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  #11601  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2019, 4:10 AM
Gat-Train Gat-Train is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Doesn’t refute my point.
Not tryna refute your point, but rather point out that there's an area of the city that needs a serious overhaul. Definitely an opportunity for affordable housing and other services, much more so than a rather small strip of land over an active rail line.
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  #11602  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2019, 4:28 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Cyrville Road is one the worst examples of an obliterated former rural village replaced with totally car oriented exurban style low grade industrial, retail and services development. It will take decades to clean up this mess. It is the Greber Plan apocalypse zone.
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  #11603  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2019, 11:02 AM
kmcamp kmcamp is offline
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Originally Posted by Gat-Train View Post
Most of Cyrville road is autoshops, car washes, gas stations and car dealerships. Definitely an ideal location for rapid transit.
Oddly enough, so was Westboro 40 years ago. There may be yet hope for Cyrville
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  #11604  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2019, 12:17 PM
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The Cyrville area has plenty of relatively cheap land available so selling air-rights makes little sense. And with the grade difference between the tracks and road, it would be quite expensive to build on top. The Scott Street trench is in a dense, expensive, highly desirable area and it would be fairly easy to build on top.

In other news, I drove by Blair today at around 7:30 am, and there were 4 double trains parked (one at the station (north side), two just west of the platform (both tracks) and one on the south track around the Frontier tower).

Either preparing for Sunday service launch (I thought whatever day of the week it was matched the "testing" day of the week, so maybe not), scenario testing (highly unlikely) or something went terribly wrong.

Last edited by J.OT13; Aug 19, 2019 at 12:50 PM.
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  #11605  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2019, 12:54 PM
kmcamp kmcamp is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
The Cyrville area has plenty of relatively cheap land available so selling air-rights makes little sense. And with the grade difference between the tracks and road, it would be quite expensive to build on top. The Scott Street trench is in a dense, expensive, highly desirable area and it would be fairly easy to build on top.

In other news, I drove by Blair today at around 7:30 am, and there were 4 double trains parked (one at the station (north side), two just west of the platform (both tracks) and one on the south track around the Frontier tower).

Either preparing for Sunday service launch (I thought whatever day of the week it was matched the "testing" day of the week, so maybe not), scenario testing (highly unlikely) or something went terribly wrong.
It's pretty safe bet it's the last one, despite Mr Mayor's sunny optimism that handover will happen this week.

But at least every week now is potentially handover week, and one of these days it will actually happen.
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  #11606  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2019, 1:07 PM
kmcamp kmcamp is offline
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Meanwhile in Toronto, looks like those Flexities still are quite unreliable, doesn't bode well for Ion. Different LRV model of course.

Toronto Star: TTC sees dramatic rise in streetcar maintenance orders.
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...ce-orders.html
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  #11607  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2019, 1:27 PM
OTownandDown OTownandDown is offline
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This is a classic example of 'noise perception' whereby intermittent noise is way worse than constant noise. It's a function of the number of noise events per minute/hour. Having lots of noise or hardly any is better than every few minutes. There's a sweet spot for maximum annoyance that the train seems to be tickling.

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Originally Posted by rocketphish View Post
Noisy LRT has Mechanicsville residents asking the city to hush it

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Updated: August 16, 2019



Lorrie Marlow, president of the Mechanicsville Community Association

LRT is too noisy for people who live near the rail trench between Tunney’s Pasture and Bayview stations.

The Mechanicsville Community Association says it’s collecting complaints from residents about the noise coming from the test running of the trains in the area.

It might be a quiet ride for passengers inside the electrified trains, but the sound coming from the wheels running over the rails tends to travel. In the Mechanicsville-Hintonburg area, the train travels in the old Transitway trench, which amplifies the sound.

The Rideau Transit Group (RTG) has been running its full fleet of Alstom trains on a regular basis in recent weeks as it tests the LRT system.

At peak times, trains will arrive at stations every five minutes or less. Fifteen double-car trains will run on the rail line at the busiest hours. Trains will run as early as 5 a.m. at the start of the operating day and as late as 2 a.m.

In a letter to the city posted on its website, the community association said residents couldn’t enjoy the outdoors, even from their balconies, because of the loud LRT. The letter also says it has become a health and safety issue if people are walking on the paths at night and can’t hear what’s going on around them or if people are simply trying to sleep. The community association also warns there could be an impact on property values.

The association says a low-income seniors residence is next to the LRT line and the seniors can’t enjoy their amenity space and socialize because they can’t hear each other over the train noise.

The “whisper quiet” promise of the trains isn’t the reality, says the group, which is calling on the city to complete more noise tests and continue monitoring.

Kitchissippi Coun. Jeff Leiper on Friday confirmed that the trains were “unacceptably loud” in some areas, particularly around Parkdale Avenue, where there’s a high-rise residential building, Parkdale Terrace.

Leiper said he had been working since April with rail bosses at the city about the noise and they would first try grinding the rails, which is a common maintenance technique for train systems. Leiper said he brought transportation general manager John Manconi to the site to gauge the noise.

“The city has acknowledged it’s too loud,” Leiper said, but he noted the sound levels were within LRT contract parameters.

If the rail grinding doesn’t quiet the trains, the city could install dampeners on the rails to absorb the sound, Leiper said.

The rail grinding could be done in short order, but it would take longer to install dampeners.

When Mechanicsville residents living in properties right next to the tracks were approached Friday, almost all townhouse residents said the noise didn’t bother them.

“It doesn’t bother me; the cars make more noise than that,” said Marc Cherfils, who lives on ground level a stone’s throw from the tracks, adding the noise was worse when he lived in Toronto and Montreal.

Ida Gabriele, a neighbourhood resident for 22 years, said she noticed the noise in the first week of testing, “but after that you get used to it” and it didn’t bother her when she was inside.

However, Lorrie Marlow, the community association president and author of the letter, says the greatest problem is for residents on upper floors of highrises.

Marlow said she found that the noise echoed or reverberated through the sunken trench where the trains go, causing a disturbance for residents with balconies overlooking the track.

“The fact that we are on such a busy corner, and we’ve had buses on here forever that never bothered us like this sound bothers us,” Marlow said. “It’s such an unusual and different noise, the peaks of it and the times that it happens. I think it’s definitely disturbing.”

RTG failed to hand over the completed LRT line by its deadline Friday. The city believes the handover will happen next week ahead of a possible public launch in September.

“The question is, do you delay the opening of LRT until you (fix the noise)?” Leiper said, but he was not asking for a further delay to the project, which is 450 days late.

“All I’m looking for is a commitment to fix the problem.”

If the rail grinding and sound dampeners don’t work, the city will have to consider installing noise barriers, Leiper said.

The city will want to find a solution since the Stage 2 LRT extension west of Tunney’s Pasture will continue in the Transitway trench until the rail line reaches a tunnel near the Sir John A. Macdonald Parkway. The trench west of Tunney’s Pasture passes through Champlain Park, Westboro Beach and Westboro.

Leiper agreed the city needed to find a solution before the trains ran farther west.

jwilling@postmedia.com
twitter.com/JonathanWilling

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...ity-to-hush-it
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  #11608  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2019, 1:37 PM
OTownandDown OTownandDown is offline
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Also, good on Jon Willing for examining both sides of the argument (i.e. the people who don't really have a problem). Definitely a fresh air moment from Joanne.

Also, on a clear night I can hear the ding from the train entering the station, which is about 900m from my back yard as the crow flies. AND on that day, the trains ran until 2am. It was only distracting for the day I could hear it, while I had insomnia and it kept me awake, and I haven't really heard it/been listening for it since.
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  #11609  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2019, 2:00 PM
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On CTV News Friday, they were above the rail line with a decibel meter, with readings reaching above 90. I wish they would have gone further down the trench near Westboro Station to make a proper comparison of the "before and after".
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  #11610  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2019, 2:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmcamp View Post
Meanwhile in Toronto, looks like those Flexities still are quite unreliable, doesn't bode well for Ion. Different LRV model of course.

Toronto Star: TTC sees dramatic rise in streetcar maintenance orders.
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...ce-orders.html
Since ION launched revenue service (so not counting the nearly 2 years delay due to train delivery), have they had any issues? So far, I've only heard of road accidents involving cars and trains.
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  #11611  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2019, 2:04 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Originally Posted by kmcamp View Post
Oddly enough, so was Westboro 40 years ago. There may be yet hope for Cyrville
I don't think Westboro ever sank to the Cyrville level after being absorbed into the city. Westboro village was never demolished to the degree that Cyrville has been.
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  #11612  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2019, 7:50 PM
kmcamp kmcamp is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I don't think Westboro ever sank to the Cyrville level after being absorbed into the city. Westboro village was never demolished to the degree that Cyrville has been.
I didn't say that it wasn't a faint hope
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  #11613  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2019, 9:27 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
The Cyrville area has plenty of relatively cheap land available so selling air-rights makes little sense.
Which is why I said in some cases public sector uses would be better. Lots of land available, doesn't mean you simply waste the land or the air rights. There's a ton of value in land around the station. And air rights should be viewed in the context of the goal to maximize density near the station.
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  #11614  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2019, 9:36 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by Gat-Train View Post
Not tryna refute your point, but rather point out that there's an area of the city that needs a serious overhaul. Definitely an opportunity for affordable housing and other services, much more so than a rather small strip of land over an active rail line.
I agree.

Not too worried though. It's an area that's going to take 10-20 years to fix. But I can see it happening, bit by bit. Land inside the greenbelt and near high quality transit is getting rarer by the day.

I think Richcraft was holding off on construction till the Confederation Line was finished, because proximity to transit was the biggest USP, and that was hard to push with no frequent transit service on offer. I expect they'll ramp up again. And with home prices going up, there aren't too many places you can get a condo right beside the LRT and not pay >$300k for a shoebox.

I also expect the Queensway Corporate Campus will start seeing development with downtown office rates rising and the LRT improving accessibility. Two small office buildings were built in the last 8 years across the street. Development is coming, but displacement from downtown isn't going to come until rates in the core go up a bit.

Also, there's the big question of what happens with St. Laurent. It's within walking distance and has a transit hub station. If the Morguard decides to redevelop it, a lot of residential and commercial demand would go there before being pushed a stop east.
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  #11615  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2019, 3:56 AM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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So, this reddit thread exists...: https://www.reddit.com/r/ottawa/comm...e_on_trial_run

I'm kind of skeptical about it because it sounds like just a rehashing of what was in the news back in June with a little more fear mongering sprinkled on top.
So far they haven't said anything that could definitely prove their claims, but I wonder if any of the other members here (or on reddit) are able to corroborate any of their claims of the 12-day test requirements being loosened, or that any of it would amount to a risk to passenger safety (over just being unreliable).
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  #11616  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2019, 3:58 AM
Bytown Bytown is offline
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It’s questionable to say the least, but someone on Reddit is claiming insider info that the trains haven’t been able to make it past Day 6 or so, and that the City is now resuming the 12 days from Day of issue rather than Day 0. Take it with a mountain of salt, but figured i’d ask if anyone else could corroborate.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ottawa/comm..._on_trial_run/

EDIT: Looks like OCCheetos beat me to it!
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  #11617  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2019, 10:46 AM
kmcamp kmcamp is offline
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Originally Posted by Bytown View Post
It’s questionable to say the least, but someone on Reddit is claiming insider info that the trains haven’t been able to make it past Day 6 or so, and that the City is now resuming the 12 days from Day of issue rather than Day 0. Take it with a mountain of salt, but figured i’d ask if anyone else could corroborate.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ottawa/comm..._on_trial_run/

EDIT: Looks like OCCheetos beat me to it!
I actually do believe they probably haven't reset all the way back to 0. I don't believe that's as scandalous as being made out to be depending on the conditions of the failure and I don't think safety is at risk, just convenience.

I also feel like not all the reliability issues will be solved before opening. But given how bad the buses are I'll take my chances
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  #11618  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2019, 11:36 AM
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'Like a CF-18 fighter jet': LRT noise disturbing condo dwellers
Promise of 'quieter neighbourhoods' hasn't come to pass for some residents near Confederation Line

Joanne Chianello · CBC News
Posted: Aug 20, 2019 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: 3 hours ago



The Confederation Line trains pass through an open trench as they travel between Tunney's Pasture and Bayview stations. This is the view from a balcony at 215 Parkdale Ave.

"Quieter neighbourhoods."

That's one of the promises the City of Ottawa made about its new $2.1-billion light rail system.

The electric-powered trains would be "significantly quieter than diesel-powered buses" and offer "ultra quiet operation both inside and out," the city pledged.

But for one neighborhood along the Confederation Line, the arrival of light rail has been anything but quiet.

"It sounds like a CF-18 fighter jet," said Ghassan Hammouri, who lives on the 14th floor of 215 Parkdale Ave., a condo building perched on the northern edge of the LRT trench, just east of Tunney's Pasture station.

Indeed, with the windows open, a passing train sounds more like a passing plane. The noise rises gradually to a deafening peak that makes normal conversation, concentrating on a task or even hearing the television all but impossible, residents say.


Jane Taylor likes to enjoy a morning coffee on her balcony with her dog by her side, but says the train noise has disturbed that ritual.

"I didn't envisage that it would be so loud," said Jane Taylor, who moved into the building two years ago.

Taylor has lived by the light rail track in Edmonton, so she doesn't have a problem with urban noises in general. But when the train goes by here, "you have to stop talking because you don't understand one another," she said.

Taylor likes to have breakfast on her balcony with her dog, Rosie, but the trains, which are currently undergoing intensive testing, have been a rude interruption.

"Some people have dinner outside on their balcony, and they've stopped doing that," said said. "It destroys your calm or your concentration."

Dave Owen has lived with his wife at 215 Parkdale for 25 years. They've lived with buses trundling back and forth in front of their building for years, with no issue. But this noise is different.

"What we're actually getting is these big peaks," Owen described. "The Royal Air Force Red Arrows went by last week, and that's exactly what it sounds like — there's a roar."

Once the Confederation Line is fully operational, trains will be making 500 trips in and out of Tunney's Pasture per day. During rush hour, trains will come and go every few minutes.

Residents of 215 Parkdale have told CBC the passing trains have forced them to close their windows and, for some, disturbed their sleep.

Some have had enough.

"I'm now thinking of moving," said Hammouri, who owns two units in the building. "The only problem is, I don't want to sell this place to some unsuspecting buyer who moves in.... I cannot in good conscience sell both my units without disclosing to the buyer that, 'By the way, those trains are going to keep you awake at night.' So, I'm stuck."

It's not just the residents at 215 Parkdale who say their peace has been shattered.

According to the Mechanicsville Community Association, residents along a swath of Scott Street east of Parkdale, including the folks in a low-income seniors' residence, have complained about the noise, too.

In a letter sent to Mayor Jim Watson last week, the community association asked for mitigation measures to quiet the LRT. These include grinding the rails to make them smoother, installing sound-dampening materials along the rail bed and the trench walls, and even slowing down the trains as they pass through the area.

The city contends that, based on a report from engineering consultant Novus, the noise generated by the train falls within acceptable limits.

Residents dispute that. For one thing, the decibel levels are presented as an average over a 16-hour period, which they say doesn't reflect the frequent, sharp rises in volume that come when a train passes.

Also, the noise-level testing, which was conducted from inside a unit at the Parkdale condo building, was done with the windows closed. Residents say that doesn't accurately represent the sonic disruption, particularly in the summer months.

City officials do acknowledge the problem is exacerbated by the trench between Tunney's Pasture and Bayview stations.

According to a statement attributed to Michael Morgan, the city's director of rail construction, the trench is too narrow for the sort of track used in other parts of the 12.5-kilometre Confederation Line, which are packed with crushed stone that dampens the noise of the trains. Instead, that section of the track required resilient rail fasteners, which reduce vibration at ground level but tend to increase the noise heard above.

Morgan's email confirmed that Rideau Transit Group, the consortium building the LRT, has committed to grinding the rail after the current trial run is finished, and said that work will continue as needed.

It's not clear whether that will be enough.

A 2010 engineering report prepared for the city had called for 2.4-metre sound barriers to be installed along part of the trench between Tunney's Pasture and Bayview. However, a subsequent report said the barriers wouldn't reduce noise, so they were never installed.

"I am nervous that it won't get done, so we need to keep the pressure on," said Kitchissippi Coun. Jeff Leiper of the mitigation measures.

At the same time, he said he understands why the city may be reluctant to slow the trains to address a "localized" problem. He said he'll be watching to make sure similar issues don't occur in the second phase of the project.

The LRT will extend along the same trench to Westboro and Dominion stations, and later in a new trench along Byron Avenue.

They're going to have to do whatever it takes to make sure that this level of noise is not recreated as we further down the trench," Leiper said. "This is an unacceptable level of noise."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...-lrt-1.5245185
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  #11619  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2019, 3:25 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Can't see the forest for the trees.
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  #11620  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2019, 3:42 PM
OTownandDown OTownandDown is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
On CTV News Friday, they were above the rail line with a decibel meter, with readings reaching above 90. I wish they would have gone further down the trench near Westboro Station to make a proper comparison of the "before and after".
I've always been a proponent of electric buses for this very reason.

I live on a 2nd floor on Bank Street, and buses starting from the stop outside my house reach 110 decibels at the exhaust vent which points towards my living room window. It reaches 70 decibels inside my living room, which is 5 decibels higher than the noise bylaw. But 'City Vehicles' are exempt.

But, it IS a freaking train. I mean... its a train. Nobody should have ever said 'whisper quiet'
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