HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Europe

About The Ads  This week the ad company used in the forum will be monitoring activity and doing some tests to identify any problems which users may be experiencing. If at any time this week you get pop-ups, redirects, etc. as a result of ads please let us know by sending an email to forum@skyscraperpage.com or post in the ads complaint thread. Thank you for your participation.


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #1  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2007, 3:38 PM
Citrus-Fruit Citrus-Fruit is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 744
Birmingham and Rotterdam

These two cities have quite a similar situation with quite similar height ranging skylines. Along with Frankfurt are these two cities going to become major world cities within the next 15 years.



Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2007, 4:29 PM
Grumpy's Avatar
Grumpy Grumpy is offline
Honored Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-Fruit View Post
These two cities have quite a similar situation with quite similar height ranging skylines.
This is certainly true

Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-Fruit View Post
Along with Frankfurt are these two cities going to become major world cities within the next 15 years.
They wont.
Look what London & La Défense have to offer in the future , these 2 (B'ham & R'dam) even with Frankfurt are way to small to compete with the big 3 in Europe (3rd is Moscow).
But it must be said they are both doing good to become top European cities
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2007, 6:22 PM
Citrus-Fruit Citrus-Fruit is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 744
Of course. But outside the capitals of the major countries these two have an incredible chance to become world cities like Frankfurt is for Germany, Milan is for Italy etc

Amsterdam and London have dominated there respective countries for along time but both seem to be coming out of the duldrums now and trying to muscle in on what the others have had for a long time. They will never overtake the likes of London, Moscow, Paris etc that can be said without an ounce of negativity towards the two, its just plainly obvious, but can they become 2nd tier (beta) world cities like Frankfurt within the next 15 years. Currently they lie within the top 50-100 most important cities can they make the improvement by 2020-2025 into the top 30 which is the aim of both cities councils.

My money if one was to do it would be on Rotterdam but I think this is one of the best comparisons there is in Europe.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2007, 6:41 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 19,110
I always thought Rotterdam was a little more prosperous and international. It's skyline sure looks better, though I don't think towers say much about a city.

Is Frankfurt really a "major world city"? It's certainly international, but more in the style of Zurich than London or Paris.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2007, 9:42 PM
Citrus-Fruit Citrus-Fruit is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 744
Yeh it skyline at the moment is alot better then Birminghams, but in return, Birminghams new towers are an awful lot more asthetic then its compatriot. Its hard to say which city is more international as Birmingham apart from Las Vegas is the only city with 2 arenas in the worlds top 75. Its hosts the worlds largest motorsport, clothes, dog shows etc its hosted the G8 Summit, Eurovision song contest, Is the new home of the conservative political party, national lottery, Europes leading sporting city, accepts responsibilty for over 30% of all UK patents. 9% of the total worlds. Even oxygen was first discovered in the city

The only thing it lacks is a buisness center to attract major firms but this is all changing now with a pre-sale of its new 14 storey colmore plaza to KPG at £150m. It has 1 scheme in pre-planning which is going to accomodate over 2,000,000sqft of office space, its quite a possibility a top of the range high-rise (250m) skyscraper could be involved.

Frankfurt is the 2nd biggest financial market in Europe, a major world player. ammenity wise, maybe not but its ranked along side Toronto, which I personaly rate as a World city.

I guess its how you judge the credentials of a major metropolis.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2007, 9:49 PM
Citrus-Fruit Citrus-Fruit is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 744
This is one office, residential, hotel development that is currently under construction. It is the first of 3, 5* hotels planned for the city after a surge in demand. (smaller tower)

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2007, 10:07 PM
Jonas's Avatar
Jonas Jonas is offline
fried white rice
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Greater London, UK
Posts: 1,308
That's very strange. I always thought Frankfurt was an Alpha-range global city (along with London, NYC, Paris, HK, Tokyo and the likes) due to it's global importance in banking and finance sectors (whereas Moscow seems to be a beta world city as according to the link provided) which makes you thoughts a little confusing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_...orld_cities.29
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2007, 10:53 PM
Citrus-Fruit Citrus-Fruit is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 744
Me or Crawford? ^^

I see what you mean but arguably politically, domestically and internationally Moscow is a more reknowned city. Financially it compares poorly to Frankfurt but both are world cities and as I pointed out before, Frankfurt is a top ranked city which has become a benchmark for the councils of Brum and Dam to aspire to.

However, we seem to be missing the point. Frankfurt is not the capital of Germany but has found its way as one of the leading cities in Europe and the world in terms of highrise accomodation and high quality office developments.

As you can see by the link Jonas has given us, Rotterdam and Birmingham have only notched 2 points a piece. In my experience both are a above Dublin which has 3 points but you could argue thats due to its status as the capital of one of the richest countries in Europe.

Both councils aim to become a top 30 city. This means both have to become as influential, diverse and domestically reliable as the likes of Amsterdam, Prague, Washington, Dusseldorf and Melbourne. Is a 20 year time frame just to short for these cities to progress this much?

The French call Birmingham the Shanghai of Europe. Its has £13 billion worth of redevelopment within its city core, its just announced Europes largest city masterplan in the post war era expanding it by ten fold with the possibilty of grand lakes and even a 90m pyramid. Its all well and good having aspirations and beg my pardon as im not all to familair with the exact development of Rotterdam but are these aims un-realistic?

To me, to get into the top 10 cities in Europe, which I see as, London, Paris, Frankfurt, Moscow, Rome, Barcelona, Berlin, Istanbul, Warsaw and Madrid both cities are going to have to push extremely hard and develop like crazy over the next decade, even if it means building speculatively to attract major tnc's.

P.S Whats Rotterdam's largest known project?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2007, 11:51 PM
Jonas's Avatar
Jonas Jonas is offline
fried white rice
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Greater London, UK
Posts: 1,308
^^^
I see your point
I was just a little confused when you described Frankfurt as a "beta world city" whereas it is an alpha world city (unless you know some other rankings besides those I provided). Anyway, good luck to Birmingham.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #10  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2007, 8:57 AM
one very bored guy's Avatar
one very bored guy one very bored guy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Woope doo Frankfurt
Posts: 1,810
I agree tha both Birmingham and Rotterdam will increase their level of importance in Europe, and both are exciting cities for new developments. However, I cannot see any other relationship between them. One is an inland city, the other a port city. That major geographical difference seems important to me. Rotterdam also seems to have a longer history of highrises, being one of the pioneers in Europe.

Both are facinating cities though, and I will keep track of their impressive new developments.

As for Frankfurt. It certainly is an Alpha city on the world business stage. But it lacks much what other Alpha cities around the world have. I would still say Berlin and Hamburg in Germany feel larger and more important, although of cause on the international business front, Frankfurt holds it's own.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2007, 11:26 AM
Citrus-Fruit Citrus-Fruit is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 744
Arr yes agree one very bored guy, but Birmingham constructed the largest inland canal network to accomodate its position as the workplace of the world. At its peak in the late 19th early 20th century Birmingham grew from 74,000 to 630,000 inhabitants and the canal system was the reason for it. It was a leading industrial city and transported coal, iron, guns, swords even buttons etc. The reason it was called "the city of a thousand trades" and all because of the canal system. So you could argue in a way that both cities have prospered from using water to thier advantage and becoming the main ports in thier respected countries for useable goods.

On them being pioneers of highrise in Europe. Im not too sure thats the case. Birmingham built a 100m clock tower completed in 1900 for its university. Rotterdam's tallest at this point was a mere 42m.



It certainly was however a pinoneer of highrise residential living. 60+ meter GEB was built in the early 30's. Both cities broke the 100m office barrier in 1969/70. Quite similar time frames.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2007, 6:54 PM
Miu Miu is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 441
Also, Germany has always been a federation/confederation and is traditionally a decentralized country, unlike England, which has been dominated by London for centuries.
Other English cities are improving business-wise, but most are still doing quite poorly compared to other western european cities.
I can see Birmingham becoming more important, but it won't reach the level of Frankfurt or Milan as a business hub. London is just too dominant within the UK.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2007, 8:52 PM
Citrus-Fruit Citrus-Fruit is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 744
Agreed. London is far to dominant but in a sense, its complete control has now got companies looking elsewhere for thier HQ's due to the continued price hikes being seen in the capital. Birminghams PSQFT price has dropped dramtically over the last few years from the 9th most expensive in the world to just inside the top 50. This has in turn attracted new companies relocating from the capital and with its huge catchment area begun to turn it into a major european buisness city.

Why spend £200m more on a bulding when you can get the same grade A space 110 miles away. The north of England is seeing some major growth with Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds and Liverpool all fighting for major companies relocating from London.

The BBC have just announced its move away from London to Manchester. It seems quite alot are taking heed of the overpriced floor space within dominating capital cities. Which can only be a good thing for the likes of Birmingham and Rotterdam.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2007, 6:48 AM
one very bored guy's Avatar
one very bored guy one very bored guy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Woope doo Frankfurt
Posts: 1,810
@Citrus-Fruit, yes I know about the canals in Birmingham. I look forward to having a chance to photograph them one day. But they don't dominate the city in the same way the harbour and port dominates Rotterdam. Canals are like small rivers, and unless it's a completely canal centric city like Venice and to a lesser degree, Amsterdam, they are usually in the background.

Have a look at a group of photos from Rotterdam, Birmingham, Venice and Amsterdam. Most of Rotterdam show the port and harbour somewhere. Most from Venice or Amsterdam show the canals somewhere in a shot. But you really have to look hard to find photos of Birminghams canals.

Just a thought. I love the idea of the canals in Birmingham though, and have to see and enjoy them for myself someday in the future.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2007, 12:17 PM
Citrus-Fruit Citrus-Fruit is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 744
Yeh I completely understand that. I thought you were talking in relation to thier importance of the growth of the cities etc.

Waterfront settings are immensly more valuable then inland no doubt about it. Thats where within the UK, Cardiff and especially Liverpool have such a clear advantage over some of the other major cities in developing a world reknowned skyline

Some good news to come out of the city today though is that 35m 100ft+ has been added on to the taller tower at Masshouse a 1msqft scheme in the eastside. The tower will stand just over 100m which is a fantastic imporvement and all down to a 14 storey catalyst within the area which was talked about earlier thats added considerable land value to the area . This could really become one of Europes major CBD's with some gigantic office towers springing up. Over 4 100m+ towers are planned within touching distance now. Its getting exciting.

British Land have also brought the 80m Natwest Tower within the city center and the aim is to double it floor space with another 100m+ tower filtering through into the rumour mills.

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #16  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2007, 7:01 PM
RazzC RazzC is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Gouda
Posts: 4
Quote:

On them being pioneers of highrise in Europe. Im not too sure thats the case. Birmingham built a 100m clock tower completed in 1900 for its university. Rotterdam's tallest at this point was a mere 42m.
Well, the 'mere 42 m.' was enough to be the tallest office building on continental Europe at the time, so it's not really a dwarf we're talking about
By the way, the tallest building at the time was still the 62 m. tall tower of the 16th-century Laurenschurch, the only remnant from medieval Rotterdam.

Furthermore, about Rotterdam becoming a world class business city, I don't think that'll be the case, the city being in a small country. There's just not enough demand for office space. That's also the reason why the city has such problems building above 150 m. (finally, there's a 165 m. tall office tower under construction now, which will beat the 151 m. tall Delftse Poort after reigning the skies for 15+ years) The ambition is clearly there, that's not the culprit.

Birmingham, that's another story. It might actually become a second tier world city if it does well to pick up companies who are tired of London.
I don't really see much similarities between Rotterdam and Birmingham by the way, beside the skylines.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2007, 7:15 PM
Minato Ku's Avatar
Minato Ku Minato Ku is offline
Tokyo and Paris fan
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Paris, Montrouge
Posts: 3,849
Don't forget Lyon in the cities like Birmingham.
Lyon is already 24th in the best european business cities rank.
Actually it has only one skyscraper and high rises over 100m in construction but the mayor annonced other towers.
It is higly ranked in best european cities for office space (5th or 7th) and has huge redevellopement project.

Last edited by Minato Ku; Apr 21, 2007 at 8:00 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #18  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2007, 7:33 PM
holladay's Avatar
holladay holladay is offline
Bombshell Vintage
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,249
I don't have the patience to read through this whole post so I know I'm exaggerating some of the arguments presented here but I find it foolish that presence of towers is now considered evidence of "world class city" status. More likely, towers just mean greater business presence, corporate headquarters, that sort of thing. And maybe increased role in international commerce. That's it... They don't create great cities. Rotterdam, Frankfurt and Birmingham all accord to this logic.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2007, 9:12 AM
RazzC RazzC is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Gouda
Posts: 4
^I agree, but that's not what this thread is about at all.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #20  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2007, 12:23 PM
one very bored guy's Avatar
one very bored guy one very bored guy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Woope doo Frankfurt
Posts: 1,810
Quote:
Originally Posted by RazzC View Post
Furthermore, about Rotterdam becoming a world class business city, I don't think that'll be the case, the city being in a small country. There's just not enough demand for office space. That's also the reason why the city has such problems building above 150 m. (finally, there's a 165 m. tall office tower under construction now, which will beat the 151 m. tall Delftse Poort after reigning the skies for 15+ years) The ambition is clearly there, that's not the culprit.
That is really not an issue, as there are smaller countries in the world that have cities with towers over 150meters. Auckland in New Zealand is one example. The issue is that this city is in Europe and Europe is simply infamous for it’s lack of high rises.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Europe
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 2:17 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.