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View Poll Results: What should be done to the WTC?
Keep building the current plan. 34 47.89%
Build the Twin Towers II. 28 39.44%
Other. 9 12.68%
Voters: 71. You may not vote on this poll

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  #121  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2009, 3:54 PM
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Originally Posted by TwinTowersForever View Post
He's not some random huy off the street. This excerpt from the wtc2011 site explains his qualifications

"Kenneth L. Gardner, a graduate of Rutgers College of Engineering specializing in structural design, worked on various design projects with the late Herbert Belton, A.I.A. For more than 20 years, Mr. Gardner has built design and marketing models of some of the most prominent construction projects in New York and New Jersey, including The Trump Organization, The Related Companies, and The Macklowe Organization. "
He is a structural engineer and a professional model builder. How the hell does that make him a licensed architect?
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  #122  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2009, 4:00 PM
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Engineers are not architects; they notoriously design absolutely hideous buildings.
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  #123  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2009, 4:07 PM
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Originally Posted by TwinTowersForever View Post
He's not some random huy off the street. This excerpt from the wtc2011 site explains his qualifications

"Kenneth L. Gardner, a graduate of Rutgers College of Engineering specializing in structural design, worked on various design projects with the late Herbert Belton, A.I.A. For more than 20 years, Mr. Gardner has built design and marketing models of some of the most prominent construction projects in New York and New Jersey, including The Trump Organization, The Related Companies, and The Macklowe Organization. "
It also would help if he was a Professional Engineer (P.E.). You know, a engineer who is actually certified to design actual structures and not just models. Basically, you're not a engineer until you receive you're P.E.

Not that I'm trying to insult any other engineers out there.
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  #124  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2009, 4:07 PM
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Originally Posted by CGII View Post
from curbed:

Port Authority Finally Finishing Up

The Port Authority has completed site prep and infrastructure work for all three of the towers that will rise from the East Bathtub at the World Trade Center site—that's Towers 2, 3, and 4, for those that like things to be numbered—and they'll finally turn over full site control to developer Larry Silverstein "in the next few days." Glad tidings! And a mere eight months since the Authority had to start shelling out $300k a day to Silverstein in penalties—a total that comes to, in our very rough estimate, $67.5 million. Though of course, none of this resolve the slapfight between the PA and Silverstein, who also wants the Authority to help finance construction on the towers. The Architects Newspaper has a nice behind-the-scenes take on the current insanity.

Meantime, the memorial portion of the site is moving along, and officials vow to have portions of it—the waterfall memorials and 75% of the of the white oak trees—ready for the 10th anniversary in 2011. Says a Port Authority exec, cryptically, "With all the progress that is taking place on the site, it's not even Ground Zero anymore."
And there you have it. There is officially no turning back, and no talk of reconsideration for the Twin Towers II. You don't realize that Larry Silverstein is the one busting his ass for this site, not Gardner, not the families. Give the new WTC a chance, because it's too late for change now. The proposed plan was brought to surface too late into the construction process, and had little or no care for the site's infrastructure at all.

Think about the proposed memorial for a moment. Why would you want to recreate that? It will make it look as it the towers had fallen again, twisted metal and burn marks almost ten stories up. I think pools are a better idea.

And if all else fails, and you still believe the towers can be rebuilt, post some information from a valid source, from either the Port Authority or Silverstein Properties, about them reconsidering the towers.
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  #125  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2009, 4:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Lecom View Post
He is a structural engineer and a professional model builder. How the hell does that make him a licensed architect?
Well let's see. He's a structural engineer and he's designed prjects that were built. He knows architecture. But Lets ask the real question. How in the name of the lord is Libeskind, some polish guy, qualified to design the most important design in NY and America? We all do remember his first design dont we?

*mod edit* uncredited image deleted *mod edit*

that is the most god awful thing on earth. the ones who picked it behind closed doors didnt care until the entire city came out saying "this is crap"

so they had to redisign it completely b/c it was deemed "impossible to build"

the current plan is an epic fail. Larry silverstein didnt even want it. He called for rebuilding the towers but some dickhead politician told him to suck it up.
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Last edited by Lecom; Aug 20, 2009 at 4:41 PM. Reason: deleted an uncredited image
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  #126  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2009, 4:13 PM
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Oh btw the site does belong to the public

Some are under the mistaken impression that redeveloping the World Trade Center is primarily a matter of private property rights. NOT SO. The contract that Mr. Silverstein signed to lease the Twin Towers required him to rebuild the Towers if they were destroyed. The Port Authority released him from that obligation. There is no conflict between Twin Towers and his contractual right to 10 million square feet of comparable space in comparable buildings. And, especially given the irregularities of the privitization to begin with, no one has a superior or even equal claim to the property than the public. The Executive Director of the Port Authority pledged at the time of the transfer: "We will continue to protect this outstanding public asset so that it can continue to flourish." That was an irrevocable promise.
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  #127  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2009, 4:24 PM
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Originally Posted by TwinTowersForever View Post
Well let's see. He's a structural engineer and he's designed prjects that were built. He knows architecture. But Lets ask the real question. How in the name of the lord is Libeskind, some polish guy, qualified to design the most important design in NY and America? We all do remember his first design dont we?
No, he built models of other people's designs. He was the lackey that made the pretty models in order to market the design. He is not qualified to design any kind of structure, nor has he. If he had, then he would be burnishing his credentials with a portfolio of his work. Herbert Belton was, but I don't think he got all that far in his design considering he died in 2005.

What do you have against some Polish guy?
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  #128  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2009, 4:33 PM
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We can all agree that Daniel Libeskind's first plan was BS from the start. However, the public didn't reject that plan, it was the New York City Police Department. The main tower raised safety concerns and had to be redesigned.

The public does not own any property at the WTC site. It was privatized and is, and is still currently owned by the Port Authority, a NJ/NY state agency, run by the STATES, not the public. Silverstein signed a 99 year lease on the site, and was obligated to rebuild the World Trade Center, not the towers. You're getting that mixed up. And, rebuilding the towers, as unfortunately stated many times over, isn't what the public wanted, neither did the US. It wasn't right for this country to rebuild like nothing ever happened, and that's why we had new designs.

Structurally-wise, there is no way you can redesign the towers with it's same facade. The hollow-tube design for the exterior walls was actually the initial load-bearing system for the building, with the core being the secondary. Antennas, especially a larger one, would require some sort of truss system, like the hat trusses in the original towers, one of the causes of their progressive collapses. Have you even took into consideration the placements on the site? WHERE are the PATH and 1 train going to go? HOW are you going to extent the bathtub with no land behind it to brace it on? Answer that before anything else, because we haven't got a response yet.
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  #129  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2009, 4:40 PM
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Originally Posted by TwinTowersForever View Post
Well let's see. He's a structural engineer and he's designed prjects that were built. He knows architecture.
...but he is STILL not a licensed architect. He did not design any projects on his own - he assisted with them. Guess what - I worked at an architecture firm (in fact, I worked at SOM and helped with the design of the current Freedom Tower). However, I'd never be stuck up enough to actually claim that I DESIGNED it. I also helped them build some models of it - but that would not make me think that somehow I am qualified to independently produce detailed site plans and then contact politicians to build them.

Quote:
But Lets ask the real question. How in the name of the lord is Libeskind, some polish guy, qualified to design the most important design in NY and America?
At least Libeskind's been to New York, unlike you. How dare you to have the nerve to be xenophobic and accuse a learned man of incompetence based on the fact that he's not from New York, when YOU have never even BEEN to New York?!

Quote:
We all do remember his first design dont we?

that is the most god awful thing on earth. the ones who picked it behind closed doors didnt care until the entire city came out saying "this is crap"

so they had to redisign it completely b/c it was deemed "impossible to build"
OK, that design was horrible indeed. But it's dead. Gone. Why even bring it up now?

And by the way, before joining our forum, you should have read the rules first. We do not allow images to be posted unless they have a source cited below:

"When posting others' photographs throughout the forum, it is every forumer's duty to properly credit the photographer and source. Improperly credited photo postings will be deleted by the moderation staff."
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/anno...hp?f=103&a=313

I deleted that photo from your post. Feel free to repost it with a source properly cited. In fact, you must do the same with the original post, but you're a new forumer and we're going easy on rules trespasses. But now you know, and please abide accordingly.
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  #130  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2009, 5:04 PM
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"At least Libeskind's been to New York, unlike you. How dare you to have the nerve to be xenophobic and accuse a learned man of incompetence based on the fact that he's not from New York, when YOU have never even BEEN to New York?!"



Actually I have been to New York thank you very much.

and if its that important I got that picture from photobucket
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  #131  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2009, 5:06 PM
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^^^ I’m pretty positive that Lecom has been to New York…..
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  #132  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2009, 5:07 PM
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Originally Posted by TwinTowersForever View Post
and if its that important I got that picture from photobucket
You STILL didn't bother to read the rules, I see?

"Merely citing Google, Flickr, Wikipedia or some other host or search engine is *not* sufficient for your photo post to qualify. If you don't have the required information about a photograph, then don't post it."

Besides, the original rendering was most definitely not created by photobucket. They stole the image too. Just because you're plaigarizing someone's plaigarizm, it doesn't make it right.
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  #133  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2009, 5:18 PM
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Originally Posted by TwinTowersForever View Post
Yes I am. Im not an 100% expert but the Twin Towers II could take over whats been done and is also paid for with the money being put into the Freedumb Tower.
This is not Lego Land professor. What you and your band of buddies are calling for is just downright unrealistic in so many ways and on so many levels. It’s simply not feasible or practical, and again the design for this pipe dream is just simply despicable.
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  #134  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2009, 5:32 PM
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I will also like to add that this proposal misses the boat in trying to capture what was the World Trade Center as a whole. The original was awkward yet fitting, beautiful yet brutal and dominant yet docile. Nothing will ever come close to repeating those attributes because times have changed and it’s not meant to be. It was unique in its own way and one of a kind, a true masterpiece from both spectrums. Loved it or hated it there was no arguing a sentimental value it contained to many who viewed it.

It’s time to move on yet always remember what once was yet welcome what will come to be. Stop trying to fight and uphill battle and come to the conclusion of hard reality. Take a moment to saver what you are seeing as it is one of the grandest construction sites in the world which will soon morph into some of the greatest buildings in the world.

At the same time stay in context to the fact that this is more about buildings but more importantly about what was really lost that day. You seem to forget that. Be realistic to the true loss and drop this materialistic and selfish crusade.

I don’t know what more I can really say but hope that you and others like you come to your senses. You’re cause is insulting, immature, and lost.
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  #135  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2009, 5:36 PM
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Originally Posted by TwinTowersForever View Post
How in the name of the lord is Libeskind, some polish guy, qualified to design the most important design in NY and America? We all do remember his first design dont we?
First of all, Daniel Libeskind designed the site plan, not 1 WTC. David Childs is designing 1 WTC and he is from New Jersey.


By the way, the twin towers design you love so much, it was designed by Minoru Yamasaki, and yeah, he was Japanese.
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  #136  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2009, 5:43 PM
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Yes. What was lost was lost. Rebuilding the towers is just desperation, an urge to regain something for appeasement, and if it was rebuilt, you yourself would say that it isn't the same. If you really want the World Trade Center rebuilt, look at what's going on in the site now, not what CAN go on.
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  #137  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2009, 5:44 PM
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Thumbs up

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Originally Posted by CGII View Post

By the way, the twin towers design you love so much, it was designed by Minoru Yamasaki, and yeah, he was Japanese.
And the city itself was founded by immigrants.

"How in the name of the lord are some Dutch settlers qualified to found the most important city in NY and America?"
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  #138  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2009, 6:51 PM
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To the visionaries on both sides of this thread:

I was drawn to this forum by a "Twin Towers" Google alert and, while I don't usually have time to wander through online echo chambers, I had to join this discussion, whether I wanted to or not, because someone is using "TwinTowersAlliance" as a screen name.

Whoever you are, please stop using our name. You mean well, but it is not helpful at all. I guess while I'm at it I would like to thank everyone who has spoken out for the Twin Towers, but remind you that we all want what is best for the site and for our country -- and the surest way to achieve that is to listen to each other.

I generally avoid these forums, but scanning this thread was good because, as the poet Robert Burns said over two hundred years ago: "O wad some Power the giftie gie us. To see oursels as ithers see us." To see ourselves as others see us can be very empowering and, to be fair, there is a great deal of misunderstanding, even among Twin Towers supporters, of what the project is and isn't, so I can understand some of the groundless conclusions I read here.

In any case, this is not the place to address your assumptions one-by-one. It would take the better part of the afternoon and, given human nature, it wouldn't make any difference. So I won't bother. But there will be a "Twin Towers II" event on September 9th that will clarify everything about our project when the video is posted on YouTube on September 12th.

That being said, there are a few things I would like to share. First, that Ken Gardner is an incredibly bright, humorous, and caring individual. Given his background, he would have been more likely to think as you do, but circumstances showed him a different perspective where the people mattered more than the buildings. If you had talked to as many firefighters, survivors, family members, construction workers, foreigners, New Yorkers and Americans from all walks of life as we have and you could find a majority of any of them supporting what is being forced on us at the WTC (through the misappropriation of public funds,) then the TTA would not exist and we and Ken Gardner would be living very different lives.

Of all the comments that jumped out as I scanned your thread, one snarky conclusion epitomized everything that is wrong at Ground Zero. The suggestion that the guy from Brooklyn who was nasty to someone from Ohio speaks for most New Yorkers is bogus -- he speaks only for himself and for people who think like him, but not for most of us. It was America that was attacked and individuals from all over the country were murdered. If someone prefers the official plan, okay, but why do you have to pretend that most people do?

There is a comment on the TTA petition from a guy in Brooklyn who sent it in an email a few Septembers ago: "I would love to be able to look at the skyline once again and see the two towers that once stood there. It would be such a calming vision with the twilight reflected off their sides and their outlines visible from so far away. I always thought they would be there, like parents, friends, and loved ones… I won’t ever look in that direction again if the towers aren’t rebuilt. There’ll be nothing there to see."

You don't have to agree, but please do not put people down who do -- it is not right. What's more, if you had an idea of how much encouragement we have received from people who are at the very top of the construction, engineering, design and real estate industries -- world-class experts who have seen the plans and prefer "Twin Towers II" as a project -- (and I do not mean Donald Trump) you would feel foolish about the assumptions made here. The politics of the situation are intense, but that hasn't kept the most eminent individuals from quietly sharing their advice. So, among other things, your conclusions related to the PATH platform, the IRT and the location of Tower One have all been addressed.

We can assure you that you would be speechless if you know of some of the individuals who would not agree with your "expert" who thinks that what we are calling for is "downright unrealistic in so many ways and on so many levels. It’s simply not feasible or practical, and again the design for this pipe dream is just simply despicable."

In fact, what I find really despicable is the unending rip-off at the World Trade Center. Without the GSA leases you would have nothing. Project cancelled. Silverstein gone. Why? Because no one wants to be part of it except for one Chinese company. But that doesn't tell you anything? And you don’t think the public has a legitimate say? I think it is despicable that anyone would be pleased with the results of a process widely recognized as rigged. They could never have kept the Twins down in an honest and open field. Deny that as much as you like but the record is clear.

If Christopher Ward had done the due diligence we understood he would do after we met with him in his office last September, it would have saved a lot of waste. But our project would still be so much more efficient to build and rewarding to market that it pays for the transition and then some. Meanwhile, he used the public’s deep pockets to put the plan on steroids and you want to pretend it doesn’t deserve an asterisk after its name?

For a great many of us, the Twin Towers were members of the family -- and we are not interested in trading them in for just buildings -- no matter how wonderful -- and you have to admit that even in architectural circles the WTC construction is not much admired.

So what I got from your thread is that for the most part you think that the reason why this completely insolvent plan should pick the public's pocket is because it has been doing that for years and that's reason enough. Luxembourg steel mills are higher on your totem pole than the will of the people. There are people who are married for decades who split when it doesn't make sense to stay together -- but here we haven't even walked down the aisle and you think that the fancy hall and caterer are more important than forcing a bride into a a loveless match -- when her real lover is standing right there. We disagree.

In the old days there was a place in the ceremony where the priest asked if anyone knews of any reason why the bride and groom should not be joined together -- and if so, one was honor bound to speak up. We all have different ideas of duty but I will never understand why people who disagree with us find our dedication worthy of scorn.

As one 9/11 widow commented after an Alicia Colon column two years ago in the “New York Sun: ”My husband died in the 9/11 attacks at the WTC and honestly, I am sick and tired of seeing this continued argument of whether to rebuild or not and if so where... 6 years later… All of us New Yorkers who were present that horrible day were victims even if we did not lose our lives or the life of a loved one. We lost a part of our world… I agree with you Alicia, we need to rebuild those towers....that will be MY memorial.

Last edited by morelight; Aug 20, 2009 at 8:16 PM.
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  #139  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2009, 7:05 PM
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This thread seems to be getting wackier and wackier……
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  #140  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2009, 7:16 PM
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What's more, if you had an idea of how much encouragement we have received from people who are at the very top of the construction, engineering, design and real estate industries -- world-class experts who have seen the plans and prefer "Twin Towers II" as a project -- you would feel foolish about the assumptions made here.
If these guys are so high-profile in the industry, please list some names. Surely it would help your cause if you compile a credible roster of influential backers who could confirm that they indeed support the project. I assume, of course, that they would not be ashamed to come forth to support such an important cause - why would they be? I have followed the design process since its conception and for a while was on the World Trade Center design team, so if these people that you speak of are so high-profile, I'm sure I'd have no problem recognizing their names and status. So, if you will, kindly compile a credible roster of names and their positions/companies that, as you said, will "take our breath away", so we are convinced that your words are true and you are not just bluffing with vague statements like "influential supporters", "credible financial plan", "resolved issues with present construction", etc.
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