VIA Rail

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by headhorse

The Ontario government itself loses $250 million/year by having reduced taxes on aviation fuel

Maybe, I've no idea if that number is made up or not. I'd have no problem with gasoline, diesel and aviation fuel being taxed equally.

But, Air Canada and Westjet should be kneed in the balls, punched in the face and have their monopolies taken away from them. If that was done, plus any fuel tax advantage taken away, it would not surprise me if it balanced out with lower prices.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

What I'd like to see is:

- Train leaving both morning and evening from both Halifax and Dartmouth
- Double tracking in town to eliminate delays
- Track upgrades and additional double track sections outside of town to allow higher speeds and more consistent speeds making the service faster than automobile.

But... it would probably take a good $$billion to achieve that, and that would be much better spent on HFR in the corridor at this point. No because it would "make money" but because it would make sense. I doubt HFR would have a fare recovery ratio of one or greater anyway so money would not be directly made.

Would this really cost $1B? The Ocean route used to have more double track. It would only need to be rebuilt; the ROW would not need to be expanded, and the distances are pretty short. The cost is on the order of $1M per km for adding a single track to an existing railbed. The rural areas could presumably improved incrementally.

A single replacement 102/103 interchange cost $20M and I have not read a single comment saying that cost was unreasonable. The Windsor Street Exchange work is $47M. I think investment along those lines could significantly improve the rail infrastructure (and some WSE-related work is going to be rail improvements). Another project would be to bring either the North End or South End lines into downtown Halifax, or even connect them together. The North End ROW is still there as parking plus Cogswell is getting torn up soon, but nobody seems to be connecting those dots.

The service and infrastructure are so disastrously poor at this point that there is low-hanging fruit all over the place. The problems are not problems of low demand or engineering and construction, they're management problems.

I've posted this before but the history of this rail line in NS makes the story even sadder:
- A railway is started as the Nova Scotia Railway in 1853 and a route is built to Pictou via Truro with NS tax dollars
- After Confederation, NSR is absorbed by the Intercolonial Railway in 1872. HQ moves to Moncton, and the focus is on service in the Maritimes with connections to Quebec and Maine.
- The track is upgraded by 1910 or so; it runs in a dedicated ROW with dozens of bridges and no at-grade crossings. There is a commuter rail route called "The Suburban" along with interprovincial and regional provincial rail routes.
- ICR becomes a part of CN in 1918. HQ moves to Montreal. Freight rates start bouncing up and down dramatically. Many factories close. This becomes a major political issue in the 1920's. Nothing really happens and the 1920's are a lost decade in the Maritimes.
- CN is privatized in 1992
- Some CEO decides to sell off some track to make a quick buck in the 2000's, and some of the double track is reduced to single track
- People talk about how maybe one day we could restore circa 1910 level infrastructure

[J81]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

But weren't they already daily before about 10-15 years ago when service was cut due to poor ridership?

Ill tell you how the government justified its “poor ridership” excuse for cutting VIAs services in the early 90s. This example is from Moncton. Back in the day the regional RDCs were all timed into Moncton to make connections with the Ocean and the Atlantic. Passengers could arrive from all over the maritimes to make it onto the big train to Montréal and points west. All the government had to do was change the times of the regional trains so that people couldnt make the connections anymore. We’re talking 5 or 10 minutes. Service was no longer convenient for the public so ridership dropped and bingo. Reason to cut those services. Same thing happened to the Evangeline ( Yarmouth) and the Cabot ( Cape Breton ) so im sure it also happened right across VIAs system.

[Nouvellecosse]

^^ I've heard of stuff like that happening with transit services although I hadn't heard that it may have been a factor in this case.

Originally Posted by someone123

Would this really cost $1B? The Ocean route used to have more double track. It would only need to be rebuilt; the ROW would not need to be expanded, and the distances are pretty short. The cost is on the order of $1M per km for adding a single track to an existing railbed. The rural areas could presumably improved incrementally.

A single replacement 102/103 interchange cost $20M and I have not read a single comment saying that cost was unreasonable. The Windsor Street Exchange work is $47M. I think investment along those lines could significantly improve the rail infrastructure (and some WSE-related work is going to be rail improvements). Another project would be to bring either the North End or South End lines into downtown Halifax, or even connect them together. The North End ROW is still there as parking plus Cogswell is getting torn up soon, but nobody seems to be connecting those dots.

The service and infrastructure are so disastrously poor at this point that there is low-hanging fruit all over the place. The problems are not problems of low demand or engineering and construction, they're management problems.

I've posted this before but the history of this rail line in NS makes the story even sadder:
- A railway is started as the Nova Scotia Railway in 1853 and a route is built to Pictou via Truro with NS tax dollars
- After Confederation, NSR is absorbed by the Intercolonial Railway in 1872. HQ moves to Moncton, and the focus is on service in the Maritimes with connections to Quebec and Maine.
- The track is upgraded by 1910 or so; it runs in a dedicated ROW with dozens of bridges and no at-grade crossings. There is a commuter rail route called "The Suburban" along with interprovincial and regional provincial rail routes.
- ICR becomes a part of CN in 1918. HQ moves to Montreal. Freight rates start bouncing up and down dramatically. Many factories close. This becomes a major political issue in the 1920's. Nothing really happens and the 1920's are a lost decade in the Maritimes.
- CN is privatized in 1992
- Some CEO decides to sell off some track to make a quick buck in the 2000's, and some of the double track is reduced to single track
- People talk about how maybe one day we could restore circa 1910 level infrastructure

I honestly don't know how much it would cost. Part of the $1 bn was my desire to see trains departing from both Hfx and Dartmouth which would need some sort of platform probably at Alderney but could be anywhere, even around Shannon park. There would also need to be some sort of rudimentary station with baggage handling facilities. We'd also want appropriate rolling stock, perhaps some 3-4 car DMUs for service within the Maritimes, but buying new rolling stock also adds millions to the up front cost.

Overall i would like to see improved rail services in different parts of the country. There's not much point in arguing over which places should get them first as that's a matter for a simple cost/benefit analysis.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I honestly don't know how much it would cost. Part of the $1 bn was my desire to see trains departing from both Hfx and Dartmouth which would need some sort of platform probably at Alderney but could be anywhere, even around Shannon park. There would also need to be some sort of rudimentary station with baggage handling facilities. We'd also want appropriate rolling stock, perhaps some 3-4 car DMUs for service within the Maritimes, but buying new rolling stock also adds millions to the up front cost.

I wonder if Alderney Gate ever was a train stop. It has parts that practically look like a train station right now, and is already a multi-modal transit terminal. I think the rail line going through downtown Dartmouth connects up with the rest of the system at Windsor Junction. In the 1880's it crossed the harbour on a bridge.

Overall i would like to see improved rail services in different parts of the country. There's not much point in arguing over which places should get them first as that's a matter for a simple cost/benefit analysis.

I agree. People are implicitly assuming a model of public finance that doesn't work and can't work when they talk in this way. Many projects are studied and implemented concurrently, and capital funding for major transportation projects tends to come from the federal and provincial governments. Canada is so large that even the labour and materials for these projects could be sourced from effectively different markets. There is no real dilemma over funding rail in Western Canada vs. Central Canada vs. the Maritimes.

[swimmer_spe]

It looks like people are getting what I am saying.

1) A daily train should be the minimum service level.

2) Shorter distances between major cities such as along the Corridor and Edmonton-Calgary should have frequent daily service.

3) we are so behind on most of the country that we are trying to get back to way back when when there even was service.

Oh, and BTW, I am up at 4am when I work days to be at work for 6am. You do what you need to for work.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

It looks like people are getting what I am saying.

1) A daily train should be the minimum service level.

2) Shorter distances between major cities such as along the Corridor and Edmonton-Calgary should have frequent daily service.

3) we are so behind on most of the country that we are trying to get back to way back when when there even was service.

Oh, and BTW, I am up at 4am when I work days to be at work for 6am. You do what you need to for work.

In addition we need the following:

1. The railways need to be forced to restore double track previously ripped out, examples of which are sections between Hamilton an Niagara Falls, London and Sarnia, Truro and Halifax and most glaringly, sections on the mainline between Yellowhead Pass and Edmonton. Regulations should be made forcing the railways to, receive government approval before ripping out double track and at a minimum leave the rail in place for a certain period of time even if it is not being used. Some sections of the Winnipeg to Thunder Bay route should be re-instated if passenger service is ever re-introduced.

2. We need to refurbish sections of track such as between Miramichi and Moncton where speed limits were 70mph previously and CN downgraded them to 30 mph.

3. On the Calgary - Edmonton route 2 - 3 round trips should be implemented immediately to act as a place holder and provide some current idea of ridership until either more upgrades are made including grade separations or a new ROW is built that is totally grade separated. One of main reasons the RDC's were cancelled was delays caused by frequent train/automobile collisions at level crossings.

4. There should be a daily Regina - Saskatoon -Edmonton train and a daily Saskatoon - Regina - Winnipeg train. This would provide 2 trains each way daily between Regina and Saskatoon. Since this is a low volume freight line, Via should purchase the line and allow the freight companies trackage rights with Via being in charge of dispatching. This would future proof the line for passenger use.

5. Passenger trains should use downtown stations where ever possible such as in Saskatoon, Sudbury and Calgary.

6. Cities and towns with transit should be forced to run local transit to train and bus stations and airports as a condition of receiving government funding whether provincial or federal.

7. We should re-establish the Canadian Transport Commission in order that public hearings are required to be held on the cancellation or decline in service parameters in order to avoid the political behind the scenes moves to either cancel or make service so unreliable as to render it useless by governments.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

It looks like people are getting what I am saying.

1) A daily train should be the minimum service level.

2) Shorter distances between major cities such as along the Corridor and Edmonton-Calgary should have frequent daily service.

3) we are so behind on most of the country that we are trying to get back to way back when when there even was service.

Oh, and BTW, I am up at 4am when I work days to be at work for 6am. You do what you need to for work.

1. In addition we need the railways to be forced to restore double track previously ripped out, examples of which are sections between Hamilton an Niagara Falls, London and Sarnia, Truro and Halifax and most glaringly, sections on the mainline between Yellowhead Pass and Edmonton. Regulations should be made forcing the railways to, receive government approval before ripping out double track and at a minimum leave the rail in place for a certain period of time even if it is not being used. Some sections of the Winnipeg to Thunder Bay route should be re-instated if passenger service is ever re-introduced.

2. On the Calgary - Edmonton route 2 - 3 round trips should be implemented immediately to act as a place holder and provide some current idea of ridership until either more upgrades are made including grade separations or a new ROW is built that is totally grade separated. One of main reasons the RDC's were cancelled was delays caused by frequent train/automobile collisions at level crossings.

3. There should be a daily Regina - Saskatoon -Edmonton train and a daily Saskatoon - Regina - Winnipeg train. This would provide 2 trains each way daily between Regina and Saskatoon. Since this is a low volume freight line, Via should purchase the line and allow the freight companies trackage rights with Via being in charge of dispatching.

4. Passenger trains should use downtown stations where ever possible such as in Saskatoon, Sudbury and Calgary.

5. Cities and towns with transit should be forced to run local transit to train and bus stations and airports as a condition of receiving government funding whether provincial or federal.

6. We should re-establish the Canadian Transport Commission in order that public hearings are required to be held on the cancellation or decline in service parameters in order to avoid the political behind the scenes moves to either cancel or make service so unreliable as to render it useless by governments.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

1. In addition we need the railways to be forced to restore double track previously ripped out, examples of which are sections between Hamilton an Niagara Falls, London and Sarnia, Truro and Halifax and most glaringly, sections on the mainline between Yellowhead Pass and Edmonton. Regulations should be made forcing the railways to, receive government approval before ripping out double track and at a minimum leave the rail in place for a certain period of time even if it is not being used. Some sections of the Winnipeg to Thunder Bay route should be re-instated if passenger service is ever re-introduced.

2. On the Calgary - Edmonton route 2 - 3 round trips should be implemented immediately to act as a place holder and provide some current idea of ridership until either more upgrades are made including grade separations or a new ROW is built that is totally grade separated. One of main reasons the RDC's were cancelled was delays caused by frequent train/automobile collisions at level crossings.

3. There should be a daily Regina - Saskatoon -Edmonton train and a daily Saskatoon - Regina - Winnipeg train. This would provide 2 trains each way daily between Regina and Saskatoon. Since this is a low volume freight line, Via should purchase the line and allow the freight companies trackage rights with Via being in charge of dispatching.

4. Passenger trains should use downtown stations where ever possible such as in Saskatoon, Sudbury and Calgary.

5. Cities and towns with transit should be forced to run local transit to train and bus stations and airports as a condition of receiving government funding whether provincial or federal.

6. We should re-establish the Canadian Transport Commission in order that public hearings are required to be held on the cancellation or decline in service parameters in order to avoid the political behind the scenes moves to either cancel or make service so unreliable as to render it useless by governments.

The current stop on the Canadian in Sudbury is in the middle of nowhere. It could easily back in and out, or use the wye to access the downtown station.

[lio45]

Some of you guys' arguments don't hold much water to me... "OMG the country's 4th city has no intercity rail service!" Perfectly normal - the #1 and #2 cities (Toronto/Montreal) are so far away that people fly, and the relatively close provincial capital is connected (AFAIK) by a direct freeway.

In a not too distant future, people will probably be able to do Calgary-Edmonton while sitting in self-driving electric pods going at freeway speeds on Alberta 2. This is better than anything short of a HSR corridor... and I don't think that's ever going to be needed.

One of the trends of our times is that people are needing to travel less and less. You can do things remotely more and more. If you're in Calgary, sure back in the old low-tech days you probably needed to physically go to Edmonton regularly for various reasons, but with technology nowadays, you can probably skip most of those.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by lio45

Some of you guys' arguments don't hold much water to me... "OMG the country's 4th city has no intercity rail service!" Perfectly normal - the #1 and #2 cities (Toronto/Montreal) are so far away that people fly, and the relatively close provincial capital is connected (AFAIK) by a direct freeway.

In a not too distant future, people will probably be able to do Calgary-Edmonton while sitting in self-driving electric pods going at freeway speeds on Alberta 2. This is better than anything short of a HSR corridor... and I don't think that's ever going to be needed.

One of the trends of our times is that people are needing to travel less and less. You can do things remotely more and more. If you're in Calgary, sure back in the old low-tech days you probably needed to physically go to Edmonton regularly for various reasons, but with technology nowadays, you can probably skip most of those.

Driverless cars are at least a decade away from being approved for use as a driverless car.

HSR would be great, connecting all major Canadian cities, but it would be in the Trillions, if not in the next higher number label. So, why not use our current infrastructure better, to serve more people?

[Denscity]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The current stop on the Canadian in Sudbury is in the middle of nowhere. It could easily back in and out, or use the wye to access the downtown station.

Oh man taking the train across the country i was least looking forward crossing through the prairies thinking that would be the most boring part. But no the worst part was going from Winnipeg to Toronto. The same scraped earth tea coloured lakes and pine trees for 20 hours! So when i saw that Sudbury was the next stop i was excited because it was finally civilization. I had barely seen a light bulb the whole time. And mannn was i disappointed when we pulled into Sudbury "station" and all there was was a light bulb at what looked like a bus stop!

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Denscity

Oh man taking the train across the country i was least looking forward crossing through the prairies thinking that would be the most boring part. But no the worst part was going from Winnipeg to Toronto. The same scraped earth tea coloured lakes and pine trees for 20 hours! So when i saw that Sudbury was the next stop i was excited because it was finally civilization. I had barely seen a light bulb the whole time. And mannn was i disappointed when we pulled into Sudbury "station" and all there was was a light bulb at what looked like a bus stop!

At least the Capreol station is served by bus transit....

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The current stop on the Canadian in Sudbury is in the middle of nowhere. It could easily back in and out, or use the wye to access the downtown station.

Or the locomotives could be coupled back to back and run around the train at Sudbury ( CP) and tow the opposite end from Sudbury to Toronto and vice versa but oh no everything is for the convenience of the railway. We can't make anything for the convenience of the passenger. This is just one small reason why no one takes the train outside of the corridor.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

Or the locomotives could be coupled back to back and run around the train at Sudbury ( CP) and tow the opposite end from Sudbury to Toronto and vice versa but oh no everything is for the convenience of the railway. We can't make anything for the convenience of the passenger. This is just one small reason why no one takes the train outside of the corridor.

And this is what needs to be fixed.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

And this is what needs to be fixed.

You are right, but there is at least a simple minimal cost solution so that passengers don't have to embark or disembark in the bush instead of downtown Sudbury. If you make anything bad, late or unreliable enough people stop using it. Unfortunately this has been going on for years. The federal government obviously places no demands upon the service offered by Via. Historically they also want to shed passenger service so they can avoid funding it.

Similar things occur in Saskatoon where freights block the access to the station so the passenger train ( westbound ) has to pass the freight and travel to the next switch and then back up on the same track the freight is on.

I once travelled by train from Lake Louise to Washago ON in the winter. The train was 48 hours late. Due to a derailment on CP we went backwards from Nipigon to Thunder Bay and then forward on the CN tracks back to Nipigon so the train could go on the CN route. You could see the other tracks through the trees. Then we sat all night in Hornepayne not moving an inch (cm).

[J81]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

Or the locomotives could be coupled back to back and run around the train at Sudbury ( CP) and tow the opposite end from Sudbury to Toronto and vice versa but oh no everything is for the convenience of the railway. We can't make anything for the convenience of the passenger. This is just one small reason why no one takes the train outside of the corridor.

Currently the majority of the F40s at Via are restricted to 25mph in reverse. They are slowly being retrofitted to change that. Also the locomotives are placed nose to tail on the long distance trains for other logistical issues that may arise. One being an issue with the lead locomotive that would prevent it from remaining in the lead position could easily be moved back in the locomotive consist while one of the trail locomotives could be placed in the lead without having to find a place to wye or turn a locomotive.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by J81

Currently the majority of the F40s at Via are restricted to 25mph in reverse. They are slowly being retrofitted to change that. Also the locomotives are placed nose to tail on the long distance trains for other logistical issues that may arise. One being an issue with the lead locomotive that would prevent it from remaining in the lead position could easily be moved back in the locomotive consist while one of the trail locomotives could be placed in the lead without having to find a place to wye or turn a locomotive.

Are they restricted to 25mph when they are backing up and and vision is limited or all the time because fo the gearing? Why would passenger locomotives be different than any other diesel-electrics such as all freight, GO
Transit, Exo and WCE locomotives?

[J81]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

Are they restricted to 25mph when they are backing up and and vision is limited or all the time because fo the gearing? Why would passenger locomotives be different than any other diesel-electrics such as all freight, GO
Transit, Exo and WCE locomotives?

Its the type of traction motors they were built with. As theyve needed to be replaced theyve been swapped with newer versions that are not speed restricted in reverse. As for why they were built that way I honestly couldnt tell you.

[ssiguy]

A huge VIA system like some of you are proposing would kill it financially. It would effectly eave the country with a large rail service that serves everyone very poorly and the travelling public would be MUCH worse off.