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  #41  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2019, 4:06 PM
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Originally Posted by SFBruin View Post
So (1) New York, (2) Los Angeles, (3) London, (4) Chicago, (5) Johannesburg?

I'm trying to figure out how you arrive at greater Johannesburg as 5th.
Apparently greater Johannesburg has about 10.5 million people so it's bigger than Chicago.
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  #42  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2019, 5:50 PM
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Wait, what? You've never heard of Boise or Tempe? Forget that nobody ever suggested Boise to become another Manhattan....
No he is saying Sandelton looks like Boise or Tempe, and I agree
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  #43  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2019, 5:54 PM
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Apparently greater Johannesburg has about 10.5 million people so it's bigger than Chicago.
The population alone is not what makes NYC New york City.

New York is the epicenter of the entire north Atlantic international trade zone, and before it was New York it was London, which is still arguably the 2nd most important economic epicenter in the world and they are only 5 hours apart by plane.

I'm sorry but unless Johannesburg becomes the de facto economic hub for the equivalent of North America and W. Europe I dont see how it could ever become "Manhattan"

Maybe in 200 years if Africa fully industrializes and has 2 billion people with a high amount of consumer power, but that is a long way off and quite a bit can happen.
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  #44  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2019, 6:05 PM
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Originally Posted by SFBruin View Post
So (1) New York, (2) Los Angeles, (3) London, (4) Chicago, (5) Johannesburg?

I'm trying to figure out how you arrive at greater Johannesburg as 5th.
How exactly are we defining English speaking? Johannesburg isn't even the largest English speaking country in Africa. It is probably not even in the top 15 if we include all of the countries where English is either an official or de facto language.
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  #45  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2019, 6:59 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
How exactly are we defining English speaking? Johannesburg isn't even the largest English speaking country in Africa. It is probably not even in the top 15 if we include all of the countries where English is either an official or de facto language.

It's a bit hard to define when, for example, here are the countries where English is an official language (but non-majority language, in the case of the light blue):




Versus countries by the actual percentage of the population with knowledge of English:





Personally, I would define an English-speaking place as one where English is the most commonly spoken language. In which case Johannesburg would fit the bill. The other big African cities in "English" countries like Nigeria and Sudan would not though, as they aren't actually predominantly English-speaking, nor are any in South or Southeast Asia.

Under that definition, Johannesburg is indeed the 4th/5th largest Anglo city in the world after New York, Los Angeles, London, and maybe/maybe not Chicago.
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  #46  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2019, 7:59 PM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
It's a bit hard to define when, for example, here are the countries where English is an official language (but non-majority language, in the case of the light blue):




Versus countries by the actual percentage of the population with knowledge of English:





Personally, I would define an English-speaking place as one where English is the most commonly spoken language. In which case Johannesburg would fit the bill. The other big African cities in "English" countries like Nigeria and Sudan would not though, as they aren't actually predominantly English-speaking, nor are any in South or Southeast Asia.

Under that definition, Johannesburg is indeed the 4th/5th largest Anglo city in the world after New York, Los Angeles, London, and maybe/maybe not Chicago.
By your criteria, Nigeria and Pakistan are more English-speaking than South Africa.
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  #47  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2019, 8:08 PM
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No he is saying Sandelton looks like Boise or Tempe, and I agree

It really doesn't look like either, tbh. There are some similarities to Tempe but still far different in feel and urban form. And is probably more important by almost any metric.

OP admitted the thread was a dumb premise, which everyone agreed on. So it's kind of strange some people are getting so uptight about it. Most threads on here are beyond pedantic but still an opportunity for interesting discussion.

Joburg is a city which tends to run under people's radar, but maybe it shouldn't. As was pointed out it is indeed one of the largest English speaking cities in the world*. It's also the economic hub (and arguably cultural) of Sub-Saharan Africa - of which Sandton is the richest node.


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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
By your criteria, Nigeria and Pakistan are more English-speaking than South Africa.

Even if major cities in those countries were included, Johannesburg would still rank in the top 10 largest cities in the English speaking world. However, it's interesting to note that Joburg has always been the epicentre for English speaking South Africa, in stark contrast to heavily Afrikaaner Pretoria just to the North (now arguably part of the metro, but not included in the 10.5mil figure). There's an interesting history here intertwined with the city's role as financial capital, of course.
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  #48  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2019, 8:22 PM
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Originally Posted by niwell View Post
Even if major cities in those countries were included, Johannesburg would still rank in the top 10 largest cities in the English speaking world. However, it's interesting to note that Joburg has always been the epicentre for English speaking South Africa, in stark contrast to heavily Afrikaaner Pretoria just to the North (now arguably part of the metro, but not included in the 10.5mil figure). There's an interesting history here intertwined with the city's role as financial capital, of course.
Perhaps. My list shows it at #6 or #7, depending on whether it is actually bigger than Chicago:

1 - Lagos
2 - New York
3 - Los Angeles
4 - London
5 - Lahore
6 - Chicago
7 - Johannesburg

If we include India, which has English as an official language, it would drop quite a bit.
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  #49  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2019, 8:35 PM
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By your criteria, Nigeria and Pakistan are more English-speaking than South Africa.

That's not relevant though - unlike anywhere in Nigeria or Pakistan, Johannesburg is a predominantly English-speaking city. Sort of like how Montreal is a predominantly French-speaking city even if Canada is not.

Just for fun though, if we were to make a list of all the cities in which English is an official language, it'd go something like this:

1. New Delhi
2. Manila
3. Mumbai
4. New York
5. Lagos
6. Los Angeles
7. Karachi
8. Kolkata
9. London
10. Lahore
11. Johannesburg

(based on estimates of urban area populations from here: https://forum.skyscraperpage.com/sho...=236455&page=3)
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  #50  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2019, 8:38 PM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
That's not relevant though - unlike anywhere in Nigeria or Pakistan, Johannesburg is a predominantly English-speaking city.

Sort of like how Montreal is a predominantly French-speaking city even if Canada is not.
How is Lagos not predominantly English-speaking?
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  #51  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2019, 8:46 PM
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How is Lagos not predominantly English-speaking?

I believe Yoruba would be the most commonly used language in Lagos.
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  #52  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2019, 9:10 PM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
I believe Yoruba would be the most commonly used language in Lagos.
The language of business in Nigeria is English. I imagine it is just as widely spoken in Lagos as it is in Johannesburg.
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  #53  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2019, 9:21 PM
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The language of business in Nigeria is English. I imagine it is just as widely spoken in Lagos as it is in Johannesburg.
I can say with some confidence that it’s not, and certainly not to the same level of proficiency. I imagine it would be difficult to find any real statistics on this but I’m going off my time living in joburg where I knew a number of Nigerian expats and people who have worked in Nigeria.
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  #54  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2019, 9:40 PM
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Originally Posted by niwell View Post
I can say with some confidence that it’s not, and certainly not to the same level of proficiency. I imagine it would be difficult to find any real statistics on this but I’m going off my time living in joburg where I knew a number of Nigerian expats and people who have worked in Nigeria.
I think we can safely consider a place that prints its road signs in English as English-speaking: https://goo.gl/maps/kxT67wDJHZ2Bj2Qt5
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  #55  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2019, 11:14 PM
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Everbody in Johannesburg speaks English. It’s the lingua franca there. Amongst the Whites, English speakers outnumber Afrikaners at 3:1 ratio (in SA as a whole is 2:3). Unlike the rest of SA, all the nine Bantu languages are represented there, so the Black majority much use English in order to communicate to each other.
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  #56  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2019, 1:21 AM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
That's not relevant though - unlike anywhere in Nigeria or Pakistan, Johannesburg is a predominantly English-speaking city. Sort of like how Montreal is a predominantly French-speaking city even if Canada is not.

Just for fun though, if we were to make a list of all the cities in which English is an official language, it'd go something like this:

1. New Delhi
2. Manila
3. Mumbai
4. New York
5. Lagos
6. Los Angeles
7. Karachi
8. Kolkata
9. London
10. Lahore
11. Johannesburg

(based on estimates of urban area populations from here: https://forum.skyscraperpage.com/sho...=236455&page=3)
Would Hong Kong make that list? English is one of two official languages, and while it is not the most commonly spoken language in the city (Cantonese), according to Wikipedia a majority of 53.2% can and do speak English.
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  #57  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2019, 6:16 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I think we can safely consider a place that prints its road signs in English as English-speaking: https://goo.gl/maps/kxT67wDJHZ2Bj2Qt5

Look, English road signs - Bhutan is an English country too!


https://slainthejabberwock.wordpress...ing-in-bhutan/



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Originally Posted by craigs View Post
Would Hong Kong make that list? English is one of two official languages, and while it is not the most commonly spoken language in the city (Cantonese), according to Wikipedia a majority of 53.2% can and do speak English.

Hong Kong would count, but at about 7.5 million it's smaller than any of those cities.
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  #58  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2019, 7:06 PM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
Look, English road signs - Bhutan is an English country too!
I don't understand the reluctance for considering Nigeria an English speaking country. English is the only official language, English is widely spoken, and Nigeria is a former British colony. What's missing to make it more legitimate?
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  #59  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2019, 8:32 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I don't understand the reluctance for considering Nigeria an English speaking country. English is the only official language, English is widely spoken, and Nigeria is a former British colony. What's missing to make it more legitimate?

The fact that it's not the mother tongue of the local population (vs South Africa which at least has a native-born Anglo minority), that there are much more commonly spoken languages, and that only about half of the Nigerian population is even able to speak English. It's the language of business & government but not necessarily of the people.

I agree that these things are not so clear cut though and that the presence of English manifests itself in different ways - and in the case of multi-lingual Nigeria it seems to exist in particularly unique space. That said, from my knowledge, Johannesburg is still English-speaking to an extent that Lagos is not.
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  #60  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2019, 8:45 PM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
The fact that it's not the mother tongue of the local population (vs South Africa which at least has a native-born Anglo minority), that there are much more commonly spoken languages, and that only about half of the Nigerian population is even able to speak English. It's the language of business & government but not necessarily of the people.

I agree that these things are not so clear cut though and that the presence of English manifests itself in different ways - and in the case of multi-lingual Nigeria it seems to exist in particularly unique space. That said, from my knowledge, Johannesburg is still English-speaking to an extent that Lagos is not.
This seems a bit cherry-picked. Nigeria has a higher percentage of English speakers than South Africa. I see no reason why we would assume that most people living in Johannesburg speak English and not the same of Lagos. It is far more likely that most people in Lagos speak English, and people who don't speak English live in rural villages.
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