Cities that belong in other states

[Crawford]

That must be new, then. Allentown was part of NYC CSA.

[UrbanRevival]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I happen to think that Philadelphia is a great city on its own... but it always feels like locals want to almost immediately tout that NYC is 2 hours away or the shore is 60 miles away. It's clear that, at least subconsicously, they want to be part of Jersey.

I really don't think that's accurate, not at least amongst any Philadelphian I've met. I think this really gets to more of the quintessential "East vs. West" divide in PA.

And it's not as though New Jersey itself is homogenous; there's very distinct different between North and South Jersey. If anything, "Piedmont PA"--which encompasses the Philly area, the Lehigh Valley, and South-Central PA--really forms its own distinctive region, economically, demographically and politically.

[ChiSoxRox]

St. Louis seems more like Illinois's lost second city rather than the neglected primate metro of Missouri.

Maybe if the Mississippi had turned along the lower Missouri and carved out a path along the current Meramec River, leaving St. Louis County/City in Illinois.

Originally Posted by Crawford

That must be new, then. Allentown was part of NYC CSA.

Indeed, we got new statistical area definitions last July (PDF).

CSAs have mostly shrunken slightly (remote work removing the supercommuters?).

[bnk]

East St. Louis belongs in Missouri.

East Chicago belongs in Illinois along with Whiting and Hammond.

Might even be better Just to give all of Lake County Indiana to Illinois and of St. Clair and Monroe County to Missouri.

[202_Cyclist]

Alexandria and Arlington should be part of DC again.

[edale]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Mobile in LA, Memphis in MS, Charleston in GA.

Why would Charleston make sense in Georgia? It's basically the flagship city of South Carolina, and I think pretty integral to the identity of that state. Plus, Georgia already has its Charleston-ish city in Savannah.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

GR seems more similar to cities in those states than it does to other cities in Michigan. The other big city centers in Michigan are "rusty" prewar cities with a large Black population. Grand Rapids is more postwar and, other than Lansing, is the only "major" city in Michigan where Black people are not the majority of the population.

Well, it's important to remember that Wisconsin's primary city is pretty damn rusty and heavily black too, along with having many rusty smaller cities like Racine, Kenosha, Beloit, etc.as well.

I have always associated GR with that whole dutch-american thing in western michigan, which is relatively unique to that region, so it's never seemed very "fish outta water" to me.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by edale

Why would Charleston make sense in Georgia? It's basically the flagship city of South Carolina, and I think pretty integral to the identity of that state. Plus, Georgia already has its Charleston-ish city in Savannah.

To me, lowland SC is extremely different from upland SC. Savannah and Charleston inhabit the same cultural space, and it's very different from most of SC.

[meh]

Originally Posted by ChiSoxRox

St. Louis seems more like Illinois's lost second city rather than the neglected primate metro of Missouri.

i guess it would be marginally better to be neglected in a blue state than in a red state.

[iheartthed]

I think Savannah seems more of the outlier in Georgia and would fit better in the Carolinas. However, the Carolinas and Georgia have the same dynamic where the coastal culture is distinct from the bigger inland cities and feels more "colonial" versus the new big cities inland. Atlanta, Greenville, and Charlotte, are probably more like each other than they are the older coastal cities in their states.

[edale]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I think Savannah seems more of the Georgia outlier in Georgia and would fit better in the Carolinas. However, the Carolinas and Georgia have the same dynamic where the coastal culture is distinct from the bigger inland cities and feels more "colonial" versus the new big cities inland. Atlanta, Greenville, and Charlotte, are probably more like each other than they are the older coastal cities in their states.

Yeah, I agree with this. Greenville seems like more of the outlier in SC than Charleston. The state flag of SC has a palmetto tree on it, which is characteristic of coastal SC, and not found in the Greenville area. Greenville and that uplands portion of SC seems more like North Carolina or Georgia to me. Charleston is quintessential South Carolina imo. There are plenty of other coastal, beachy areas of SC like Myrtle Beach, Hilton Head, etc. Georgia has Tybee Island, but I can't think of too many other notable beach/coastal towns. I agree that Savannah would fit better in SC than Georgia.

[cabasse]

Originally Posted by edale

Yeah, I agree with this. Greenville seems like more of the outlier in SC than Charleston. The state flag of SC has a palmetto tree on it, which is characteristic of coastal SC, and not found in the Greenville area. Greenville and that uplands portion of SC seems more like North Carolina or Georgia to me. Charleston is quintessential South Carolina imo. There are plenty of other coastal, beachy areas of SC like Myrtle Beach, Hilton Head, etc. Georgia has Tybee Island, but I can't think of too many other notable beach/coastal towns. I agree that Savannah would fit better in SC than Georgia.

atlantans who want to go to a beach in georgia generally pick the beach towns outside brunswick, the other significant port city - saint simons island, jekyll island, sea island. (the second being the location from where the federal reserve originated, and the latter of which being where the late john portman had his other home, entelechy II) tybee island has potential but it also has a reputation for being kinda trashy, unfortunately...

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by UrbanRevival

I really don't think that's accurate, not at least amongst any Philadelphian I've met. I think this really gets to more of the quintessential "East vs. West" divide in PA.

And it's not as though New Jersey itself is homogenous; there's very distinct different between North and South Jersey. If anything, "Piedmont PA"--which encompasses the Philly area, the Lehigh Valley, and South-Central PA--really forms its own distinctive region, economically, demographically and politically.

Philadelphia feels much more tied to New Jersey than it is tied to the rest of PA, including the Lehigh Valley and south central PA. It really has nothing to do with an "East vs West" divide of Pennsylvania. The fact is that Philly more closely associates with south Jersey and up to NYC than it does with the vast majority of eastern PA even.

Across the Delaware River is Philly suburbs. While sprawl has stretched northward, it would be a very long shot to refer to the Lehigh Valley similarly. To say nothing of trying to make the same association with south central PA... I mean, you really think that Philadelphians think of York, Chambersburg, Shippensburg, etc. the same way they think of south Jersey in relation to their city/region?

And I'm not at all claiming that NJ is homogenous. Philly, due to its geographic location within the state of PA, its history, and its proximity to NYC wtih its massive pull, is just naturally going to be attracted away from the rest of its own state... and that force of attraction pulls it into NJ, way way way more than any notion of a cohesive "Piedmont PA" pulls it in the other direction.

[muertecaza]

I feel like St. George should maybe be in Nevada--it's in the Mojave Desert and outside the Great Basin that has most of the population of Utah.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Philadelphia feels much more tied to New Jersey than it is tied to the rest of PA, including the Lehigh Valley and south central PA. It really has nothing to do with an "East vs West" divide of Pennsylvania. The fact is that Philly more closely associates with south Jersey and up to NYC than it does with the vast majority of eastern PA even.

Across the Delaware River is Philly suburbs. While sprawl has stretched northward, it would be a very long shot to refer to the Lehigh Valley similarly. To say nothing of trying to make the same association with south central PA... I mean, you really think that Philadelphians think of York, Chambersburg, Shippensburg, etc. the same way they think of south Jersey in relation to their city/region?

And I'm not at all claiming that NJ is homogenous. Philly, due to its geographic location within the state of PA, its history, and its proximity to NYC wtih its massive pull, is just naturally going to be attracted away from the rest of its own state... and that force of attraction pulls it into NJ, way way way more than any notion of a cohesive "Piedmont PA" pulls it in the other direction.

I always thought that Metro Philly was tilted to the PA side more than the NJ side. I also think that eastern PA towns, out to about Harrisburg, feel like little Philadelphias. Western PA is definitely its own thing, though.

[UrbanRevival]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Philadelphia feels much more tied to New Jersey than it is tied to the rest of PA, including the Lehigh Valley and south central PA. It really has nothing to do with an "East vs West" divide of Pennsylvania. The fact is that Philly more closely associates with south Jersey and up to NYC than it does with the vast majority of eastern PA even.

I mean, I understand the point that geographically being located on the eastern edge of PA creates "spillover" effect, but that's just the dynamic of being a large metro area centered on a state border. There's obviously an economic connection to NJ in the Philly area, but I think that's very distinctive from NJ being a "pull." In fact, it's quite the opposite; South Jersey is really "pulled" into the PA sphere, just as North Jersey is "pulled" into the NY sphere.

But again, the metro pull cuts both ways. Philly is the indisputable anchor of Southeastern PA, and yes, that pull most definitely goes as far north as the Lehigh Valley, and as far west as Southcentral PA, based on historic links, commuter patterns, culture, etc. Metro areas are always centrifugal in nature.

I'm an eastern PA native who really grew up in the exurbs of Philly. I'm well aware of the "Philly belongs in NJ" trope, which is decades old, and at its core, a politically-tinged lament that originated amongst the rural PA crowd for reasons of political resentment. But it doesn't have any meaningful basis in reality.

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I always thought that Metro Philly was tilted to the PA side more than the NJ side. I also think that eastern PA towns, out to about Harrisburg, feel like little Philadelphias. Western PA is definitely its own thing, though.

Yes, you're correct on all of the above.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I always thought that Metro Philly was tilted to the PA side more than the NJ side. I also think that eastern PA towns, out to about Harrisburg, feel like little Philadelphias. Western PA is definitely its own thing, though.

Stating that Philadelphia is "tilted toward the PA side", how?

Maybe tilted to itself... meaning that the city is tilted more to its own in-state suburban "collar" counties (Delaware, Montgomery, Bucks, part of Chester) than it is to its NJ counterparts, sure, I'll agree there. But certainly not more tilted to eastern PA towns like you mention out to Harrisburg, etc. than it is to NJ/NY. As I mentioned above, there is no way that Philly somehow experiences more of a pull to York or Chambersburg or Harrisburg or Hershey than it experiences from NJ/NY. Philadelphia by and large looks to the east, not to the west.

Towns in the southeastern quad of PA looking like "little Philadelphias" really has nothing to do with the topic. It's not as if those towns influenced Philadelphia to become the way it is -- the opposite is true.

Originally Posted by UrbanRevival

I mean, I understand the point that geographically being located on the eastern edge of PA creates "spillover" effect, but that's just the dynamic of being a large metro area centered on state border. There's obviously an economic connection to NJ in the Philly area, but I think that's very distinctive from NJ being a "pull." In fact, it's quite the opposite; South Jersey is really pulled into the PA sphere, just as North Jersey is pulled into the NY sphere.

But again, the metro pull cuts both ways. Philly is the indisputable anchor of Southeastern PA, and yes, that pull most definitely goes as far north as the Lehigh Valley, and as far west as Southcentral PA, based on historic links, commuter patterns, culture, etc. Metro areas are always centrifugal in nature.

I'm an eastern PA native not from the city; I'm well aware of the "Philly belongs in NJ" trope, which is decades old, and really is a politically tinged lament that originated amongst the rural PA crowd. But it has no actual basis other than plain old resentment.

I'm not talking about a stupid trope though.

I fully agree that south Jersey is pulled into the Philly sphere... a natural effect of being within its "metro orbit".

And yes, of course Philly is the SE PA anchor and exerts pull on areas throughout the region (south Jersey and up to Mercer, Monmouth, and Middlesex counties included).

But none of this has anything to do with the fact that as a unit, Philadelphia is pulled more to the east by the NJ/NY area than it is by the rest of PA, by far. Just because places like the Lehigh Valley and south central PA are influenced historically and currently by Philadelphia doesn't make them more of an influence on Philly than the largest urban agglomeration in the nation is.

Claiming that Harrisburg or other cities and towns in south central PA (separated by up to roughly 100 miles of farmland from Philadelphia) exert greater attractive forces on Philadelphia than the attractive forces that New York City and the contiguous mass of urbanization through New Jersey connecting the two cities exert... is absurd.

[Docere]

Does Memphis fit better with Mississippi? It's very much the Deep South.

[TempleGuy1000]

Philadelphia is the quintessential city of Pennsylvania. Literally founded by the man who the state takes it's name from. Allentown, the third largest city in PA, is named after a former mayor of Philadelphia. The Pennsylvania Railroad, once the world's largest corporation, was HQ'd at the heart of Philadelphia. You can go to reading terminal market every day and buy goods made by the Amish.

Pittsburgher's have this bizarre tendency to downplay Philadelphia as "less PA" because it's far away from them. Well given how many more people live in the eastern part of the state, Pittsburgh might as well be merged into West Virginia or Ohio. Where do you think Milton Hershey first started his candy career? What about PNC? Or Sunoco? C'mon now.
It also gives me the opportunity to share the popular PA version of the mad men meme lol

Stating that Philadelphia is "tilted toward the PA side", how?

Have you never heard of the Main Line or looked at map before? What a silly thing to say

The four biggest counties of the metro are on the PA side.

[pdxtex]

Savannah is like New Orleans' long lost cousin. Portland should just admit it wants to be like California and ask to be annexed. Seattle is fine where it is and is satisfied being the Boston of the west.