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  #21  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 7:52 AM
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  #22  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 9:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
Never understood why that was being built. Literally every store you can think of is about 5 blocks away. Even multiples of the same store.
As somebody who actually testified in favor of building it before the Planning Commission, I think I can tell you.

First, consider where it is: Pretty much at the intersection of the Tenderloin, SOMA and Market St which divides the two, both of which have some of San Francisco's lowest income people and many people who don't own cars. "Every store (YOU) can think of" does not supply the necessities of life to low income people living in small apartments in these neighborhoods. First of all, it's a "food desert". At the time what was then called Market Street Place was approved, there was no real low cost super market within walking distance (especially walking carrying bags of groceries) in the area (at the upper end was Bristol Farms on the lower level of SF Centre mall). Now there is, several blocks down Market St., a Trader Joe's and over on Mission a Target that carries some gorceries. Whether those constitute full service low cost places to buy wholesome food, I won't debate here.

Second, at the time it was approved, there wasn't anyplace in the area to buy low cost clothing. The Target that is now at 4th & Mission was supposed to be in this mall, but the approval process took too long and Target found the other location. Also, it was thought some of the outlet stores like Nordstrom Rack could be in this mall but those also got tried of waiting and found other locations. San Francisco's process just imposed such delays that all the stores "you can think of" that now exist elsewhere--but didn't then--found other places to be.
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  #23  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 1:56 PM
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Miami has several. The Omni Mall opened in 1977 and closed in 2000 on the northern edge of Downtown. Typical 1970's design with blank walls, no outward facing stores. Its still there, parts of it are still used. An art/design college takes up some space and there is a little office space. Mostly its just a giant empty hulking box. Its surprising that with Miami's development boom this still exists. There have been plans to level it for highrises but nothing has ever come of it.
https://www.google.com/maps/@25.7903...7i16384!8i8192

The largely abandoned Ultramont Mall right in Downtown Miami:
https://www.google.com/maps/@25.7725...7i16384!8i8192

Sunset Place in South Miami was your typical late 1990s-early 2000s "lifestyle center" urban mall that has been dying a slow death since it first opened. Too close to the giant Dadeland Mall to be much of an area destination and in a not densely populated enough area to survive off local shoppers and too closed off and inward. Plans have been approved to the most inward and insular portion of the mall for a highrise hotel and apartment building. Its right next to UM and a metrorail stop with so much potential.
The sucessful street front part of the mall:
https://www.google.com/maps/@25.7043...7i13312!8i6656
The dying closed off portion:
https://www.google.com/maps/@25.7067...7i16384!8i8192
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  #24  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 4:48 PM
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Wow parts of downtown Miami look like a ghostown. Is that where developers are eyeing next? Is brickell built out?
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  #25  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 4:55 PM
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Originally Posted by JAYNYC View Post
NYC: Brookfield Place
Brookfield Place has high rents and few vacancies, and is probably one of the most desirable retail centers in the U.S. Hermes, Burberry, Gucci, Louis Vuitton, Saks Men, Ferragamo. It's also not really a conventional "mall" but shops scattered within a larger office complex.

It was somewhat less successful 20 years ago, when it was called World Financial Center, but was heavily redeveloped after 9-11.
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  #26  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 5:14 PM
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Originally Posted by pdxtex View Post
Wow parts of downtown Miami look like a ghostown. Is that where developers are eyeing next? Is brickell built out?
It hardly has any urban retail/restaurants. What the hell? It looks way smaller than I thought.
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  #27  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 5:50 PM
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Originally Posted by JAYNYC View Post
L.A.: Westside Pavillion
L.A.: Topanga Plaza
Regarding Topanga Plaza, though I haven't been in that part of town for many years now, I think you're thinking of The Promenade Mall. Last I heard, there were plans to demolish that place. I believe Topanga Plaza is still thriving.

The Westside Pavilion is already dead. It'll be remade into a Google office building, I think. But the attached Landmark Theaters complex is doing fine.

Hehe I'm old enough to remember when the Westside Pavilion was brand new, and the controversy that came with it when it first opened.
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  #28  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 5:52 PM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post


https://www.toronto.com/news-story/7...ment-proposal/


Like so many other malls though it's being redeveloped, of course.
I wouldn't really call this a mall. I'd call this a "strip center" (though maybe I'm not getting the whole picture) and, in the US, strip centers are mostly doing pretty well. The main difference is usually the presence of a grocery store--many people including me are resistant to buying perishable groceries online--and convenient parking with a direct entrance to stores--so you don't have to walk through interior spaces to get to the store you want to go to).

I'm not a developer but I am an investor. I can give you any number of "strip center" stocks that have done very well: KIM, BRX, KRG, SRC and so on. There are also a handfull of mall companies doing pretty well, mainly at the high end: FRT (Federal Realty) and SPG (Simon Property Group) are the standouts. A controversial one that I think may be a great investment ultimately is BPR (Brookfield Property REIT). As Crawford pointed out above, quite a few Brookfield properties are doing fine but mainly Brookfield is one of the most savvy, best capitalized real estate investors in the world. They are usually able to buy properties that are bargains and either turn them around or sell at a nice profit and they have the resources to swoop in where others perhaps couldn't.
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  #29  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 6:09 PM
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Aside from the "never opened" (for reasons I described above) "6x6" (formerly Market St. Place), San Francisco has no great examples of malls that are dying but it does have one classic example of one that's being "reimagined" extensively in order to keep it alive. That would be Stonestown Galleria as shown here:






Images: https://www.google.com/search?rls=en...NvCdg_VBSitUM:

Stonestown is owned by Brookfield. The original anchor tenants were Macy's and Nordstrom, both now closed. Target, however, has expanded and numerous spaces are being converted into dining and entertainment venues--and eventually HOUSING--which is the standard way to resuscitate a mall these days.

Quote:
Stonestown Galleria’s next makeover: housing on its sprawling SF site
Photo of J.K. Dineen
J.K. Dineen Nov. 4, 2019 Updated: Nov. 4, 2019 4 a.m.

The transformation under way at San Francisco’s Stonestown Galleria is obvious these days. Gone are the bookend department store anchors, Macy’s and Nordstrom. A new Whole Foods is under construction, along with a Sports Basement, an expanded Target and an 11-screen Regal movie theater.

But mall owner Brookfield Properties doesn’t intend to rest after the current crop of businesses opens. Instead, Brookfield sees the new wave of retailers and entertainment venues as a prelude to a much bigger and more ambitious metamorphosis that would include a substantial number of new homes . . . .

The possible Stonestown development comes amid increasing complaints that San Francisco’s west side is not producing its fair share of housing. The largest approved development on the west side, the addition of 5,679 apartments at Parkmerced, was approved eight years ago, but has yet to start construction, and there’s no timeline for breaking ground anytime soon. Given the size of the Stonestown site, it would likely be the second biggest housing proposal west of Twin Peaks.

At the meeting in early October, Brookfield executives were absorbing the concerns and hopes of 300 or so residents and others about traffic, parking and affordable housing. Brookfield representatives at the meeting declined to detail the number and location of the units.

But in a dense city with a housing shortage and scant available land, it’s likely that city planners will push Brookfield to create a significant number of units. The mall buildings occupy about 12 acres of the 40-acre site, leaving more than 28 acres of surface parking lots for redevelopment. In comparison, the city is proposing to add 1,100 units at the 17-acre Balboa Reservoir on Ocean Avenue, and a developer is set to start construction next year on 1,670 housing units at the 20-acre Schlage Lock site on the Brisbane border . . . .
https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/...n-14806451.php
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  #30  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 6:52 PM
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Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
Regarding Topanga Plaza, though I haven't been in that part of town for many years now, I think you're thinking of The Promenade Mall. Last I heard, there were plans to demolish that place. I believe Topanga Plaza is still thriving.

The Westside Pavilion is already dead. It'll be remade into a Google office building, I think. But the attached Landmark Theaters complex is doing fine.

Hehe I'm old enough to remember when the Westside Pavilion was brand new, and the controversy that came with it when it first opened.
Yea, Westside Pavilion is getting redeveloped. Westfield Topanga? It's doing awesome. Promenade Mall is going to be redeveloped with several new towers, higrise apts etc.
LA does a great job of redeveloping those older malls. Century City, Santa Monica, Culver City, Macys Plaza downtown, Topanga, Paseo Colorado, etc.
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  #31  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 6:53 PM
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Originally Posted by pdxtex View Post
Wow parts of downtown Miami look like a ghostown. Is that where developers are eyeing next? Is brickell built out?
You mean you dont want to shop in this other dying downtown mall? It looks so inviting
777 international mall:
https://www.google.com/maps/@25.7752...7i16384!8i8192
North of the river has always had the problem of too many homeless. A few residential towers have gone up north of the river but they all line Biscayne Blvd. A couple new towers have started to sprout up a few blocks west. The new Virgin train/residential complex could help spruce up the west side of the old core.
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  #32  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2020, 12:28 PM
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Horton Plaza in San Diego has been a dead mall walking for a while now.

Redevelopment to begin in March to convert it into a tech campus

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/loc...ahead/2245870/

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  #33  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2020, 1:28 PM
Encolpius Encolpius is offline
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^ Wow, that'll be a big change.

I've only visited San Diego a few times, most recently close to a decade ago, but Horton Plaza is for some reason the place that pops to mind when I think of that city.

Here's Oliver Wainwright's obituary of the architect who designed it, Jon Jerde, inventor of the 'themed shopping experience'.
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  #34  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2020, 3:40 PM
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Most of urban malls in North America are still thriving or decay threats most of them? I just came back from a vacation in Germany, and they have lots of urban malls there and all of them seemed very healthy as their retail streets.
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  #35  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2020, 4:21 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneHugo View Post
Horton Plaza in San Diego has been a dead mall walking for a while now.

Redevelopment to begin in March to convert it into a tech campus

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/loc...ahead/2245870/

I *loved* going to Horton Plaza as a kid, and it's just incredible how fast the place has gone downhill over the last 15 years. I can't for the life of me understand why they didn't implement upgrades sooner, given it's super central location. They should've attracted higher end retailers, but instead it became this super low rent mall. Now it's just a ghost-town, it's like a visual bad acid trip of Saved-By-The-Bell nostalgia.

EDIT: Here's an interesting take by SD Reader - "The Fall of Horton Plaza" https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/...horton-plaza/#
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  #36  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2020, 5:58 PM
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Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
Most of urban malls in North America are still thriving or decay threats most of them? I just came back from a vacation in Germany, and they have lots of urban malls there and all of them seemed very healthy as their retail streets.
If forced to generalize, I'd say "most" of them are struggling but the ones doing the best are the ones with the highest end shopping and/or a generous mix of dining and recreational uses. Being in a location with lots of tourists helps too. Tourists like to go shopping in stores--they have less of an option to buy online and if they are in a place (country) where goods seem a relative bargain or where they perceive they can get things less available at home they spend, spend, spend (e.g., European languanges seem more commonly spoken at San Francisco's Apple "flagship" store than English--Americans wanting Apple products, order online or know where to get them at modest discounts).

An example of having almost everything "right" in my town is Westfield San Francisco Centre. It has lots of stores selling expensive goods, it's in the center of town near plenty of hotels full of tourists, it's got a big food court and a multi-screen movie theater and so on. And it has direct underground access to the Muni subway. But even it is converting its uppermost floors to office use (because office space is in short supply in SF, retail space too often sits empty).

Westfield SF Centre

https://www.visitunionsquaresf.com/s...ancisco-centre


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westfi...erior_view.jpg
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  #37  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2020, 6:21 PM
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Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
Regarding Topanga Plaza, though I haven't been in that part of town for many years now, I think you're thinking of The Promenade Mall. Last I heard, there were plans to demolish that place. I believe Topanga Plaza is still thriving.

The Westside Pavilion is already dead. It'll be remade into a Google office building, I think. But the attached Landmark Theaters complex is doing fine.

Hehe I'm old enough to remember when the Westside Pavilion was brand new, and the controversy that came with it when it first opened.
Yeah, I remember that as well. Westside Pavillion used to be pretty awesome, but the era of outdoor-focused lifestyle centers more or less killed it, along with the massive consolidation of department stores. Topanga Plaza, last time I was there, was doing very well. The Promenade used to be the high-end, niche center literally less than a mile from Topanga Plaza, but I presume many of the retailers have relocated to Topanga or just set up shop along Ventura Blvd. or something like that.

Aaron (Glowrock)
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  #38  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2020, 2:23 AM
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Originally Posted by JAYNYC View Post
NYC: Brookfield Place
L.A.: Westside Pavillion
L.A.: Topanga Plaza
Austin: Highland Mall
San Antonio: Rivercenter
San Antonio: Central Park
San Antonio: Rolling Oaks
Houston: Town & Country (was demolished ~2004, later rebuilt as CityCentre)
Topanga is far from dying, I live right up the street from it. Actually Westfield has invested a lot of money in this mall, and pretty much doubled the size several years ago. They even built an outdoor complex (The Village) directly across the street from Topanga Mall. Now The Promanade which is down the street has mostly closed down. It was destined to happen once Topanga expanded and many of the high end stores moved over. This mall is definitely a regional draw like South Coast Plaza down in Orange County, no other mall in the San Fernando Valley like it.

It also has a lot of development happening around it, a lot of old buildings being demolished or updated. There are plans to even add more multi-family housing, more hotels and a stadium for sporting and entertainment events.

As far as The Promanade, it still has a large and active movie theater, and Ruth Chris Steak House is still doing very well. I believe I read that next year is when the mall will be redeveloped. Westfield also own this property it will include office towers, hotels, and condos. They are currently using part of the parking lot for several events throughout the year, one being an outdoor ice skating rink during the holidays.

In fact that whole stretch of Topanga Canyon is already very congested and is going through huge changes. The locals are already complaining it’s too congested now

Last edited by ChrisLA; Jan 21, 2020 at 5:38 AM.
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  #39  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2020, 4:05 AM
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Block 37 in Chicago might qualify. I feel like it's improving, but it definitely isn't sucessfull.
Dying is probably not the right word since it never really was "alive" in that sense. I do go there pretty often though (Magnolia!) and it's busy enough, just a lot of empty space above the first floor. Given the location it might be a good place for some city services if the Thompson Center is sold.
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  #40  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2020, 5:10 AM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneHugo View Post
Horton Plaza in San Diego has been a dead mall walking for a while now.

Redevelopment to begin in March to convert it into a tech campus

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/loc...ahead/2245870/

God, I remember when that mall had an FAO Schwarz on the top floor. It was very vibrant then (2000). I had no idea it totally bit the dust. Is downtown devoid of major shopping now. I guess the movie theatre is gone as well. Thank goodness, the other movie theatre in the Gas Lamp was reopened.

What’s the use of building up downtown so much, if you take away shopping and movies?
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