Winnipeg | Portage and Main

[Jets4Life]

I wish the software for this forum could embed tweets, but this will ahve to do. I all urge everyone to watch this short video:

https://twitter.com/brent_bellamy/st...70070590877698

[robertocarlos]

The marketing thing is a bit icky.

What about making it a giant round-about? It would be so congested that you could just walk across in between the traffic. Should I start a GoFundMe?

[countrymouse]

Link to article from CBC, including estimated affects on traffic and pedestrian crossing times from the Dillon study
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manito...data-1.4786207

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

I wish the software for this forum could embed tweets, but this will ahve to do. I all urge everyone to watch this short video:

https://twitter.com/brent_bellamy/st...70070590877698

Reading some of the responses was so painful. Not only do these people vote, they may breed.......

[pspeid]

The Portage & Main "debate" reminds me so much of all the other development debates we have had in the past. Anyone remember the controversy over digging out the boat basin at The Forks? It was going to bring unprecedented levels of pollution from boats leaking their oil and gasoline (it didn't) and disturb ancient burial grounds (there weren't any-people don't bury their dead where they live). How about the Eaton's building/area debate? The new area was supposed to unleashed crowds of testosterone-crazed mobs on the streets that would attack any women they saw (the crowds just painted their faces white and many of the crowd were women). It goes on and on.

In support of opening Portage & Main I like to ask people on the "no" side what their work place is like or, if they have kids in school, what their kid's school is like. Does your workplace have an attractive lobby and plaza (like most new buildings) or is is beige and functional? Do you kids go to a school with attractive grounds, or do they sit in a "box" with as many desks squeezed in side-by side as possible? As important as functionality, efficiency and safety is, aesthetics is just as important. Portage & Main is, historically, the "front lobby" for Winnipeg's financial and business sector. Our "lobby" needs to suggest confidence and dynamism to anyone who passes through it.

[Wpg_Guy]

Originally Posted by pspeid

The Portage & Main "debate" reminds me so much of all the other development debates we have had in the past. Anyone remember the controversy over digging out the boat basin at The Forks? It was going to bring unprecedented levels of pollution from boats leaking their oil and gasoline (it didn't) and disturb ancient burial grounds (there weren't any-people don't bury their dead where they live). How about the Eaton's building/area debate? The new area was supposed to unleashed crowds of testosterone-crazed mobs on the streets that would attack any women they saw (the crowds just painted their faces white and many of the crowd were women). It goes on and on.

In support of opening Portage & Main I like to ask people on the "no" side what their work place is like or, if they have kids in school, what their kid's school is like. Does your workplace have an attractive lobby and plaza (like most new buildings) or is is beige and functional? Do you kids go to a school with attractive grounds, or do they sit in a "box" with as many desks squeezed in side-by side as possible? As important as functionality, efficiency and safety is, aesthetics is just as important. Portage & Main is, historically, the "front lobby" for Winnipeg's financial and business sector. Our "lobby" needs to suggest confidence and dynamism to anyone who passes through it.

It reminds me of the Esplanade Riel, the Winnipeg Sun dubbing it 'the dink bridge' and Steve Harper during his campaign standing at the foot of the bridge criticising it as a waste of tax payers dollars. Years later he escorted the Queen of England across the bridge to the Canadian Museum for Human Rights. I don't think anyone would object to the 25M it cost to build that bridge today, it's become the symbol and post card image of the city, drawing thousands of tourists a year.

[The Jabroni]

Originally Posted by pspeid

The Portage & Main "debate" reminds me so much of all the other development debates we have had in the past. Anyone remember the controversy over digging out the boat basin at The Forks? It was going to bring unprecedented levels of pollution from boats leaking their oil and gasoline (it didn't) and disturb ancient burial grounds (there weren't any-people don't bury their dead where they live). How about the Eaton's building/area debate? The new area was supposed to unleashed crowds of testosterone-crazed mobs on the streets that would attack any women they saw (the crowds just painted their faces white and many of the crowd were women). It goes on and on.

In support of opening Portage & Main I like to ask people on the "no" side what their work place is like or, if they have kids in school, what their kid's school is like. Does your workplace have an attractive lobby and plaza (like most new buildings) or is is beige and functional? Do you kids go to a school with attractive grounds, or do they sit in a "box" with as many desks squeezed in side-by side as possible? As important as functionality, efficiency and safety is, aesthetics is just as important. Portage & Main is, historically, the "front lobby" for Winnipeg's financial and business sector. Our "lobby" needs to suggest confidence and dynamism to anyone who passes through it.

Winnipeggers will be stubborn on just about anything, including aesthetics, or lack there-of. The mentality of “good enough” design of function with little to no form for cheap is what’s holding Winnipeg back. You want a nice city to live in? Well you can.

There’s no need to short change ourselves. We can have our cake and eat it too. We’ve seen it in the past, and overcame those things. We can overcome the obstructionists too.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by The Jabroni

Winnipeggers will be stubborn on just about anything, including aesthetics, or lack there-of. The mentality of “good enough” design of function with little to no form for cheap is what’s holding Winnipeg back. You want a nice city to live in? Well you can.

There’s no need to short change ourselves. We can have our cake and eat it too. We’ve seen it in the past, and overcame those things. We can overcome the obstructionists too.

Exactly! We have to remember that, once the money is spent on projects like these and people see how great their city can be, the "outrage" quickly fades away, and few will admit to having opposed the development in the first place. I hope our leaders have a sense of history and remember that when the time comes to make the decision on this project.

[Geebrr]

Hopefully Bowman gets re-elected and just ignores any "no" victory.

People in this city need things forced upon them to make any progress.

[Geebrr]

Jeff Browaty championing "status quo" says everything that needs to be said.

He is just trying to keep his job.

[The Jabroni]

Originally Posted by Geebrr

Jeff Browaty championing "status quo" says everything that needs to be said.

He is just trying to keep his job.

Which is exactly why he needs to go.

If anyone in North Kildonan has a backbone, then it would be in their best interests to oust this guy while they still can, come election time.

[Ando]

Sadly, most of that would never have happened with a referendum. There’s a real danger the No side will win. Terrible way to govern.

[The Jabroni]

Originally Posted by Ando

Sadly, most of that would never have happened with a referendum. There’s a real danger the No side will win. Terrible way to govern.

Yep.

I fear that this will happen. The only way that this won't happen is if the Mayor decides to not put it on the ballot at all and drop the issue altogether, and if he does win re-election, say "Oh, by the way, Portage and Main will be reopened." It will be political suicide at that point, and he'll end up being the most hated man in Winnipeg.

If there's anything that needs a jolt in this city, it's more controversy, because Winnipeg loves controversy, am I right?

[buzzg]

In terms of the form vs. function conversation above, I completely agree, but even more than aesthetics being important in a lot of the mentioned projects – mental health is a big factor. If we designed everything to a bare minimum with no "niceties" or high-quality design, it's proven to negatively affect people's health.

To me, this argument starts and ends at mental health – people who have mobility issues are being kicked to the curb by the "no" argument. People with mental health issues or intellectual disabilities are also negatively affected by the concourse-only design as well.

True North Square is being cited as the first development of its kind in North America to be designed and developed with mental health in mind. They worked with accessibility and mental health experts from the beginning, for everything from physical design to IT infrastructure. Everything from the universally accessible design, to the way public and (semi-)private spaces like hallways and lobbies are designed, the app-based system that controls everything both commercial and residential tenants could need. For example, the residences don't need keys to enter the building or their units – taking the stress out of fumbling your keys, losing them, getting locked out, etc. That's also one of the reasons they built in the grocery/package delivery room – so people don't have to stress about packages getting stolen or missing a delivery.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by buzzg

In terms of the form vs. function conversation above, I completely agree, but even more than aesthetics being important in a lot of the mentioned projects – mental health is a big factor. If we designed everything to a bare minimum with no "niceties" or high-quality design, it's proven to negatively affect people's health.

To me, this argument starts and ends at mental health – people who have mobility issues are being kicked to the curb by the "no" argument. People with mental health issues or intellectual disabilities are also negatively affected by the concourse-only design as well.

True North Square is being cited as the first development of its kind in North America to be designed and developed with mental health in mind. They worked with accessibility and mental health experts from the beginning, for everything from physical design to IT infrastructure. Everything from the universally accessible design, to the way public and (semi-)private spaces like hallways and lobbies are designed, the app-based system that controls everything both commercial and residential tenants could need. For example, the residences don't need keys to enter the building or their units – taking the stress out of fumbling your keys, losing them, getting locked out, etc. That's also one of the reasons they built in the grocery/package delivery room – so people don't have to stress about packages getting stolen or missing a delivery.

I didn't know this...very cool!

Even if the referendum is close, even a "no" vote doesn't kill the project as it isn't binding. There are several ways Bowman (and forward-thinking allies) can still open up the intersection, and this is one consideration that hasn't been discussed: bringing Portage & Main up to modern standards with regards to menial health considerations.

[windypeg]

Originally Posted by pspeid

I didn't know this...very cool!

Even if the referendum is close, even a "no" vote doesn't kill the project as it isn't binding. There are several ways Bowman (and forward-thinking allies) can still open up the intersection, and this is one consideration that hasn't been discussed: bringing Portage & Main up to modern standards with regards to menial health considerations.

My hope is that we will get at least enough "yes" votes that people who claim "NO ONE wants it open" will have to concede that there are in fact many people in the city who want it, even if not a majority. Then maybe a few years down the road as downtown continues to evolve public attitudes may change enough to reopen the discussion.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by windypeg

My hope is that we will get at least enough "yes" votes that people who claim "NO ONE wants it open" will have to concede that there are in fact many people in the city who want it, even if not a majority. Then maybe a few years down the road as downtown continues to evolve public attitudes may change enough to reopen the discussion.

Yes, I think even if the decision to open the corner is delayed it will not go away. I don't remember hearing anything from the stakeholders at the intersection about their opinion. I would think the Richardsons would be in favour of anything that improves the aesthetics of the city. Have they made a statement, or do they prefer to avoid looking like they are "interfering" with a civic decision?

[Wpg_Guy]

Originally Posted by pspeid

Yes, I think even if the decision to open the corner is delayed it will not go away. I don't remember hearing anything from the stakeholders at the intersection about their opinion. I would think the Richardsons would be in favour of anything that improves the aesthetics of the city. Have they made a statement, or do they prefer to avoid looking like they are "interfering" with a civic decision?

All the stakeholders have pledged their support in opening the intersection. The properties at P+M are affected the most by the intersections current situation and id imagine they would want to be able to compete with True North Square. Tenants nowadays are attracted to amenities for their employees that include access to great outdoor spaces, accessibility and close to public and active transportation routes.


]

[Wpg_Guy]

Originally Posted by pspeid

I didn't know this...very cool!

Even if the referendum is close, even a "no" vote doesn't kill the project as it isn't binding. There are several ways Bowman (and forward-thinking allies) can still open up the intersection, and this is one consideration that hasn't been discussed: bringing Portage & Main up to modern standards with regards to menial health considerations.

Or if there is a disabled person brave enough to launch a human rights complaint against the city, but even the coalition for the disabled has been standing idly by.

Accessibility issues go beyond Portage, Main
Organization says many crossings challenge people with disabilities

An organization that advocates for the elimination of barriers to people with disabilities in Manitoba says the reopening of Portage and Main to pedestrians holds the promise for greater accessibility, but it doesn’t want the corner to become another problem intersection.

Patrick Falconer, a spokesman and consultant for Barrier-Free Manitoba, said the group has not formally taken a position on the pedestrian crossings through Portage and Main, adding it’s not the only intersection in Winnipeg that is difficult for individuals with disabilities.

"Several members of the disability community have expressed concern to us about safety issues in crossing busy intersections to which they feel vulnerable, as well as the need for longer lights to cross intersections and/or safe and accessible rest spots halfway through if more than one light is needed to cross," Falconer said.

"We are not saying that such concerns (at Portage and Main) cannot be addressed. All that we are saying is that they are important and we have yet seen plans for how they would be addressed."

Barrier-Free Manitoba was established in 2008 to advocate for provincial legislation to eliminate barriers for people with disabilities. With the Accessibility for Manitobans Act in place, the group is working to ensure its implementation.

A detailed design study that would have dealt with traffic and pedestrian concerns through the intersection was recently put on hold by city officials after council voted to put the Portage and Main reopening question on the Oct. 24 civic election ballot.

A second consulting contract to improve the underground, city-owned concourse was awarded last week and a final report is due by Oct. 12.

Falconer said he recognizes that the Yes campaign is promoting the re­opening as an accessibility issue, but added that people need to realize the underground concourse will remain open and the accessibility issues there need to be addressed, as well.

"The current accessibility limitations of the concourse below Portage and Main is unacceptable," he said.

"Assuming that the concourse remains open to the public, there seems to be a compelling need to address its accessibility limitations too, quite independent of the proposed pedestrian crosswalk. Many Winnipeggers will continue to use the concourse as a preferred way to cross the intersection."

Falconer said there is concern now that people with a range of disabilities — mobility issues, vision problems or other physical impairments — cannot safely cross many intersections in Winnipeg because the signal lights do not provide enough time for them to do so.

He said city hall has identified other problem intersections but hasn’t released information on how the accessibility issues have been dealt with, or produced a timetable to deal with concerns that haven’t been addressed yet.

aldo.santin@freepress.mb.ca

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/lo...491329991.html

[kalabaw]

Originally Posted by pspeid

The Portage & Main "debate" reminds me so much of all the other development debates we have had in the past. Anyone remember the controversy over digging out the boat basin at The Forks? It was going to bring unprecedented levels of pollution from boats leaking their oil and gasoline (it didn't) and disturb ancient burial grounds (there weren't any-people don't bury their dead where they live). How about the Eaton's building/area debate? The new area was supposed to unleashed crowds of testosterone-crazed mobs on the streets that would attack any women they saw (the crowds just painted their faces white and many of the crowd were women). It goes on and on.

In support of opening Portage & Main I like to ask people on the "no" side what their work place is like or, if they have kids in school, what their kid's school is like. Does your workplace have an attractive lobby and plaza (like most new buildings) or is is beige and functional? Do you kids go to a school with attractive grounds, or do they sit in a "box" with as many desks squeezed in side-by side as possible? As important as functionality, efficiency and safety is, aesthetics is just as important. Portage & Main is, historically, the "front lobby" for Winnipeg's financial and business sector. Our "lobby" needs to suggest confidence and dynamism to anyone who passes through it.

You make a very good analogy there. And I hope people realize that people are not as bad as they think and that opening a bloody intersection would cause chaos and end of times for Winnipeg.

I was talking to a colleague and he is against opening the intersection because Winnipegers are a bunch of hard-headed, lacking discipline bunch of people. He said people will just cross the street and ignore traffic lights which could cause accident, further aggravating traffic. I mean c'mon! Do people really believe Winnipegers are that bad? Besides, you don't know undisciplined pedestrians until you see some countries in Asia!