condenses its product down to HBI so it can be safely transported to mini-mills around the great lakes region to be combined with scrap steel in their EAFs.

Thanks for all that info! I recall that steel mill has been kinda bragging about their process ("midrex") since at least the 1990s, so I'm not surprised to hear it's fairly "special". The Reduction Plant is the part of the complex I'm the most familiar with, it indeed uses natural gas to extract the iron ions from the iron oxide (Fe2O3) it uses for input.

You seem very knowledgeable, I'm guessing you work in the steel industry? Took me over 13 years to notice your username is "Steely" Dan! Can you believe that

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by lio45

I'm guessing you work in the steel industry?

i actually don't, i'm just a rust belt uber-nerd.

it all started as a young child when my first "nerd love" actually wasn't skyscrapers, but rather the giant great lakes ore
freighters that bring all of that taconite from the lake superior iron ranges down to the steel mills in the lower lakes.


source: http://www.boatnerd.com/pictures/fleet/cort.htm


besides, steel is basically the coolest fucking material ever, so who wouldn't want to learn as much about it as they can?

no steel = no skyscrapers......... and what a terrible world that would be

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

i actually don't, i'm just a rust belt uber-nerd.

it all started as a young child when my first "nerd love" actually wasn't skyscrapers, but rather the giant great lakes ore
freighters that bring all of that taconite from the lake superior iron ranges down to the steel mills in the lower lakes.


source: http://www.boatnerd.com/pictures/fleet/cort.htm

That's cool that you took such an interest in the ore freighters as a kid... cool because I did too.

When I was a little kid in the late '70s/early '80s, we had a 1958 Chris Craft docked at this blue collar "marina" right in the heart of Erie's industrial bayfront -- we were definitely not in the "yacht club" set . There were various ship and boat-building industries, a coal-fired Penelec steam plant, a massive grain elevator, an asphalt shingle factory, the Erie Marine and Litton shipyards, and sand, gravel, salt, coal, and iron ore docks immediately surrounding the spot.

Because it was a wooden boat from 1958, my father and grandfather were always down there working on it, and they would bring me along. I was in awe of all the activity around the water, but the massive freighters at the shipyards and loading/unloading docks were (are still) just unbelievable to me. All the different types of Great Lakes and ocean-going freighters, plus naval ships, were built/repaired/converted/cut up there. The dry dock there is massive (one of, if not the, largest on the Lakes), and to see 1,000-footers out of the water up on keel blocks is amazing. Most of the other industry is long gone from the bayfront, but shipbuilding remains. Love the atmosphere of heavy, hulking steel on the water.

[benp]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

i actually don't, i'm just a rust belt uber-nerd.

it all started as a young child when my first "nerd love" actually wasn't skyscrapers, but rather the giant great lakes ore
freighters that bring all of that taconite from the lake superior iron ranges down to the steel mills in the lower lakes.


source: http://www.boatnerd.com/pictures/fleet/cort.htm


besides, steel is basically the coolest fucking material ever, so who wouldn't want to learn as much about it as they can?

no steel = no skyscrapers......... and what a terrible world that would be

I didn't realize until I married someone from Texas how regionalized some of my learning was. I recall grade school in the 60s and 70s social study classes where we learned about iron ore, different types of furnaces and steel-making processes, the varieties of coal and coke production and use, and also the history and growth of labor unions. I thought everybody learned these in school!

I suppose these are not taught anymore, but I wonder if this was just a Buffalo thing or others that grew up when I did had the same kind of teaching?

[pj3000]

^ Not only did we learn about that in the classroom, but we also went on field trips to foundries, mills, shipyards, and various factories. I recall that a popular highlight for the boys on the trips was seeing worker locker rooms featuring lots of Playboy pinup posters on the walls and locker doors.

[PoshSteve]

Originally Posted by pj3000

That's cool that you took such an interest in the ore freighters as a kid... cool because I did too.

When I was a little kid in the late '70s/early '80s, we had a 1958 Chris Craft docked at this blue collar "marina" right in the heart of Erie's industrial bayfront -- we were definitely not in the "yacht club" set . There were various ship and boat-building industries, a coal-fired Penelec steam plant, a massive grain elevator, an asphalt shingle factory, the Erie Marine and Litton shipyards, and sand, gravel, salt, coal, and iron ore docks immediately surrounding the spot.

Because it was a wooden boat from 1958, my father and grandfather were always down there working on it, and they would bring me along. I was in awe of all the activity around the water, but the massive freighters at the shipyards and loading/unloading docks were (are still) just unbelievable to me. All the different types of Great Lakes and ocean-going freighters, plus naval ships, were built/repaired/converted/cut up there. The dry dock there is massive (one of, if not the, largest on the Lakes), and to see 1,000-footers out of the water up on keel blocks is amazing. Most of the other industry is long gone from the bayfront, but shipbuilding remains. Love the atmosphere of heavy, hulking steel on the water.

Awesome pics. I didn't realize that even was in Erie, even though I've been to the city many times. I love the huge lake freighters. One of my favorite things living in Cleveland is being on the boardwalk along the river, or one of the riverfront patios for the breweries/restaurants down in the Flats, and watching the freighters go by. It's amazing how they are able to navigate the huge ships around all the tight bends in the river going up to the steel and aluminum plants. They are so close to the boardwalk that you basically have to look straight up to see the decks. It's really a unique experience.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Huh. Went to elementary school in Cincinnati and we talked about how the city used to be a gigantic pork processing center (pigs led through the streets to slaughterhouses) and how Proctor & Gamble became huge thanks in part to Ivory Soap. Then again, a lot of the kids I went to grade school with had parents who worked at P&G and the pork processing factories had all long disappeared by the time I was in elementary school in the early to mid 1990s so there weren't any field trips to a slaughterhouse, which is probably a good thing?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

besides, steel is basically the coolest fucking material ever, so who wouldn't want to learn as much about it as they can?

I feel like an uninterested uncurious person now, seeing as I have a couple steel mills as customers, which I visit often, and deal with steel industry people regularly, yet I don't know as much as you do

QIT / Rio Tinto used to be a customer of ours as well (in Sorel, which you know about).

The aluminum plant in Deschambault (an Alcoa plant nowadays) is our customer, I'll be there at some point in the next couple weeks. We also have one mini-mill that produces steel out of scrap metal in Montreal, and that's it for the "metallurgical" subcategory of our customers. The rest are mostly petrochemical or pulp-paper. I also know a bit - same approx. level as my steel industry knowledge - about their operations, as I'm a somewhat intellectually curious person, but definitely not enough to match what "Petrochem Dan" or "Pulp&Paper Dan" would know

[lio45]

Great post pj3000

PA and IN aren't states I usually associate with the Great Lakes that much, it's funny to realize these states have respectively the biggest shipyard and the biggest steel operations of the entire Lakes.

[ChiSoxRox]

Originally Posted by lio45

The aluminum plant in Deschambault (an Alcoa plant nowadays) is our customer, I'll be there at some point in the next couple weeks. We also have one mini-mill that produces steel out of scrap metal in Montreal, and that's it for the "metallurgical" subcategory of our customers. The rest are mostly petrochemical or pulp-paper. I also know a bit - same approx. level as my steel industry knowledge - about their operations, as I'm a somewhat intellectually curious person, but definitely not enough to match what "Petrochem Dan" or "Pulp&Paper Dan" would know

Exxon, don't lose that number
You don't want to hire nobody else
Send it off in a CV to yourself

[JManc]

Originally Posted by pj3000

^ Not only did we learn about that in the classroom, but we also went on field trips to foundries, mills, shipyards, and various factories. I recall that a popular highlight for the boys on the trips was seeing worker locker rooms featuring lots of Playboy pinup posters on the walls and locker doors.

The NY Barge Canal for me as a kid. The locks were cool. My grandfather took my mom and aunt to see the St. Lawrence Seaway open when they were kids in the late 50's.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by lio45

Great post pj3000

PA and IN aren't states I usually associate with the Great Lakes that much, it's funny to realize these states have respectively the biggest shipyard and the biggest steel operations of the entire Lakes.

NW indiana is home to the 3 biggest steel mills in the nation, but there are no ship yards there.

The only major active ship yards on lake michigan that I'm aware of are in wisconsin at sturgeon bay (the first brand new freighter built on the lakes in decades is currently U/C there) and at marinette (where the US navy's freedom class LCS ships are built).

Originally Posted by ChiSoxRox

Exxon, don't lose that number
You don't want to hire nobody else
Send it off in a CV to yourself

Nice.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

NW indiana is home to the 3 biggest steel mills in the nation, but there are no ship yards there.

Yeah, I said, if you read carefully, that it was amusing that the states of Philly and Indy, which I personally don't typically associate with the Great Lakes that much, have, respectively, the likely biggest shipyard (in pj3000's hometown of Erie) and the biggest steel works (in your greater neck of the woods, over the state line going southeast from Chicago) on the Lakes

(I still appreciate all your posts on the topic, don't read this post as hostile, it's not. )

[lio45]

Originally Posted by JManc

The NY Barge Canal for me as a kid. The locks were cool. My grandfather took my mom and aunt to see the St. Lawrence Seaway open when they were kids in the late 50's.

At the time, my grandfather did the exact same with my dad and his siblings, downriver from you guys, in Montreal. (Not exactly surprising, come to think of it. It was a big deal, and exciting.)

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by lio45

Yeah, I said, if you read carefully, that it was amusing that the states of Philly and Indy, which I personally don't typically associate with the Great Lakes that much, have, respectively, the likely biggest shipyard (in pj3000's hometown of Erie) and the biggest steel works (in your greater neck of the woods, over the state line going southeast from Chicago) on the Lakes

(I still appreciate all your posts on the topic, don't read this post as hostile, it's not. )

Yep, I was reading too quickly.

I completely missed the word "respectively".

As for largest ship yard on the lakes, I don't know if the operations in erie are bigger than those in sturgeon bay, but they're probably on par enough to call it a draw, I'm not even sure how'd you would measure it as most of what they do these days is repair/maintenance work. As I said before, a new great lakes freighter hasn't been built on the lakes in decades, so the new one U/C in sturgeon bay is a pretty damn big deal locally.

And marinette's ship yard has been making mint with their big fat US Navy LCS contract. They also recently got the contract to build the US Navy's next generation frigate, which is an even fatter plum for them. So they're full steam ahead on the ship building up there.

It's fun to think about how many of the navy's ships, that will be plying the waters of the worlds oceans, are built a thousand miles inland, far from the nearest drop of salt water. Thanks Welland canal/st. Lawrence seaway!

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

The border region of Northern France/Belgium is full of decaying factories. Lille is extremely gritty. Marseille too.

Like Trump in the American Rustbelt, LePen picked up a lot of votes from the rustbelty parts of France

economist

A couple of members find this interesting, so I'll roughly tell them about what local politologues (political scientists) sociologues (sociologists) say about that.

As seen on that map, there are 2 chunks of the country that tend to vote for the French nationalists, but these are 2 distinct cases.

The actual rust belt hit by the loss of industry and relocations to Eastern Europe and Asia is the large Northeast area. That's mostly where the French state strategists and capitalist investors gradually gave up on industry, hence a high unemployment rate and a lot of despair.
The Paris urban area is almost like a yellow stain in there because the Parisian economy proper has been more diverse and widely based on services.

Now the Southeast of the country neighboring Italy (the Mediterranean coast) would be something different. While downtown Marseille has been decaying to some extent, most of the coast is actually doing ok. There's money out there, especially over the Riviera (Nice and surroundings along the coast) where a lot of better off retirees live. It's a bit like Florida in that respect. That's where you'd want your villa for retirement.
So a lot of people over there would vote for the nationalists to mainly say - keep immigrants away and leave us alone. There are too many migrants on this coast. We're getting sick of it.
That's about it. Lots of old people out there...
Otherwise, Marseille has had a plan to restore the excessively gritty bits of their central town. Hopefully, they implement it properly because it's actually a rather nice town, overall.

[Acajack]

Interesting choice of locales shown on that map of France. All fairly major cities except Molsheim (10,000 people) and Briord (1,000 people)!

[edale]

Originally Posted by mousquet

A couple of members find this interesting, so I'll roughly tell them about what local politologues (political scientists) sociologues (sociologists) say about that.

As seen on that map, there are 2 chunks of the country that tend to vote for the French nationalists, but these are 2 distinct cases.

The actual rust belt hit by the loss of industry and relocations to Eastern Europe and Asia is the large Northeast area. That's mostly where the French state strategists and capitalist investors gradually gave up on industry, hence a high unemployment rate and a lot of despair.
The Paris urban area is almost like a yellow stain in there because the Parisian economy proper has been more diverse and widely based on services.

Now the Southeast of the country neighboring Italy (the Mediterranean coast) would be something different. While downtown Marseille has been decaying to some extent, most of the coast is actually doing ok. There's money out there, especially over the Riviera (Nice and surroundings along the coast) where a lot of better off retirees live. It's a bit like Florida in that respect. That's where you'd want your villa for retirement.
So a lot of people over there would vote for the nationalists to mainly say - keep immigrants away and leave us alone. There are too many migrants on this coast. We're getting sick of it.
That's about it. Lots of old people out there...
Otherwise, Marseille has had a plan to restore the excessively gritty bits of their central town. Hopefully, they implement it properly because it's actually a rather nice town, overall.

Very interesting. Thanks for the explanation.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Interesting choice of locales shown on that map of France. All fairly major cities except Molsheim (10,000 people) and Briord (1,000 people)!

You mean it's a little laughable. Bah, you know, the English media... Of course, you outright forget about their outrageous enraged tabloids and liars, but even their serious media such as the Economist sometimes do odd things.

I'd posted the 50 largest urban areas of the country very long ago there:

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...50&postcount=1

To be somewhat relevant, their map should point out at least the 20 largest, so we'd get a better idea of the trend in actual urban areas and their surroundings.

Urban areas proper must all be in yellow anyway. Nationalism mostly strikes in remote lower-density areas where the economy has been slower on average.