Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[Orlando]

According to this Forbes article, SLC has the worst air quality in the U.S., and its because of motor vehicle pollution. It then starts blaming the wide streets with lack of bike lanes.

However, in all these recent news articles about SLC's inversion/winter air pollution, no one has yet pointed out the problem that SPRAWL creates. It's land-use development that creates the greater dependency on the car. As we all know the super popular trend right now is still stand-alone office buildings next to a freeway. Denser more tight-knit developments closer to existing infrastructure and development are being outpaced by this appetite to develop on car-dependemt cheaper land. Regulations or better incentives have got to be offered to curb this destructive development pattern which causes so much air pollution. Stop widening the freeways, and place restrictions on these developments.

https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/7....jpg?fit=scale

[FullCircle]

According the the American Lung Association, SLC is not the city with the most polluted air in America, though it does make the top (worst) 25 in two of three categories.
https://www.lung.org/our-initiatives...ed-cities.html
We do get failing grades, and this in no way is me discounting anything you said Orlando, but Forbes number was that SLC had the worst air in the nation in January of 2018. That's one month of one year, and the winter is when we get the nasty particulate matter buildup, and why we're 8th worst in the nation in that category. Hyperbolism bothers me, even if it's to support a good point, and I think that article cherry picked data to be more sensational... imagine that.
But I'm hoping Herbert's plan to allocate $100 million for air quality gets approved and makes some strides to lessen air pollution. Tier 3 gasoline will help, but we need a lot more progress. More bike lanes, improved public transit, clustering future development around existing infrastructure, etc. will all help. Adopting California's standards for engines would be big and is sort of a no-brainer in my opinion.

[StevenF]

I would like to see the state EV credit return and hopefully, better than just $1000 like it was before. Get more people into electric cars and reduce the need for the oil refineries we have in North Salt Lake. Next would be to find ways to stop using coal power plants and more renewable energy resources. Double tracking Frontrunner and electrifying it would also be something I would like to see happen.

Unfortunately, I see the things above done sooner than changing the way people build and buy their homes out in the burbs. I think if Salt Lake is to continue to attract the winter Olympics; the State, Wasatch area counties and cities will need to get over party lines and stupidity and work on our air quality.

[zurich]

I didn't read the Forbes article, but I am assuming they also failed to emphasize that SLC is one of just a handful of cities where it has a much higher altitude and a massive wall (mountains) trapping the pollution. Doesn't every city like this have that problem? - Mexico City is horrible, Denver is not great. But at the same time, whoever was the genius in designing SLC in the early days with oil refinery's located just north of the airport were complete morons. If anything these should shut down immediately, or move 50 miles west/southwest. If you consider the financial gain from improved air quality and new development to take its place, I have no idea why they still exist. Someone is getting paid in their back pockets. Those combined with enforcing the gas tax and strict auto emissions like California would improve the air quality tremendously. However, I get the impression, debate and red tape will take over and 20-years from now the result will be the same or worse. Hope I am wrong...

[taboubak]

Ya I couldn't agree with you more on that one. The refineries there are horrible and way to close to downtown. They definitely need to be rebuilt elsewhere. That would open up a ton of new land for urban housing close to downtown and drastically cut down air pollution.

[StevenF]

Originally Posted by taboubak

Ya I couldn't agree with you more on that one. The refineries there are horrible and way to close to downtown. They definitely need to be rebuilt elsewhere. That would open up a ton of new land for urban housing close to downtown and drastically cut down air pollution.

Utah's next superfund locations. I hope these are some of the first to go as more and more people switch to electric cars in the coming decade. Tesla sold almost 140,000 Model 3's in 2018. It may not be much when you think about how many cars in the US and Canada are sold each year but think about what it will be in 2-5 years. There are many other car makers scheduled to come out with all-electric cars in 2020 and 2021. When that happens I can see some of these refineries struggling and possibly start to shut down. Of course, that depends on if these refineries don't start getting more government handouts in the form of subsidies.

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by Orlando

According to this Forbes article, SLC has the worst air quality in the U.S., and its because of motor vehicle pollution. It then starts blaming the wide streets with lack of bike lanes.

However, in all these recent news articles about SLC's inversion/winter air pollution, no one has yet pointed out the problem that SPRAWL creates. It's land-use development that creates the greater dependency on the car. As we all know the super popular trend right now is still stand-alone office buildings next to a freeway. Denser more tight-knit developments closer to existing infrastructure and development are being outpaced by this appetite to develop on car-dependemt cheaper land. Regulations or better incentives have got to be offered to curb this destructive development pattern which causes so much air pollution. Stop widening the freeways, and place restrictions on these developments.

https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/7....jpg?fit=scale

Well it’s getting to the point that you can only afford to live in salt lake if you make over 80k and don’t mind 1 bedroom or under 28k and have most of your rent subsidized... so everyone drives out to Utah county where they can afford to live.

[wrendog]

Figured this was an appropriate picture based on current discussion (from reddit)

[Hatman]

I will be happy to see the oil refineries get rebuilt as something else, but that won't have much of an impact on air quality. The refineries are only responsible for 3% of the air pollution along the Wasatch Front, whereas vehicle emissions are responsible for nearly half of all pollution, 48%. The rest of the pollution comes from heavy industries (10%), electricity production, and home/building heating.

We can argue about the percentages, but I think they're pretty close to being right. Source:
https://kutv.com/sponsored/ucair/deb...-quality-myths

I think most people hate the refineries as a way of moral justification.
"Sure I'm driving a car, and I know that causes pollution, but at least I'm not like those guys at the oil refineries! They are causing the real problems!"
While all the while we keep going about in our habitual ways, spreading pollution wherever we go, and avoiding making the real corrections that would make a real difference...
... such as buying an electric car (even a cheap one just for commuting), taking transit, better insulating your house, adding solar panels, combining trips, biking or walking instead of driving, etc.
Nothing is inevitable. There doesn't need to be pollution, we just accept that there is and don't even try. We are the problem.

[Orlando]

Amen!

[StevenF]

I totally agree. Most of us as individuals don't see our personal impact on the environment as an issue. I once told someone about how a company in Europe was developing a water recycling technology for showers. It would reuse 90% of the water and spin out 10% behind the wall to remove the dirty particulates. He then said that did not matter as there is no sign of water issues in the Idaho Falls area and he saw no need for the technology for his personal use. This was over 5 years ago and now that he has a wife and kids with a home of his own I would love to see if his views have changed. But the fact is most people just don't see their individual impact as an issue.

Then there are those like me that do but financially I am unable to purchase an electric car. I don't own my own home for solar power.

My wife does take the bus to and from work, but that is easy since she just rides the 54 bus to Murray Central as she works at IMC. My wife and I do our best to keep school and jobs within 5-10 miles from where we live. With my wife working at IMC and my kids going to AISU, it would be great to find a place close enough to both so walking is possible.

[Always Sunny in SLC]

Originally Posted by StevenF

I totally agree. Most of us as individuals don't see our personal impact on the environment as an issue. I once told someone about how a company in Europe was developing a water recycling technology for showers. It would reuse 90% of the water and spin out 10% behind the wall to remove the dirty particulates. He then said that did not matter as there is no sign of water issues in the Idaho Falls area and he saw no need for the technology for his personal use. This was over 5 years ago and now that he has a wife and kids with a home of his own I would love to see if his views have changed. But the fact is most people just don't see their individual impact as an issue.

Then there are those like me that do but financially I am unable to purchase an electric car. I don't own my own home for solar power.

My wife does take the bus to and from work, but that is easy since she just rides the 54 bus to Murray Central as she works at IMC. My wife and I do our best to keep school and jobs within 5-10 miles from where we live. With my wife working at IMC and my kids going to AISU, it would be great to find a place close enough to both so walking is possible.

Well said. I will bite my tongue since my comments would cover such broad topics it would trigger the purity police on this forum. I will say that has always cracked me up, I think some would rather have this forum silent for days or even weeks versus having it veer off topic for a day. Nothing but respect for the purists out there.

[Always Sunny in SLC]

Originally Posted by Hatman

I will be happy to see the oil refineries get rebuilt as something else, but that won't have much of an impact on air quality. The refineries are only responsible for 3% of the air pollution along the Wasatch Front, whereas vehicle emissions are responsible for nearly half of all pollution, 48%. The rest of the pollution comes from heavy industries (10%), electricity production, and home/building heating.

We can argue about the percentages, but I think they're pretty close to being right. Source:
https://kutv.com/sponsored/ucair/deb...-quality-myths

I think most people hate the refineries as a way of moral justification.
"Sure I'm driving a car, and I know that causes pollution, but at least I'm not like those guys at the oil refineries! They are causing the real problems!"
While all the while we keep going about in our habitual ways, spreading pollution wherever we go, and avoiding making the real corrections that would make a real difference...
... such as buying an electric car (even a cheap one just for commuting), taking transit, better insulating your house, adding solar panels, combining trips, biking or walking instead of driving, etc.
Nothing is inevitable. There doesn't need to be pollution, we just accept that there is and don't even try. We are the problem.

Well said indeed. *My self control against off topic tangents has run out* The insidious part of pollution is once you have legalized offloading your pollution or "costs" associated with driving then you lose the incentive to make changes even if you are suffering from that pollution just like everyone else. Your choice to bike, for instance, does not change substantially the impact your lungs feel from pollution. It could also be arguably said that you suffer more because you are inhaling more of that particulate matter. This really should not be a partisan issue because no political party has it in their philosophy that making others incur the costs of their economic choices is acceptable even if their policies over the years don't reflect that.

[Orlando]

Any development news?

[JMK]

Hi Grade Apartments
2160 S W Temple, Salt Lake City, UT 84115




Drone Video
https://www.facebook.com/PentalonCon...5602972641107/

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[StevenF]

Originally Posted by wrendog

Figured this was an appropriate picture based on current discussion (from reddit)

Small fire at the Holly refinery in Bountiful.

[Pencil]

[EPdesign]

bad news on the second half of the Phase 2 Block 67 site. I can’t share details but don’t be too excited about phase 2

[FullCircle]

My understanding was that phase I was dependent on phase II, so that would suggest the entire project is in jeopardy. You can't share any hints at all?

[Pencil]

Please don’t tell me this project isn’t going to happen!!