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  #81  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2020, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Yes, and that has changed recently so that you have outside Quebec fewer people who speak French than those who are of French ancestry, but in Quebec you have more people who speak French than those who are of French ancestry.
Yea there's many immigrants to Quebec from francophone countries who speak French and their native language and not English.

Seems like a positive trend in terms of the health of French in Quebec.
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  #82  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2020, 7:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Luisito View Post
Happy Louis Riel Day!!

Celebrating the life of a true Canadian heroe.
Some may consider Louis Riel to be a true Canadian 'heroe' but I bet the family/descendants of Thomas Scott, the labourer/surveyor for the Canadian Government that was slowly executed by Riel's men during the Red River Rebellion in 1870 may not think the same.

Tommy Douglas, Terry Fox, Sir Frederick Banting and other Canadians that aren't murders but have helped not only Canadian's but people throughout the world would be more the kind of people that I would consider true Canadian heroes.

On an interesting side note to the 'Why Quebec the only mainly French province', After Thomas Scott's cruel murder by Riel, the Canadian government dispatched the Wolseley Expedition to Fort Garry from Ontario to seize the fort and force Riel to flee to USA, he was frustrated by having to remain in exile despite Riel's growing belief that he was a divinely chosen leader and prophet, a belief which would later resurface and influence his actions & his ultimate return to Canada and Riel's sentencing & death in Regina.

Along with a much stronger Anglo military presence following the Red River Rebellion and during the North-West Rebellion shifted the Francophone balance of presence in the Prairie Provinces for ever.
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  #83  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2020, 3:28 AM
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^^^ Yeah, it would have been interesting if Quebec and all the Atlantic provinces were Francophone and Ontario and the rest of Canada westward maintained a Anglophone culture. That would possibly make the representation of both languages more equal. Could that have ever been possible, and if not, why not?
I've always found that what makes the biggest difference is the language of business of the jurisdiction.

Business in French in Canada outside of Quebec is pretty limited. English dominates big time in the rest of Canada including cities and regions with large French speaking populations. In Quebec, business has to be done in French in most cases which means being able to speak and read French is a necessity for the vast majority of the population. In the past there were some areas in Quebec, especially Montreal, where English was the main business language. Putting an end to that was good for the survival of the French language in Quebec.

Last edited by Loco101; Feb 21, 2020 at 3:38 AM.
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  #84  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2020, 3:33 AM
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You could ask that in the US section or the City Discussion thread, but I can tell you now that the closest thing we have is Louisiana.
The closest you have is the very northernmost parts of VT/NH and/or some select pockets in the Fort Lauderdale area (and/or Old Orchard during Quebec's Construction Two-Week Holiday) depending on how you want to look at it. Nowhere in Louisiana (I've been to Lafayette a few times trying to speak French to old Cajuns) comes close.
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  #85  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2020, 3:43 AM
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The closest you have is the very northernmost parts of VT/NH and/or some select pockets in the Fort Lauderdale area (and/or Old Orchard during Quebec's Construction Two-Week Holiday) depending on how you want to look at it. Nowhere in Louisiana (I've been to Lafayette a few times trying to speak French to old Cajuns) comes close.
What about Florida as more and more Quebecois snow-bird there?
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  #86  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2020, 5:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
What about Florida as more and more Quebecois snow-bird there?
He mentioned Fort Lauderdale.

Speaking of French Canadians in the US. Recently I was watching an old 70s documentary about gangs in the South Bronx. They were interviewing these guys talking about how even though they were mostly Puerto Ricans, they didn't discriminate based one race and let people from other ethinicities in. One of them said "like this guy here , hes French Canadian..." and pointed to one of his freinds. I thought that was a pretty curious thing. What the hell was a French Canadian guy doing in the Bronx when it was at its rock bottom worse hanging out with Puerto Ricans??
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  #87  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2020, 9:25 AM
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  #88  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2020, 2:51 PM
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post

Switzerland is close but the regional languages still have pretty solid boundaries and divisions between them. It's common for most Swiss to know three or for languages but I don't think it qualifies as all of them having consistent presence in all areas.
Most of them actually don't have much of a public presence at all in "the otherg guy's" area.
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  #89  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2020, 3:15 PM
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Originally Posted by LakeLocker View Post
My unpopular opinion is largely because Quebecois politicians gave up on the rest of Canada. They went for a partition scenario instead of using their political capital to make French more widely spoken.
.
The decision that was made by the French Canadian elites in the 1967 to pull back and focus on Quebec was in reaction to the rapid decline of French usage in other 9 provinces (often due to policies of the provinces) and the slow erosion of French that was also occurring in Quebec itself.

So it was retrenchment in order to save what could be saved.

Eventually the federal government reacted to the political dynamics and started improving what it could on its side, and also began pressuring the anglo provinces to play nicer with their francophone populations. All of this did improve things in some places (in a handful things greatly improved) but for many francophone communities it was too little too late.
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  #90  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2020, 6:32 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
France is also a (relatively) delightful country compared to the UK, at least climatologically.

If you lived on the Cote d'Azure, I'm sure it would have been quite difficult to coax you to resettle in Chibougamau. If however you were a Brit living in Liverpool, subject to a wet, cold climate without central heating in your house, a relocation to Winnipeg might be a touch less daunting.......
Absolutely nothing to do with climate. Excluding the south of France, there is no appreciable difference in the climates of much of France and the U.K. London and Paris have almost identical climates in terms of mean temperatures and average annual precipitation.

The reason is due to demographic pressures. Eliminate the suggestion that the peak migratory period was from 1600 to 1900. Immigration to the Americas from Europe was in very small numbers until the middle of the 18th century. In 1763 New France had a population of around 70,000. The United Sates did not top one million population until about 1750. The peak migratory period was during the 19th century.

France was very atypical of Europe in that it did not have anywhere near the same population growth as other European countries such as the United Kingdom or Germany so it did not have the same demographic pressures that encourage emigration. In 1801 France (the largest country in Europe if you do not include Russia) had about 29 million people which grew to about 39 million people by 1901, and this with only a very small amount of emigration, and that emigration went primarily to the United States rather than to Canada or the French colonies. In contrast, during the 19th century, the population of Great Britain (not incl. Ireland) grew from about 10 million to over 36 million and that despite massive amounts of emigration to the Americas as well as Australia and New Zealand. Germany's population grew from about 22 million to 57 million also despite heavy emigration, particularly to the United States.

There are several theories about why France had such low birth rates from the late 18th century until the mid 20th century. The dominant ones are that French inheritance laws required a distribution of the estate and the popularity of family planning and contraception in France as early as the 18th century. Remarkable for a predominantly Catholic country. France's demographic decline became a real concern after its quick and unexpected defeat by Germany in 1870 and was not reversed until after WWII.
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  #91  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2020, 6:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Absolutely nothing to do with climate. Excluding the south of France, there is no appreciable difference in the climates of much of France and the U.K. London and Paris have almost identical climates in terms of mean temperatures and average annual precipitation.

The reason is due to demographic pressures. Eliminate the suggestion that the peak migratory period was from 1600 to 1900. Immigration to the Americas from Europe was in very small numbers until the middle of the 18th century. In 1763 New France had a population of around 70,000. The United Sates did not top one million population until about 1750. The peak migratory period was during the 19th century.

France was very atypical of Europe in that it did not have anywhere near the same population growth as other European countries such as the United Kingdom or Germany so it did not have the same demographic pressures that encourage emigration. In 1801 France (the largest country in Europe if you do not include Russia) had about 29 million people which grew to about 39 million people by 1901, and this with only a very small amount of emigration, and that emigration went primarily to the United States rather than to Canada or the French colonies. In contrast, during the 19th century, the population of Great Britain (not incl. Ireland) grew from about 10 million to over 36 million and that despite massive amounts of emigration to the Americas as well as Australia and New Zealand. Germany's population grew from about 22 million to 57 million also despite heavy emigration, particularly to the United States.

There are several theories about why France had such low birth rates from the late 18th century until the mid 20th century. The dominant ones are that French inheritance laws required a distribution of the estate and the popularity of family planning and contraception in France as early as the 18th century. Remarkable for a predominantly Catholic country. France's demographic decline became a real concern after its quick and unexpected defeat by Germany in 1870 and was not reversed until after WWII.
Interesting post, though note that southern France is as big or even bigger than the entirety of England.
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  #92  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2020, 6:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Interesting post, though note that southern France is as big or even bigger than the entirety of England.
Right, but arguably Italy has a more benign climate than France and saw massive amounts of emigration to the Americas (esp. the US, Argentina, Brazil) particularly in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Despite that, its population nearly doubled from 17 to 33 million during the 1800s. Again, the reason why there was very little supplementation of the French-Canadian population from France itself after 1763 is entirely demographic.

The natural and wholly domestic growth of French Canada's population after the Conquest is nothing short of astounding however. From a nucleus of 65-70,000 in 1763, French Canada's population increased 25-fold by 1901, despite massive emigration to the United States and to a much lesser degree other Canadian provinces.
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  #93  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2020, 7:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Right, but arguably Italy has a more benign climate than France and saw massive amounts of emigration to the Americas (esp. the US, Argentina, Brazil) particularly in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Despite that, its population nearly doubled from 17 to 33 million during the 1800s. Again, the reason why there was very little supplementation of the French-Canadian population from France itself after 1763 is entirely demographic.

The natural and wholly domestic growth of French Canada's population after the Conquest is nothing short of astounding however. From a nucleus of 65-70,000 in 1763, French Canada's population increased 25-fold by 1901, despite massive emigration to the United States and to a much lesser degree other Canadian provinces.
Yes there might be in the vicinity of 20 million descendants of those 65-70,000 original French colonists living in Canada and the U.S. today. Fairly evenly distributed between both countries, I'd say. (Though those who still speak French are massively concentrated in Canada, especially Quebec.)
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  #94  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2020, 7:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
The natural and wholly domestic growth of French Canada's population after the Conquest is nothing short of astounding however. From a nucleus of 65-70,000 in 1763, French Canada's population increased 25-fold by 1901, despite massive emigration to the United States and to a much lesser degree other Canadian provinces.


La revanche des berceaux - at least in Quebec and Acadian NB. This was actively encouraged by parish priests.

It would be interesting to see the comparable birthrates between francophones in Canada and their cousins who moved to the USA between the late 1800's and the 1960's
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  #95  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2020, 1:26 AM
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Again, the reason why there was very little supplementation of the French-Canadian population from France itself after 1763 is entirely demographic.
I beg to differ.

There's also the fact that the British authorities forbade French ships to navigate the St. Lawrence for nearly a century after the conquest. Makes it harder for the French to emigrate.

I also wonder about what was left of New-France/Canada, or better yet l'Empire français d'Amérique, in the French collective consciousness of the 19th century.

For instance, when French philosopher Alexis de Tocqueville traveled extensively in the US for almost a year in 1831, he never considered visiting the former French colony nor wondered about its current inhabitants... until, while boarding a ferry in Minnesota, and to his great surprise, he was greeted in French by the owner of the ferry, a métis. In his mind, it was inconceivable that, 70 years after the end of the 7 years war, the french language would had survived in this corner of the world. That a learned man like him thought that at the time is a bit telling of the overall mindset in France back then.

Epilogue: he eventually made a two weeks side trip to Lower Canada, and what he witnessed over there was consterning and disturbing to him. He shared his observations in his famous book De la démocratie en Amerique (1835). Must have made it harder for the French readers of his book to want to emigrate.
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  #96  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2020, 5:15 PM
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^^^ Not suggesting that there was zero French immigration to Canada or the rest of the Americas after 1763, simply that due to a low birth rate and slow population growth, France was only a minor source of immigrants. France's population increased by 34% over the course of the 19th century compared with about 260% for Great Britain and 159% for Germany. In the 50 years following the Conquest only about 1,000 French emigrated to Canada and that had little to nothing to do with the fact that French warships were prohibited in the St. Lawrence.

Even in the late 19th and early 20th centuries emigration from France was not substantial and went primarily to the U.S., Algeria and Argentina.

In the 1880 U.S. Census for example there were nearly 2 million people in the U.S. born in Germany, nearly 1.9 million born in Ireland, over 900,000 in Great Britain and over 700,000 in Canada. The number born in France was 107,000.
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  #97  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2020, 12:30 AM
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Happy Louis Riel Day!!
Out of curiosity, is Riel celebrated as a hero (or at least recognized as "a crucially important historic person") in Quebec, or by Franco-Canadians elsewhere, or other Westerners? Or is he specifically a Manitoba/Métis figure?

From an East Coast perspective, I think most here would recognize him as "an important figure in the early development of Western Canada post-1867, possibly Native?" but would be hard-pressed to provide any details beyond that.

(Which is a shame, as hero or not, his story is undeniably an interesting one)
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  #98  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2020, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Hali87 View Post
Out of curiosity, is Riel celebrated as a hero (or at least recognized as "a crucially important historic person") in Quebec, or by Franco-Canadians elsewhere, or other Westerners? Or is he specifically a Manitoba/Métis figure?

From an East Coast perspective, I think most here would recognize him as "an important figure in the early development of Western Canada post-1867, possibly Native?" but would be hard-pressed to provide any details beyond that.

(Which is a shame, as hero or not, his story is undeniably an interesting one)
Unquestionably a hero to anyone who pays attention to history in Quebec. Every city in Quebec has something named for him. People here would be befuddled by talk of him as a traitor.
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  #99  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2020, 2:28 AM
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Being related to Riel, even distantly, is like a badge of honour where I am from. It's like having a celebrity in the family. I would guess that people in Northwestern Ontario can tell you more about Riel's accomplishments than John A. MacDonalds. And, his rebelling is why half of my city had to be founded to begin with. If there wasn't a Red River Rebellion, there might not have been a Prince Arthur's Landing and Dawson Road until much later.

The education system here spends a little bit more time on Riel and the rebellion, because it was something foundational to the establishment of settlement here.
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  #100  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2020, 2:45 AM
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Interesting. I should clarify that I don't know anyone personally who'd call him a traitor, more that most people here would readily admit that they don't know enough about him to have an opinion either way. I can't think of any streets in NS named after him, but then again I can't think of many streets (or buildings) in NS named for ROC historical figures at all. John A. Macdonald being the only exception I can think of offhand, and even then, there isn't a ton of stuff named after him here (there's John A. MacDonald High School, and that might be it).

Last edited by Hali87; Feb 23, 2020 at 2:55 AM.
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