Winnipeg's Exchange District | East/West | Development

[esquire]

Originally Posted by tree

People seem to really hate the Police Credit Union and Free Press Building Expansion (on 300 Carlton).

I don't mind attempts at blending in with the surrounding area in some cases - I don't know what may have been demolished for those projects but I'd prefer it any time over the risk of something like 763 Portage (probably my least favorite building in the city for some reason - first time I really noticed a new building and knew I hated it).

Some of these 'fake old' buildings aren't bad. Its a kind of compromise I think. It could be worse no?

I think I hate on those two buildings you mentioned more than most, but ultimately it comes down to quality. As I said before, I think it's a lot harder to pull off a neotraditional style than a building that is unabashedly contemporary. Materials, skills, design strike me as pricier when you want do something that is designed to fit in with older neighbours.

That said, it's certainly still possible to do it right. There is a thread in another subforum that is filled with mindblowing examples of new buildings in traditional styles, but with Winnipeg's reality of high construction costs I'm not sure how realistic any of those projects are here.

The thread is here, it goes on for dozens of pages and it's really quite amazing. http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=176535 (I recommend skipping to the last page and scrolling back since the thread is 8 years old and many of the older photo links are broken)

As for 763 Portage, it is godawful, there is no other way of putting it. A modern approach to design is no assurance that you won't end up with a turkey like that... that's just a building that went up on what I'm assuming must have been a shoestring budget in a very prominent location.

[1ajs]

Before the police credit Union. Is was a dark brick late 70's early 80's 2 story building with a juniors and a drive through on it simlar foot print to wats there now

As for free press addition it was a parking lot before they did the adition

[SKYSTHELIMIT]

Looking at those past shots of the corner. I can't help but feel a loss for the old main firehouse. Don't get me wrong I love old market square but I do have a soft spot these great buildings. Winnipeg has done a great job of repurposing a lot of them, but the crown jewel would have been nice to still have.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by SKYSTHELIMIT

Looking at those past shots of the corner. I can't help but feel a loss for the old main firehouse. Don't get me wrong I love old market square but I do have a soft spot these great buildings. Winnipeg has done a great job of repurposing a lot of them, but the crown jewel would have been nice to still have.

Oh yes, that was a huge loss. Old Market Square is nice, but I would have preferred the old firehall.

[tree]

Originally Posted by esquire

I think I hate on those two buildings you mentioned more than most, but ultimately it comes down to quality. As I said before, I think it's a lot harder to pull off a neotraditional style than a building that is unabashedly contemporary. Materials, skills, design strike me as pricier when you want do something that is designed to fit in with older neighbours.

That said, it's certainly still possible to do it right. There is a thread in another subforum that is filled with mindblowing examples of new buildings in traditional styles, but with Winnipeg's reality of high construction costs I'm not sure how realistic any of those projects are here.

The thread is here, it goes on for dozens of pages and it's really quite amazing. http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=176535 (I recommend skipping to the last page and scrolling back since the thread is 8 years old and many of the older photo links are broken)

As for 763 Portage, it is godawful, there is no other way of putting it. A modern approach to design is no assurance that you won't end up with a turkey like that... that's just a building that went up on what I'm assuming must have been a shoestring budget in a very prominent location.

Thanks for that link - some of the larger buildings / apartments are INCREDIBLE. (the houses too, but because those are private homes I'm assuming cost / surrounding area less of an issue)

I'm guessing based on costs though that a better route for this city is to save what we have and build around that. The Police Credit Union and FP Addition look pretty cheap compared to some of those but I wonder if at the time building anything being built at that time that even tried to be cognizant of the surrounding area was a step in the right direction.

[tree]

Looking at more pictures of the Exchange and crusiing around there I wish I had millions to invest because damn there's so much potential there. Our downtown is too large for sure so easy to find things and say "why hasn't that been fixed up!?"

I'll join the side that doesn't mind seeing the small gas station / bodegos go but not sure if the glass box shown is the best idea. Would hate for that to become a single private residence. Not sure about the size but why couldn't 90 Albert just addon a section (becoming about 'double' in size, maybe about leaving about half the patio area left) and make it more apartments or something.

Just seems like that whole corner is going to be chopped off for like 1 business and 1 person's apartment/condo. Would prefer something more dense.

(quick made photoshop of what I'm trying to describe - rounding it out a bit if needed or could just have the north facing wall flat with some modern glass siding of sort. Empty glass building area just seems cheap - at least from the drawings shown)

[biguc]

Originally Posted by tree

Thanks for that link - some of the larger buildings / apartments are INCREDIBLE. (the houses too, but because those are private homes I'm assuming cost / surrounding area less of an issue)

I'm guessing based on costs though that a better route for this city is to save what we have and build around that. The Police Credit Union and FP Addition look pretty cheap compared to some of those but I wonder if at the time building anything being built at that time that even tried to be cognizant of the surrounding area was a step in the right direction.

Part of the hate we heap on the Free Press addition isn't because it's poorly imitating its authentic neighbour, but because it's god awful pomo trash. In the era of the '80s and '90s when historical preservation caught on and modernist destruction fell by the wayside, architecture was captivated with uncalled for whimsy and ham-fisted, pointless derivativeness. That meant that a lot of what might have been faithful and contextual neotraditionalism ended up being turds clad in pink stucco with a cornice and shaped like a guitar, because guitars are fun!

In the case of the Free Press addition, they showed considerable restraint by clunkily mimicking the roof line and ground floor, and putting different shaded stripes of shit-colored stucco to ape the stone and window details of the original. But you have to appreciate how fun and whimsical is was, to make a building that looked vaguely similar to the original, but with the same materials as a house in up-and-coming Whyte Ridge.

(For context on how little a grip people had on respect in those days, they bought millions of copies of an album called "African Tapestries" made by a white Torontonian, because layering synthesizers with appropriated music and monkeys hooting is so whimsical and fun.)

Across the street, the Air Canada building--though a much better looking building--fell victim to the same kind of silliness. It was claimed to look like a maple leaf from the sky. Get it!? Because it's a Canadian airline! You'll see it from the sky when you fly in their planes! But it doesn't look like a maple leaf from above--it looks like a cube with triangles sticking out of it, which is exactly what it looks like from the ground.

Anyway, we were left with a planet sprinkled with this kind of junk.



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...2_Building.jpg




http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/a...ed-decades-bad


You'll notice they absolutely died for classical columns, pasting them on anywhere and everyhwere. Part of that is that columns were big in neo-classical architecture, and that was something that modernism wasn't into. So, it was partly an ode to older building styles, and present in what passed for historically sensitive design. But oh, my God: how whimsical is it that they don't hold up shit and make no sense? So whimsical, so fun.

Even Vancouver's library falls victim to this blunder. Once upon a time, people died for that building. It does have some virtues. But it's also cringeworthy. Why does it look like the Colosseum? What do blood sports have to do with free reading material? It's just so whimsical.

Comedy has no place in architecture. Jokes become less funny with each telling, and become grating when everyone is telling them. Buildings are meant to last decades, and for us to see them constantly. A clever moment of whimsy will not last, and making the building equivalent of "Talk to the hand," or "WHAASSSUUUUPP!" turned out to be downright abuse.

So that, on a broader scope, is why I hate the Free Press addition.

[1ajs]

It's some who's moving to wpg from Calgary along with their buisnes from what I know all 3rd hand info

[esquire]

Originally Posted by biguc

Across the street, the Air Canada building--though a much better looking building--fell victim to the same kind of silliness. It was claimed to look like a maple leaf from the sky. Get it!? Because it's a Canadian airline! You'll see it from the sky when you fly in their planes! But it doesn't look like a maple leaf from above--it looks like a cube with triangles sticking out of it, which is exactly what it looks like from the ground.

I've heard a few people mention that... it was a bit of an urban myth, fortunately one that is easily debunked with Google Maps. But the fact that people believed this to be the case (a large office building shaped like the corporate logo of the primary tenant...really) certainly said something about the state of design in those days.

Then again, that was the era that gave us stuff like this giant picnic basket as corporate headquarters for a picnic basket company in Ohio, so maybe that maple leaf myth didn't seem quite so outlandish.

[Biff]

I guess there might be a design competition for the site. Check out 546...Architects ideas. Looks more like what we are thinking.

From Twitter:
546 FAUM studio presents proposals for WPGarchcentre @Bodegoes site.

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by trueviking

those buildings are not in the exchange district though. What I don't understand is that there are quite prescriptive exchange district design guidelines.

I understand the contrast is what its going for but that's just so easy. The site deserves richness and texture. Just because it has curtain wall doesn't mean its good. It still needs to be designed with sensitivity. Especially when its a person's house. Is all that glass going to be left open?

There has to be some recognition that it sits on the most central site of a national historic neighbourhood....does that context mean nothing?

this is the type of architecture I would like to see as modern insertions into the exchange district.

First off, that is hot. I love it.

However, as much as I like the principle of having the contemporary mimicking/honoring the historical, some complete departures are ok. Whether Toronto or Vancouver, mixed in with the old as well as the new-mimicking-old, you will have strong, beautiful modern designs.

These designs may contrast strongly to the old but some of that randomness helps build a lively eclecticism for the neighbourhood.

Most importantly, it stretches the design parameters for the neighbourhood. If we tie most modern design into the existing historical and operate under that mandate going forward, we've strongly limited the design flexibility of the entire neighbourhood. If purely modern design enters the neighbourhood, even if it clashes, we've now created a much broader, more creative range in which new construction/design can incorporate the existing. Hell, it could fit perfectly as the neighbourhood develops further later on!

Using a scale of 1-10, 1 being historical, 5 being historical modern, 10 being purely modern, imagine that pure modern is discouraged from the neighbourhood. Any development going forward would be likely limited to the 2-4 range. Sometimes this can result in design harmony, other times it's tragically limiting. In Winnipeg, where we do not have people fighting each other to live downtown yet (nor corporate or retail tenants), we need to liven up and make the most of our chances.

Maybe building a "10" building or two may seem out of place, but now anything thereafter has that 2-8 range to operate within. It can keep the feel of the neighbourhood while stretching its limits. Suddenly, after a few 6's or 8's get built, that 10 will fit in nicely.

Hope that rambling makes some sense...

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Biff

I guess there might be a design competition for the site. Check out 546...Architects ideas. Looks more like what we are thinking.

From Twitter:

That looks like it's in the Faculty of Architecture... are those actual proposals or student-led design concepts?

[TimeFadesAway]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

Before the police credit Union. Is was a dark brick late 70's early 80's 2 story building with a juniors and a drive through on it simlar foot print to wats there now

As for free press addition it was a parking lot before they did the adition

Before the Junior's building was the Princess Block, which was torn down in the late 50's. Too bad.

[Biff]

Originally Posted by esquire

That looks like it's in the Faculty of Architecture... are those actual proposals or student-led design concepts?

I didn't put the text in before the photo and then the Internet went down. I have edited it. Presentations for Bodegoes site at UofM Faculty of Architecture.

[Urban recluse]

Damn, I wish 104 Princess would sell.

[lilwayne]

http://www.winnipegsun.com/2017/04/2...-river-college

Red River College’s Exchange District campus is poised to expand and, to do so, the school will launch into what it calls the largest fundraising campaign in its 80-year history.

RRC officials, along with federal Natural Resources Minister Jim Carr, Education Minister Ian Wishart and Mayor Brian Bowman announced plans Thursday for a bold expansion in the heart of the downtown campus, the $95.4-million Innovation Centre.

The development, a four-storey, 100,000 sq. ft., facility along the so-called Innovation Alley, figures to entertain 1,200 new students in the area of innovation, start-ups and entrepreneurship.

“It’s a teaching centre primarily, but the difference is start-up companies will come in with their business opportunities and challenges, and they’ll be turned into assignments for students,” RRC president Paul Vogt said. “The students will learn by doing and they’ll learn from the leading-edge opportunities that are being faced in the sector.”

Vogt said the college has been looking into the need for such a facility for a couple of years through its business IT department and said “the demand is enormous.”

The demand is such that the college is entering into a fundraising campaign to raise $54.8 million on its own to go towards the final tab.

The federal government is kicking in $40.6 million, while the province backs the college with a loan guarantee up to $54.8 million, a funding model Wishart said is unique.

“What we’re really doing is standing there with the post-secondary as they go to the door of industry, not only to arrange the financing, but also in terms of the fundraising process,” Wishart said. “It’s a very strong message to industry that, yes, Red River is an important player. The industry has a long history of working with them in terms of getting the right training that they needed, now as a government we’re standing there with Red River saying ‘Yes, we’re supportive … and we’re here with them.’”

Carr said he was “very impressed” with the province’s guarantee.

“It’s important for the college, but also for downtown Winnipeg,” Carr said. “It’s a tangible way that the government of Canada can make significant investments in innovation at a college that is increasingly developing a national and an international reputation for excellence.”

The facility will be located on Elgin Avenue, west of Princess Street and will attach to the current Scott Fruit Warehouse, a 103-year-old heritage building that Vogt said “will be preserved in its entirety.”

Vogt said the hope is to have it completed by 2019 with shovels in the ground in the next 12 months.

dlarkins@postmedia.com

[sam_c]

Originally Posted by esquire

In my view, contemporary architecture complements historical buildings quite nicely. The worst thing is faux historic design that makes the area feel like a theme park or stage set.

Agreed! The Exchange District's character comes from its history - yes - but is also being shaped by it's newer and future tenants/residents. We are the ones paying property/business taxes, providing amenities, supporting local businesses. And we are the eyes and feet on the streets (walking dogs, picking up litter, light on in the windows of once-derelict buildings) that change the public's perception of safety and vibrance of the neighbourhood.

I digress – the current rendering for 90 Albert is from the very early stages. This will likely change as plans progress.

The main issue now is whether or not the current building at 98 Albert (Bodegoes) "should" get demolished to make way for new development. Essentially, the building's owners need to demolish 98 Albert to save 90 Albert – to make it accessible, and adhere to new codes (ie. add elevator shaft, etc.).

A somewhat similar argument to what's being discussed for the Market Lands (Public Safety Building). As the neighbourhood grows and changes, there will be growing pains. But there is huge potential. Don't mess this up Winnipeg! Sure, let's acknowledge and respect the past - while we look towards a flourishing, livable and enjoyable downtown community.

[Cyro]

Perspective image of proposed Innovation Center in relation to Main Campus..


CoverPage WpgSun

Although conceptual renders, I hadn't noticed the roof toop plaza on top of the Scott Fruit Warehouse......Innovative addition..

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

First off, that is hot. I love it.

However, as much as I like the principle of having the contemporary mimicking/honoring the historical, some complete departures are ok. Whether Toronto or Vancouver, mixed in with the old as well as the new-mimicking-old, you will have strong, beautiful modern designs.

These designs may contrast strongly to the old but some of that randomness helps build a lively eclecticism for the neighbourhood.

Most importantly, it stretches the design parameters for the neighbourhood. If we tie most modern design into the existing historical and operate under that mandate going forward, we've strongly limited the design flexibility of the entire neighbourhood. If purely modern design enters the neighbourhood, even if it clashes, we've now created a much broader, more creative range in which new construction/design can incorporate the existing. Hell, it could fit perfectly as the neighbourhood develops further later on!

Using a scale of 1-10, 1 being historical, 5 being historical modern, 10 being purely modern, imagine that pure modern is discouraged from the neighbourhood. Any development going forward would be likely limited to the 2-4 range. Sometimes this can result in design harmony, other times it's tragically limiting. In Winnipeg, where we do not have people fighting each other to live downtown yet (nor corporate or retail tenants), we need to liven up and make the most of our chances.

Maybe building a "10" building or two may seem out of place, but now anything thereafter has that 2-8 range to operate within. It can keep the feel of the neighbourhood while stretching its limits. Suddenly, after a few 6's or 8's get built, that 10 will fit in nicely.

Hope that rambling makes some sense...

I guess my point is just because something is curtain wall glass, doesn't mean its good...or even modern....it still needs to be designed sensitively. We seem to have this unquestioning default love of curtain wall. Use it and you're done. No more nuance required....say the words glass box and everyone loves it....but it can produce very bland buildings.

Punched windows can be every bit as modern and add a level of texture to the building. That site deserves more effort than uninspired curtain wall....it has nothing to do with how historic it is...its about design quality.

personally, I feel this site needs to respect the context more than the new red river as an example. The site warrants it in my opinion, as the centre of the historic neighbourhood.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

Wow, very cold.

Oh come on, those aren't bad at all, for Peguis Street.