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  #121  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2007, 12:46 AM
SAguy SAguy is online now
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M1EK-If you have some newer data, let's see it. Slightly out-of-date data is much better than your anectdotal assertions (which can easily be counteracted by those of us who say, yes, San Antonio _does_ seem like a poor city).
Think about this, all the developments that are happening in around in S.A. wouldn't be happening if we were a poor city. Do you really think that developers would be opening upscale shops and restaurants if S.A. couldn't afford it? Yeah, we have tons of tourist that come to our city but that's just a fraction of whats needed to remain profitable and for that matter open. A lot has changed since the 90's and the city is working on changing the perception that you and more importantly the decision makers at corporate companies have of S.A.

Anyways, you should be able to find the info your looking for at www.sanantonio.gov Most of that info is from 2004 and 2005.
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  #122  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2007, 1:48 AM
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Mexico City has some of the most upscaled shopping and developments I have ever seen, but it is still considered a "poor city".
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Last edited by LouisianaRush; Feb 19, 2007 at 5:14 PM.
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  #123  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2007, 3:52 AM
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LouisianaRush-Mexico City has some of the most upscaled shopping and developments I have ever seen, but it is still considered a "poor city".
Again, how does this relate to S.A.?
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  #124  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2007, 5:13 PM
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Originally Posted by SAguy View Post
Think about this, all the developments that are happening in around in S.A. wouldn't be happening if we were a poor city.
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  #125  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2007, 5:16 PM
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Miami has more developments going up than all of Texas' cities combined, yet it is still considered a "poor city".
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  #126  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2007, 9:26 AM
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Large cities with lots of poor people

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Originally Posted by SAguy View Post
Where are you getting this information? You keep wanting to bring down our city but so far the information you've provided is old and out dated.
I think it is just a lingering stereotype that people have held on to about San Antonio for whatever reason. Nevertheless the fact that San Antonio has poor people should not preclude it from gaining entry into the NFL, MLB etc. And to suggest that it should is very narrow-minded of some. Because if having poor people did mean you couldn't support an NFL team then New York, Houston, Miami or Detroit would have no major league teams because of the fact that these towns are overflowing with poor people. And of course that logic is completely ridiculous.

In fact I'd like someone on here to name me one city the size of San Antonio or larger that doesn't have large numbers of poverty stricken people. Just one.
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  #127  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2007, 1:55 PM
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Those cities also have metro areas of over five million, so your point is mute. New York is in another league than all of those cities, so don't use them as an example.

Last edited by Trae; Feb 20, 2007 at 2:26 PM.
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  #128  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2007, 2:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bresilhac View Post
In fact I'd like someone on here to name me one city the size of San Antonio or larger that doesn't have large numbers of poverty stricken people. Just one.
It doesn't matter how many poor people your city has; it matters how many, and what type of, rich people it has (or at least middle-class people with enough disposable income to buy stuff).

New York has plenty of all types, which is why they can easily support two teams. If you could somehow move Austin's population inside the city limits of San Antonio, you MIGHT have the makings of a borderline NFL city.
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  #129  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2007, 5:16 PM
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Originally Posted by M1EK View Post
It doesn't matter how many poor people your city has; it matters how many, and what type of, rich people it has (or at least middle-class people with enough disposable income to buy stuff).

New York has plenty of all types, which is why they can easily support two teams. If you could somehow move Austin's population inside the city limits of San Antonio, you MIGHT have the makings of a borderline NFL city.
HaHaHa. Might have a borderline market??? If SA and Austin were combined into one market, you would have one of the biggest markets in the country with nearly 4 million people. That would be one of the top tier nfl markets, not "borderline" market as you suggest. Combining the markets would instantly put SA/Aus. into the top half of NFL markets, in terms of households AND population. And lets not forget these two cities are only an hour apart. Admittedly, SA itself is a borderline market (although bigger than some current NFL cities), but to suggest that SA and Austin combined is borderline or a small market is flat wrong. This would be a "large" market, or at the very least a large medium sized market. Look up the populations on both cities. SA- nearly 2 million. Austin- over 1.5 million. Cities are very close together. Do the math.
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  #130  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2007, 5:33 PM
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^ Yeah, but don't forget, Austin cares diddly about sports. The sports nuts here get their jollies from UT, not the NFL. Even I watched the Rose Bowl after six F-18's flew over our house on their way over DKR Stadium, and I never watch football. I actually didn't even watch the Superbowl this year. Who won again?

By the way, Austin and El Paso are the two largest cities in the United States without a professional sports team.
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  #131  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2007, 5:36 PM
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Understand Kevin, I was only disputing the myth that SA/Austin combined would be a "small, borderline" market, which is false if you compare the population to any other NFL city. 3.5 million - 4 million ranks in the top half of NFL markets, guaranteed.

As fast as Austin is growing, I could see them getting their own pro franchise one day. Probably would be NHL or MLB, since there is already NBA in SA and NFL team would likely be placed in SA.
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  #132  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2007, 10:02 PM
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No it doesn't. More like middle, but still pretty high up there. If you want to combine Austin - SA, you could combine Houston with Beaumont-PA (about 330,000), Victoria, Huntsville, even Lake Charles (200,000).

You could do the same for all of the other NFL cities that are around the same size as SA.
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  #133  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2007, 10:36 PM
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Has any one in this thread provided one shred of actual up to date statistics regarding San Antonio? Heck, what about the projected statistics for some 4-5 years from now when a team would hypothetically be playing here. Besides stereotypes, misinformed myths, and outdated figures what else is being used? Personal opinion? The discussion in this thread has spiraled down incredibly fast.
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  #134  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2007, 10:37 PM
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Having been born and raised in San Antonio for many years I will admit that there has been the perception of it being a big poor city...and in many cases there is relevant data to prove such. However, times are changing...just as they have for many other cities across America. All you have to do is look at all of the economic development happening to the city (Toyota...Increased Military Development...Tourism...Biotechnology...Oil & Gas...Communications) and you will soon realize why San Antonio will become a true economic force for the nation. With a burgeoning student population and opening of future campuses like Texas A&M @ SA the "perception" of it being a big poor city will continue to fade...that is unless of course people continue to want to view it as such...in which case there is NO data that I or any one else could or should do to prove otherwise. SA has much to be proud of...especially with a relatively low cost of living. I did a little research...since everyone's into numbers and what not and below is a list of what I found from the US Census bureau website:

I took five NFL cities that are bigger and smaller then SA's MSA to figure out how it compared against their economies.....

25. Denver, CO: Population Labor Force -- 1,776,385
Median income -- 54,896
Poverty percent (all people) -- 9.9%
Mean travel time to work -- 25.7 mins
Middle Class (b/w 35k & 99K) -- 446,808

29. Kansas City, KS: Population labor force -- 1,475,780
Median income -- 50,486
Poverty percent (all people) -- 10.4%
Mean travel time to work -- 22.4 mins
Middle Class -- 370,272

30. San Francisco, CA: Population labor force -- 3,225,651
Median income -- 65,382
Poverty percent (all people) -- 9.9%
Mean travel time to work -- 28.3 mins
Middle Class -- 661,004

33. Cincinnati, OH: Population labor force -- 1,568,616
Median income -- 48,144
Poverty percent (all people) -- 11.6%
Mean travel time to work -- 23.3 mins
Middle Class -- 382,571

37. Indianpolis, IN: Population labor force -- 1,213,475
Median income -- 49,888
Poverty percent (all people) -- 10.5%
Mean travel time to work -- 23.8 mins
Middle Class -- 316,181

38. San Antonio, TX: Population labor force -- 1,382,572
Median income -- 43,263
Poverty percent (all people) -- 16.2%
Mean travel time to work -- 24.9 mins
Middle Class -- 292,163

43. Charlotte, NC: Population labor force -- 1,136,742
Median income -- 47,104
Poverty percent (all people) -- 11.9%
Mean travel time to work -- 25.3 mins
Middle Class -- 265,150

45. New Orleans, LA: Population labor force -- 1,003,055
Median income -- 39,879
Poverty percent (all people) -- 17.8%
Mean travel time to work -- 26.5 mins
Middle Class -- 197,734

53. Buffalo, NY: Population labor force -- 888,734
Median income -- 42,315
Poverty percent (all people) -- 12.7%
Mean travel time to work -- 20.3 mins
Middle Class -- 213,725

59. Jacksonville, FL: Population labor force -- 943, 249
Median income -- 47,323
Poverty percent (all people) -- 10.8%
Mean travel time to work -- 25.5 mins
Middle Class -- 239,521

154. Green Bay, WI: Population labor force -- 226,155
Median income -- 47,809
Poverty percent (all people) -- 9.5%
Mean travel time to work -- 19.1 mins
Middle Class -- 60,989

While the above doesn't prove or disprove anything...it at least shows that SA is inline with many other cities with NFL teams.

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet...s=190056554421

http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/midd...soverview.html

http://wireless.fcc.gov/wlnp/documents/top100.pdf
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  #135  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2007, 1:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Trae View Post
No it doesn't. More like middle, but still pretty high up there. If you want to combine Austin - SA, you could combine Houston with Beaumont-PA (about 330,000), Victoria, Huntsville, even Lake Charles (200,000).

You could do the same for all of the other NFL cities that are around the same size as SA.

No, because Victoria and Lake Charles are further away from Houston than Austin/SA are apart.

However, I do agree that Victoria "could" be considered part of Houston's Market. I would think that would stretch from Victoria over to Orange.

How many NFL sized cities (for this example let's say SA) have another major league sized city (for example Austin) right at their doorstep. Not many. Name me 2 1.5 million plus cities 1 hour apart. That is where the Victoria, Lake Charles argument falls apart. Those are tiny towns compared to Austin.
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  #136  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2007, 1:26 AM
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Agzilla, that is a good start, but let's remember the cost of living is much lower in San Antonio that many of those cities. Wages are much higher in California for example, but housing is 3-5 times higher in some severe cases.
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  #137  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2007, 3:18 AM
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Originally Posted by NBTX11 View Post
No, because Victoria and Lake Charles are further away from Houston than Austin/SA are apart.

However, I do agree that Victoria "could" be considered part of Houston's Market. I would think that would stretch from Victoria over to Orange.

How many NFL sized cities (for this example let's say SA) have another major league sized city (for example Austin) right at their doorstep. Not many. Name me 2 1.5 million plus cities 1 hour apart. That is where the Victoria, Lake Charles argument falls apart. Those are tiny towns compared to Austin.
I can't give you that, but I can give many cities that are closer together that make up five million plus.
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  #138  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2007, 3:32 AM
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^^There are 8 total cities with 5 million plus, and 12 total with 4 million plus, so a combined SA/Austin would rank around 14th or 15th in the US in terms of metro population, if they combined metros. (I know, they aren't currently combined)

1 New York–Northern New Jersey–Long Island NY–NJ–PA 18,747,320
2 Los Angeles–Long Beach–Santa Ana CA 12,923,547
3 Chicago–Naperville–Joliet IL–IN–WI 9,443,356
4 Philadelphia–Camden–Wilmington PA–NJ–DE–MD 5,823,233
5 Dallas–Fort Worth–Arlington TX 5,819,475
6 Miami–Fort Lauderdale–Pompano Beach FL 5,422,200
7 Houston–Sugar Land–Baytown TX 5,280,077
8 Washington–Arlington–Alexandria DC–VA–MD–WV 5,214,666
9 Atlanta–Sandy Springs–Marietta GA 4,917,717
10 Detroit–Warren–Livonia MI 4,488,335
11 Boston–Cambridge–Quincy MA–NH 4,411,835
12 San Francisco–Oakland–Fremont CA 4,152,688
13 Riverside–San Bernardino–Ontario CA 3,909,954
14 Phoenix–Mesa–Scottsdale AZ 3,865,077
15 Seattle–Tacoma–Bellevue WA 3,203,314
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  #139  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2007, 3:44 AM
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That list is crap. Look where San Francisco and Washington D.C. are. Let's use CSA's instead. When we use CSA's, Austin - San Antonio would be number 11 or 12, though there is a huge drop off between 10 and 11.

Last edited by Trae; Feb 21, 2007 at 3:59 AM.
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  #140  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2007, 3:55 AM
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Why not just use facts and be done with it. Get rid of all these what if's.

What if's don't bring in any sports teams.
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