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  #61  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2019, 2:55 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by SIGSEGV View Post
I'm sure you're well aware, but bigger cities do tend to have good public schools if you can get into them. The top 5 Illinois public schools (according to USNews, not a great source, but a source perhaps used by parents) are all in Chicago, as are 7 of the top 10. It looks like the top 10 in NY are all in NYC. Boston Latin School is the best public school in Massachusetts.
Right, but that's a major caveat. "If you can get into them". Stuyvesant has a 2% acceptance rate, and virtually the entire student body scores in the 98th or 99th percentile on national tests. Bronx Science and Brooklyn Tech are only slightly less competitive.

In contrast, if you move to a good school district, you're set for 13 years, with neighborhood schools, no long commutes, no uncertainty. The best K-12 open admissions public schools are almost always in sprawl.

And, with the suburbs, you can "buy into" school quality. All you need is to buy/rent a home. You can't do that in cities. Stuyvesant only accepts based on the results of a single assessment. Your net worth, extracurriculars, ethnic background, unique attributes, are all irrelevant.
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  #62  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2019, 3:07 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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^ Exactly.

In the burbs you basically just need to live within a district's boundaries and you're in. That's why some suburbs have such desirable housing (reflected in housing prices) regardless of how good or bad the housing stock is.
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  #63  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2019, 3:09 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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I should add, many kids start taking the exam prep course in Kindergarden. The SSHAT is taken in 8th grade, so that means nine years of test prep. It's a major commitment, not one that's right for every family.

But for striving immigrant families, there's essentially no greater success than getting your kids into Stuy, which sends more kids to the Ivies and their equivalents than any school, anywhere.
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  #64  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2019, 3:11 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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I would never put my kids under so much pressure.

We pressure our older son already far more than I feel is warranted, and I feel terrible because he's only 10. When I was 10 I didn't have a care in the world.

I could only imagine how much harder it would be if I was trying to get my grade school aged child into a school that had a 2% acceptance rate. No thanks....
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  #65  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2019, 3:19 PM
galleyfox galleyfox is offline
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Where are new millennials coming from?



I don't agree with you here. Immigrants tend to head for the places with the strongest urban centers. Of all the subgroups living in America, immigrant millennials is the group most biased towards dense urban cities on the coasts.
It's not that there are new millennials.

Young college-educated adults have always lived longer in the urban core than their peers. What's different about millennial s is not that they prefer urban living more or less than previous generations, but that the younger they are, the more diverse and educated and more likely to delay marriage they are - all factors that favor urban living. Generation Z will be even more urban.

Barring exorbitant house prices, many researchers don't expect to see a decline in urban growth for another 2 decades. By which point the city-suburb dynamic could drastically change.



https://www.jchs.harvard.edu/blog/mi...ban-landscape/
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  #66  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2019, 3:26 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
I would never put my kids under so much pressure.
Nor would I. We're eventually paying for private school, probably.

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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
I could only imagine how much harder it would be if I was trying to get my grade school aged child into a school that had a 2% acceptance rate. No thanks....
To be fair, there are about 15 NYC magnet high schools that are extremely high achieving. Only three, Stuy, Bronx Science and Brooklyn Tech, use the SSHAT. So if your kid is reasonably bright, he'll probably have a high school option.

There's also a major demographic difference - Stuy, Bronx Science and Brooklyn Tech are all majority Asian. Actually supermajority Asian. Stuy is like 75% Asian. And many of the whites are immigrants (lots of kids of former Soviet).

The other competitive high schools, like LaGuardia (the "Fame" high school), Beacon, Roosevelt, are very white, and from more affluent, non-immigrant families. These are the kids from Manhattan/Brownstone Brooklyn. The Stuy kids are mostly from Asian enclaves in Brooklyn/Queens.
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  #67  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2019, 3:32 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by galleyfox View Post
It's not that there are new millennials.

Young college-educated adults have always lived longer in the urban core than their peers. What's different about millennial s is not that they prefer urban living more or less than previous generations, but that the younger they are, the more diverse and educated and more likely to delay marriage they are - all factors that favor urban living. Generation Z will be even more urban.

Barring exorbitant house prices, many researchers don't expect to see a decline in urban growth for another 2 decades. By which point the city-suburb dynamic could drastically change.



https://www.jchs.harvard.edu/blog/mi...ban-landscape/
Yes, and my point is that the millennial population is finite. Every millennial that is ever gonna live is already walking the Earth and old enough to drink a beer in America. It is unlikely that cities will see further growth of millennial populations because just about every millennial that wants to live in a big American city is already there. Any new significant growth of millennial populations in big cities would have to come from abroad.
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  #68  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2019, 7:14 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Yes, and my point is that the millennial population is finite. Every millennial that is ever gonna live is already walking the Earth and old enough to drink a beer in America. It is unlikely that cities will see further growth of millennial populations because just about every millennial that wants to live in a big American city is already there. Any new significant growth of millennial populations in big cities would have to come from abroad.
Yes there is a comment error that all teenagers and 20 somethings are "millennials" I think its because the news media has been positively obsessed with this age group for nearly 20 years as either the great progressive saviors of America or the death of everything and harbingers of doom (Neither of which will pan out to be accurate).

Because of this people equate every lame trend or stupid click-bait headline about literally-who-cares college student X being weird as "ugh millennials". Its all very wrong.

THAT being said, you are 100% right now that millennials are getting older cities will only see their numbers shrink by pure mortality (there will be less millennials living tomorrow than there were today) and, most people despite what anyone tells you, will move into single family neighborhoods when they want to have families.

Now you cant rant and rave about how raising a kid in an urban area is fine for X, y or Z but it doesnt matter, the Truth is you simply cant afford the kind of space, sfaftey, schools and amenities in a city for a family as you can in single family and suburban neighborhoods.

Is it technically available in urban areas? Sure if you are extremely wealthy, but for most people it will never work, so even died in the wool progressive interracial gay couples who adopt children....most of those couples will buy homes with yards in "suburban" areas.

Its just the way people are. Its not going to change, and in 20 years the Gen Z kids will follow the same pattern.

Now the pervasive exurban drive to you qualify attitude is way less common now than in say 1997 but it is still there and will always be to some extent. But you will never get your average family to live in urban style apartment living with kids when single family housing is available only a short commute away.
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  #69  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2019, 7:39 PM
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Steely Dan Steely Dan is offline
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Is it technically available in urban areas? Sure if you are extremely wealthy, but for most people it will never work,
not every city is manhattan or san francisco.

we are not extremely rich. we purchased a 2,300 SF 3 bed/3 bath condo in a 3-flat for $420K two years ago in a wonderful, safe, urban neighborhood on the northside of chicago with a good neighborhood school (so good in fact that enrollment is exploding and CPS is currently building a $20M addition).

now, $420K is obviously going to be out of reach for many families, but it's also not in "extremely wealthy" territory either. a dual-income family with two decent middle class salaries can make that work; it's not some unobtainable unicorn that only the top 5% can have.

and for the record, i'm not disagreeing with your premise that many young families do move out to the burbs once they have 2+ kids, i'm merely countering your false narrative that safe, comfortable, urban living for a family of 4 is only available for the "extremely wealthy". middle class families with children can and do live in urban neighborhoods in chicago. some of them are my friends and neighbors.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Oct 1, 2019 at 9:03 PM.
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  #70  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2019, 1:37 AM
craigs craigs is offline
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
so even died in the wool progressive interracial gay couples who adopt children....most of those couples will buy homes with yards in "suburban" areas.
I doubt you have any compelling data proving your claim, but let's see what you've got.
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  #71  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2019, 6:49 AM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
not every city is manhattan or san francisco.

we are not extremely rich. we purchased a 2,300 SF 3 bed/3 bath condo in a 3-flat for $420K two years ago in a wonderful, safe, urban neighborhood on the northside of chicago with a good neighborhood school (so good in fact that enrollment is exploding and CPS is currently building a $20M addition).

now, $420K is obviously going to be out of reach for many families, but it's also not in "extremely wealthy" territory either. a dual-income family with two decent middle class salaries can make that work; it's not some unobtainable unicorn that only the top 5% can have.

and for the record, i'm not disagreeing with your premise that many young families do move out to the burbs once they have 2+ kids, i'm merely countering your false narrative that safe, comfortable, urban living for a family of 4 is only available for the "extremely wealthy". middle class families with children can and do live in urban neighborhoods in chicago. some of them are my friends and neighbors.
The average home price in the usa is 226k as of 2018

You're home is was worth just shy of double the average home price in the USA in 2017 when you bought it. Its very easy to assume that your house is "average" and that your life is " normal" when it is far from.

And by the nature of wealth, the further you go up the income scale the less people their are, thus a 420k home puts you much closer to the top end of homeowners than somebody with a 230k house.

So yes, in reality your "nice but not obscene" home is only actually attainable for something less than 20% (or less) of the population.

You are what most would call wealthy or rich.
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  #72  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2019, 6:50 AM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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I doubt you have any compelling data proving your claim, but let's see what you've got.
Its a joke you nerd. But if you really want to raise a child in an urban center and you are not extremely wealthy you are doing the kids a disservice.
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  #73  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2019, 6:59 AM
craigs craigs is offline
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Its a joke you nerd. But if you really want to raise a child in an urban center and you are not extremely wealthy you are doing the kids a disservice.
Cool story, bro.
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  #74  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2019, 7:34 AM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Cool story, bro.
Prove to me that most progressive gay interracial adoptive couples raise their kids in urban environments???

Lets flip that script
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  #75  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2019, 12:05 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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But if you really want to raise a child in an urban center and you are not extremely wealthy you are doing the kids a disservice.
That's going a bit far. Yes, it's more challenging, but you don't exactly have to be "extremely wealthy", not even in core NYC or SF. I know teachers raising kids in Manhattan.

There are obviously lots of advantages, like access to culture, networking opportunities, vastly better infrastructure, and better schools if you're willing to pay or play the game. And parents generally have more time with kids due to shorter commutes.
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  #76  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2019, 12:13 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
The average home price in the usa is 226k as of 2018

You're home is was worth just shy of double the average home price in the USA in 2017 when you bought it. Its very easy to assume that your house is "average" and that your life is " normal" when it is far from.

And by the nature of wealth, the further you go up the income scale the less people their are, thus a 420k home puts you much closer to the top end of homeowners than somebody with a 230k house.

So yes, in reality your "nice but not obscene" home is only actually attainable for something less than 20% (or less) of the population.

You are what most would call wealthy or rich.
A 400k home obviously isn't indicative of great wealth. Even in a very cheap metro, like Cleveland or Indy, 400k will get you a nice home in a nice suburb, but nothing amazing.

IMO Steely's neighborhood isn't really what we're talking about if we're comparing downtown core living to equivalent suburbs. Downtown Chicago is rather expensive, and a family-sized home will probably run around $1 million.

Yeah, there are "in-between" neighborhoods, not downtown, and not suburban that offer better deals, but usually when people are comparing upscale cores to equivalent suburban living they're comparing, say, Lincoln Park to Hinsdale or Park Slope to Rye. They aren't really comparing Jackson Heights, Bay Ridge and the like (the in-between areas) which, yes, are nice areas and still offer pretty good deals.
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  #77  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2019, 1:12 PM
Jonesy55 Jonesy55 is offline
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I don't think that anybody is saying that is Jeff Bezos rich, just that if half of all US homeowners live in homes worth $225k or less then living in a $420k home makes you quite a bit wealthier than average, at least in terms of housing. And then don't forget that nearly 40% of households in the US rent. You will get some wealthy renters of course, but I bet most are not as wealthy as the average homeowner.
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  #78  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2019, 1:24 PM
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I don't think that anybody is saying that is Jeff Bezos rich, just that if half of all US homeowners live in homes worth $225k or less then living in a $420k home makes you quite a bit wealthier than average, at least in terms of housing. And then don't forget that nearly 40% of households in the US rent. You will get some wealthy renters of course, but I bet most are not as wealthy as the average homeowner.
To add to your point, Chicago is also considerably more cheaper/affordable city than just about every other major city in America.

With the exact same criteria: 3bed/3bath, condo/apartment/townhome/multi family 2,000 square feet minimum, with a maximum price of $430,000 there are ZERO listings for the entire city of Los Angeles.

Somebody with Steely's exact situation, simply would not be able to even find 1 single condo to tour, because there are none on the market for that low of a price.
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  #79  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2019, 1:34 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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With the exact same criteria: 3bed/3bath, condo/apartment/townhome/multi family 2,000 square feet minimum, with a maximum price of $430,000 there are ZERO listings for the entire city of Los Angeles.
But that makes sense. Why would LA have average U.S. prices? Does London have average UK prices? Paris have average French prices? Of course not. The biggest urban centers are almost always much more expensive, because they're much more desirable and have much better job markets.

And the average U.S. home isn't a 3 bed/3 bath, minimum 2,000 ft. Such preferences would put you above the national median even in Bumblefunk, Alabama.
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  #80  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2019, 1:42 PM
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Looking at Northville, MI, a rather nice suburb of Detroit, with excellent schools. Not fancy/trendy. Not the super-wealthy, amenity-filled Birmingham-Bloomfield area, the region's traditional wealth center.

When I do a Zillow search, using your criteria (3 bed/bath, min, 2,000 ft.) I get over 200 listings, and only about a dozen are under 400k. I get far more listings over $1 million than under 400k. Granted, these are asking prices, and homes usually sell for under ask (sometimes well under ask).

Still, even in the suburban Midwest, if you want a family-sized home, with good schools, in what is considered a nice area, there aren't that many options in/under that range. You have to go out to the boonies or sacrifice school quality if you want a family-sized home close to the national median.

https://www.zillow.com/northville-mi...eds/3.0-_baths
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