Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[eleetham]

I rather see the mayor Erin Mendenhall used the parcel of land near the Rio Grande and Intermoda Hub, of mixed high rise apartment hotels restaurant and bars grocery store along with shops also a mixture of office towers and condos that has a vibrant energy when you take the train coming Ogden or Provo to shop or work. From the rendering drawing it just a blah boring place of nothing exciting to see. Come on now Salt Lake City. Take notes from the Denver LoDo District,Los Angeles near the Staple Center it’s the reason people will flock and have a good time or a good night life when visiting Salt Lake City. Just my thought and opinion.

[Rileybo]

Originally Posted by Comrade

I like the block connections but it's just another valuable plot of land downtown getting used up by a rather forgettable looking development.

We need a couple big boy buildings on the East and west sides of downtown. When developers see that nearly All of the buildings off of main are under 200” they don’t envision the need to break the ceiling. It’s partially why we keep seeing the same damn apartment building built on 400 S, 600 S, 400 E and so on. It’s infuriating seeing these huge lots of land with so much potential being gobbled up by short sprawling crap. Once all the land is used up, it’s not the late-20th and 21st century buildings that are going to be redeveloped; we’re going to lose old historic structures long before these new cheap buildings. We already are.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Rileybo

We need a couple big boy buildings on the East and west sides of downtown. When developers see that nearly All of the buildings off of main are under 200” they don’t envision the need to break the ceiling. It’s partially why we keep seeing the same damn apartment building built on 400 S, 600 S, 400 E and so on. It’s infuriating seeing these huge lots of land with so much potential being gobbled up by short sprawling crap. Once all the land is used up, it’s not the late-20th and 21st century buildings that are going to be redeveloped; we’re going to lose old historic structures long before these new cheap buildings. We already are.

Agreed.

That whole section of State Street is a joke in terms of overall height. The irony is that we finally had two potential proposals set to break through and both have been scaled back - this one & Liberty Sky.

But both now conform to the other towers located in that genera area.

Liberty Sky is a bit taller but only marginally at 250 feet.

255 South State looks no more taller than the Broadway Center, which is 196 feet.

Parkside Tower is 196 feet.

The Maverik Tower, or whatever it's called, is 175 feet.

And the Marriott is 198 feet.

It's just unfortunate they're all below 300 feet and roughly the same height.

The only saving grace is 95 State at City Creek, but whatever.

At least it'll fill the hole there (hopefully - has construction even started?).

[stayinginformed]

As promised, here is a photo of liberty square today.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by stayinginformed

As promised, here is a photo of liberty square today.

Looks like a motel.

[Blah_Amazing]

Alta Depot


As a (somewhat) defense of the Alta Depot project, I personally think the project shows most of Salt Lake City's recent changes to zoning are working. While the project is not to the level most of us would hope for, I think it shows positive movement for the neighborhood.



My reasoning:
Part 1: Bad Surroundings
1) This particular part of the city was already limited by the severe barriers to walkability on the west side due to the freeway doubled up with the train tracks. Both of these elements are typically seen as a negatives for redevelopment, as most people don't want to live, work, play, and be outside near either of these things.

2) The development of The Gateway furthered this problem, by completely ignoring the west side of the project by providing little in the way of accessibility and no mid-block accesses. It acts as a relatively severe wall against the west side of the neighborhood and makes it more difficult to create a complete neighborhood and walkable community.

3) The first phase of the development had no requirements set on it for midblock access, and therefore it also acts as an additional barrier, and prevents the mid-block access from actually making it to 500 West.

4) Up until its closure, the negative impact that The Road Home had on the neighborhood's prospects was clear. The first phase of this project was only moved forward AFTER the city announced the plans to close the shelter. However, the negative reputation the area had developed resulted in the first group of developments taking on a somewhat fortress-like feel with basically no focus on street engagement.

5) The roads in this particular section have been in absolutely horrible condition for some time, and desperately need to be redone for it to become a more inviting and walkable area.



Part 2: This Project

6) The addition of the mid-block (while somewhat underwhelming), shows the city has already been improving and trying to push for positive changes. The access would also help to benefit the two other projects that it runs between (Centro Civico & Casa Milagro).

7) I am most upset that the project still includes so much parking (project calls for a 1.3 stall per unit ratio (zoning limits to 0.5 stall per unit)), since it is literally a block from Salt Lake Central Station and the Old Greektown Station. This is absolutely not okay, and the city shouldn't give them the parking exceptions.

Part 3: The Future

8) The city should use this project as a learning experience, and make changes to the GMU zoning with things such as raising height mins and maxes and set min requirements on mid-block accesses.

9) The neighborhood itself still has tons of potential, with plenty of land to the north and west to create a more mixed-use development in addition to the station center plans by the RDA (whenever that actually happens (seriously what is taking so long)) to the south).

[Marvland]

Originally Posted by Blah_Amazing

Part 3: The Future

8) The city should use this project as a learning experience, and make changes to the GMU zoning with things such as raising height mins and maxes and set min requirements on mid-block accesses.

9) The neighborhood itself still has tons of potential, with plenty of land to the north and west to create a more mixed-use development in addition to the station center plans by the RDA (whenever that actually happens (seriously what is taking so long)) to the south).

They should just change it to a form based zone like C9. The results have been good. Break up the roof lines. These hat topped buildings need to be stopped. Alta Gateway doesn't bother me so much except the 100 S street front portion. Love to see "non vertical" horizontal mixed use requirements in more zones. Meaning, we all know vertical mixed use doesn't yield good tenancy unless you are CBD. Require street front retail along designated streets only (ie no residential above) and allow additional height as a bonus behind. The only way to do it and I'm struck at why we don't use it. BUT the main issue I have is how we are just bleeding old buildings on major corridors again. That we may see all of old Greek Town go up in smoke to these underwhelming garbage boxes is very sad.

[Atlas]

Originally Posted by Blah_Amazing

I like the perspective of this map, very informative. That said, you're missing the "Central West" apartments that are poised to replace In The Venue on the corner of 200S and 600W. IMO, this project is even worse than the Alta Depot: cookie-cutter, unimaginative, no street engagement, replaces something better, and located on a prominent corner. The original "Central Station" will complete the sandwich of the two remaining historic Greek Town buildings.

[Comrade]

Yikes. I didn't realize the end-game here was to essentially do away with all those historic buildings, especially In the Venue, one of the more popular music venues in the valley.

Yeah. I am sorry but no one can defend what this neighborhood is becoming. It's losing any chance of actually being a neighborhood. It's trash.

Salt Lake City is increasingly becoming a glorified suburb with cheap apartments, still no emphasis on creating walkable, viable neighborhoods and really no goddamn checks and balances anymore.

[Ironweed]

Originally Posted by Atlas

It's interesting how different the approach for Liberty Sky's construction has been compared to 95 State. Not much of a core at this point and they are working on the third floor:

Just north of this, Boyer still will have a small lot. Do they intend to develop it as well?

[Rileybo]

Originally Posted by Blah_Amazing

Alta Depot

Oh man, this is so bad. Every aspect is just terrible.

[Comrade]

I think my main objection to these developments, and we're seeing 'em more and more in Salt Lake, is that they're not really any different from what you're seeing in the suburbs. Okay, you're getting denser residential development - but is it actually pedestrian engaged?

No.

How is what's happening to the Depot District any different than what they're doing in WVC around Fairbourne Station? It's basically the same concept - mostly residential with minimal street retail. That's not a neighborhood. It's a lifestyle center.

Instead of trying to build around the historic GreekTown TRAX stop, we're demolishing them for apartments with little neighborhood engagement. Right there, the neighborhood is going to lose a very popular night club. Why shouldn't 200 South be the hub of a SugarHouse-like area?

Clubs, bars and restaurants to give the neighborhood an actual neighborhood vibe.

I don't get it. Salt Lake lacks so many of these neighborhood centers. Especially compared to other cities in the region - like Denver and Portland.

This was a perfect opportunity for the city to create a somewhat historic, urban and hip neighborhood. Instead, they're replicating Fairbourne Station in WVC and I guarantee you the pedestrian engagement will be just about as much as we're seeing in that area right now (hint: very little).

Such a bummer.

Salt Lake shoots so low sometimes that it has created this view that any type of development is a good development. I wish we had more aggressive and boldness with our development.

[Atlas]

Until I looked today, I honestly didn't realize how many cool music venues were in that area. In addition to In the Venue there's The Complex, Metro Music Hall, and The Depot at the Gateway. Losing one of them to such an awful project is almost offensive. They literally took the original "Central Station" design, which was bland already and has no attempt at street engagement, hit Ctrl+C, inverted it, and pasted it on top of In the Venue. I really hope that developer gets some serious pushback at when the Planning Commission reviews the design (same goes for Alta Depot).

So I agree with Comrade: with all of these existing venues, historic buildings, and access to TRAX, it would really be great to turn this Depot District into SLC's music and entertainment hub, with lots of street activity, housing, and nightlife. These projects, while they do bring residents, will not bring any vitality as designed. Projects with the quality of Dixon Place or the Post District would be much more appropriate.

[Comrade]

It's only a matter of time before Sun Trapp, the most iconic gay bar in Salt Lake, is gobbled up and shuttered for another god-awful, cookie cutter apartment complex.

[Always Sunny in SLC]

Originally Posted by Comrade

I think my main objection to these developments, and we're seeing 'em more and more in Salt Lake, is that they're not really any different from what you're seeing in the suburbs. Okay, you're getting denser residential development - but is it actually pedestrian engaged?

No.

How is what's happening to the Depot District any different than what they're doing in WVC around Fairbourne Station? It's basically the same concept - mostly residential with minimal street retail. That's not a neighborhood. It's a lifestyle center.

Instead of trying to build around the historic GreekTown TRAX stop, we're demolishing them for apartments with little neighborhood engagement. Right there, the neighborhood is going to lose a very popular night club. Why shouldn't 200 South be the hub of a SugarHouse-like area?

Clubs, bars and restaurants to give the neighborhood an actual neighborhood vibe.

I don't get it. Salt Lake lacks so many of these neighborhood centers. Especially compared to other cities in the region - like Denver and Portland.

This was a perfect opportunity for the city to create a somewhat historic, urban and hip neighborhood. Instead, they're replicating Fairbourne Station in WVC and I guarantee you the pedestrian engagement will be just about as much as we're seeing in that area right now (hint: very little).

Such a bummer.

Salt Lake shoots so low sometimes that it has created this view that any type of development is a good development. I wish we had more aggressive and boldness with our development.

I couldn’t agree more. Other than density, which is the one thing that keeps me from being in despair, these projects bring nothing to the neighborhood as far as vitality, character, vibe, nightlife, etc. Further, the shared access road is going to be a very unsafe place to be after dark. A alley way that isn’t anything other than a pass through will become unsafe eventually.

[Blah_Amazing]

I was excited to see that Lowe Property Group has finally updated their website on the Post District. Other than some of the planned towers, this is the project I am most excited for! I think some of these images are different from the ones that were posted a few weeks ago, so I thought I'd include them. https://www.loweprop.com/post-district








It looks like they will be starting with the buildings they are calling 'Post House' https://www.loweprop.com/post-house , which they have listed separately on their site. Currently, Post House is also listed as 'Under Construction' so I am hoping we will be seeing some real progress on the sight very soon.

[DMTower]

Originally Posted by Comrade

Yikes. I didn't realize the end-game here was to essentially do away with all those historic buildings, especially In the Venue, one of the more popular music venues in the valley.

Yeah. I am sorry but no one can defend what this neighborhood is becoming. It's losing any chance of actually being a neighborhood. It's trash.

Salt Lake City is increasingly becoming a glorified suburb with cheap apartments, still no emphasis on creating walkable, viable neighborhoods and really no goddamn checks and balances anymore.

I really think they must be clueless as to what makes a city enjoyable. The way they propose developments, they either have never been out of a Utah suburb and seen how a walkable, thriving urban neighborhood works, or they do know their proposal is shit and they're just counting on the city council to be spineless and take any development they can get. It really is laughable how difficult it is to get a decent development built in Salt Lake, when other cities in the west have fantastic developments going up everywhere.

[Blah_Amazing]

Clearly, several of you liked 'In the Venue (I've never been).' However, they chose to sell to developers - and they will likely not be the last place to do so. The project was pre-covid and it's important to note that some of the most negatively impacted industries are similar event and entertainment spaces. It’s within the realm of possibility that several more popular food and entertainment locations will close due to financial hardship from this crisis. Even if they survive for now, they are in serious risk in the coming years due to the debt many are being forced to take on during these past few months.

The fact the In the Venue couldn't keep its doors open is a potential signal to the lack of demand or revenue for events spaces in this area, even prior to covid. Up until three years ago, nobody wanted to go near this part of the city, since it was synonymous with crime and the homeless - let alone banks willing to finance improvements or grand urban projects/schemes.

I personally think a lot of you are being a little overdramatic about this. You are basically demanding that this area goes from 0 to 100 instantly as if that is some normal occurrence. Do you really think if we start going through Portland or Denver block by block that we wouldn't find Alta Depot style structures even with all of their regulations? Of course we would.

The first few projects aren't as good, but they were the only ones willing to develop in a place swarming with homeless and police, no easily accessible walking paths, surrounded by freeways and industrial train lines, and roads that are crumbling to bits. Now that they have established to investors that the area is a safe investment, new and better projects can be demanded by the city going forwards.

Could Alta Depot be better? Heck yeah it could. Could the city still choose to demand improvements be made? Yes. But demanding and treating every project that is proposed as if they must either be enormous urban mega developments with tons of ground floor retail (that will likely never be filled) or they are trash/will be crime ridden is crazy. Honestly, if building a mid-block access in this development would somehow attract crime than you are essentially proving many of the developers' fear of the area correct -- anything that isn't fortress-like in design will endanger their future profits. It should also be noted that the midblock access proposed in this project is no different than the one in Sugarmont Apartments in Sugarhouse (they clearly were using that project as their inspiration). Should regulations regarding this be improved in the future? Yes. Is it the end of the world and the doom of Salt Lake? No, of course not.

We are already seeing great projects being proposed and built - such as The Post District, Block 67, Paperbox, and many other CBD projects. The city is improving and the projects that are proposed right now and some of its most ambitious in our history. I think Salt Lake City will eventually get to where a lot of you will at the very least will be okay with it. I'm personally looking forward to many of these amazing projects and I hope some of you are as well.

[delts145]

Originally Posted by Blah_Amazing

Clearly, several of you liked 'In the Venue (I've never been).' However, they chose to sell to developers - and they will likely not be the last place to do so. The project was pre-covid and it's important to note that some of the most negatively impacted industries are similar event and entertainment spaces. It’s within the realm of possibility that several more popular food and entertainment locations will close due to financial hardship from this crisis. Even if they survive for now, they are in serious risk in the coming years due to the debt many are being forced to take on during these past few months.

The fact the In the Venue couldn't keep its doors open is a potential signal to the lack of demand or revenue for events spaces in this area, even prior to covid. Up until three years ago, nobody wanted to go near this part of the city, since it was synonymous with crime and the homeless - let alone banks willing to finance improvements or grand urban projects/schemes.

I personally think a lot of you are being a little overdramatic about this. You are basically demanding that this area goes from 0 to 100 instantly as if that is some normal occurrence. Do you really think if we start going through Portland or Denver block by block that we wouldn't find Alta Depot style structures even with all of their regulations? Of course we would.

The first few projects aren't as good, but they were the only ones willing to develop in a place swarming with homeless and police, no easily accessible walking paths, surrounded by freeways and industrial train lines, and roads that are crumbling to bits. Now that they have established to investors that the area is a safe investment, new and better projects can be demanded by the city going forwards.

Could Alta Depot be better? Heck yeah it could. Could the city still choose to demand improvements be made? Yes. But demanding and treating every project that is proposed as if they must either be enormous urban mega developments with tons of ground floor retail (that will likely never be filled) or they are trash/will be crime ridden is crazy. Honestly, if building a mid-block access in this development would somehow attract crime than you are essentially proving many of the developers' fear of the area correct -- anything that isn't fortress-like in design will endanger their future profits. It should also be noted that the midblock access proposed in this project is no different than the one in Sugarmont Apartments in Sugarhouse (they clearly were using that project as their inspiration). Should regulations regarding this be improved in the future? Yes. Is it the end of the world and the doom of Salt Lake? No, of course not.

We are already seeing great projects being proposed and built - such as The Post District, Block 67, Paperbox, and many other CBD projects. The city is improving and the projects that are proposed right now and some of its most ambitious in our history. I think Salt Lake City will eventually get to where a lot of you will at the very least will be okay with it. I'm personally looking forward to many of these amazing projects and I hope some of you are as well.

Thank you Blah Amazing. Very much appreciated your post. The overwhelming majority of the Wasatch Front forum members definitely have a lot to look forward to this upcoming decade. Not only has Salt Lakes CSA made excellent strides on many fronts these past twenty years, but the focus and trajectory continues to improve. Like you I am looking forward to the many exciting developments currently occurring such as the ones you mentioned and many more areas like the Marmalade, Hardware District, Central 9th, etc.. From the University of Utah on the east to the new international airport on the west there are too many excellent projects to list. Also, not to forget the many stellar past developments such as the Library, CCC, Gallivan makeover, Public Safety Complex, the S-line developments, Sugarhouse Shopko demise, and on and on. Even Temple Square, which I always thought of as an outstanding beauty when compared to other downtown regions is getting a makeover that will greatly improve its important site lines. I am often passing through some of what would be considered the best that the West Coast has to offer in the way of multi-use venues. Even with those that newly opened before the COVID hit, none even come close to the amazing CCC's elegance, which is only going to expand and improve over the next decade. Salt Lake even dodged a bullet with its upcoming CCH. While I would have preferred it to be a little taller, at least we didn't get something that is all too common like the convention center hotels that have gone up in many cities like Phoenix or Portland.

Admittedly this is often a scary time, particularly here on the West Coast. What happened in some areas of the major cities such as Santa Monica is shocking and very disheartening. I was just visiting one of my favorite take out businesses a couple of days ago on one of West Central L.A.'s most vibrant sectors. Everywhere mom and pop shops, bars, restaurants were literally boarded up never to return, at least under their current ownership. The only reason that the shop that I visited was still open was because it has always been a primarily take-out bakery. Central Los Angeles feels like a ghost town compared to a few months ago, and it doesn't appear like the situation will change any time soon.

That said, with time circumstances will begin to improve, although in some areas it's going to take a lot more time than others. I strongly agree with the prevailing opinions of the experts. Salt Lake City and its CSA is in the top tier of cities that will shine and outpace most of the pack during the upcoming recovery.

The West Coast and California in particular has been my family's first and second home for 100 years now, and I will always love California. However, I'm looking forward to being able to spend a good part of my future residency in the Salt Lake City/Park City area in the future.

[RC14]

I use to live at Citifront, a block and a half from this proposed project. I always avoided walking down 100 or 200 south because that was during the height of the homeless situation. If I walked anywhere I would always us the North Temple bridge. During the time I lived there my car was stolen and my apartment was broken into, even though Citifront is one of those 'fortress like' projects. I have heard horror stories from people who lived in apartments in the surrounding area that were worse than what I experienced. In spite of this, I still loved that area and would live there again, especially now that it is cleaned up.
All this to say, I realize the Alta Gateway isn't the most exciting project in the world but I understand almost every aspect of it. I think it is appropriate for the area at this time. I would not live there if it wasn't fortress like or didn't have ample parking based on my experience.
My belief is that as the area gains density and more of these lots are filled we will start to see better, more urban projects. This project is not replacing anything desirable. It is an empty field and a bus garage in a sketchy, somewhat isolated, part of town. This project will bring in more residents which will inevitably create demand for retal and nightlife. IMO the area is already overdue for better retail development, it is only a matter of time.

That being said, I think the future of retail is up in the air right not. I don't think we should be demanding block after block of ground floor retail. In other parts of the country these places are shuttering. This was happening pre COVID due to Amazon and now with COVID 19 and the increased threat of looting and riots, I don't know how retail survives. It would not only require business owners who are willing to take the risk but banks and insurance companies as well. I think we will have to wait and see on that.