Tempe Development Thread

[phoenixwillrise]

Eliminating parking or no parking in an apartment complex is "a cute eco friendly idea" but not in a city that gets to 120% and heat reflecting off the concrete at a much higher number. Does someone really want to be hailing an Uber,(waiting for it in that heat), and then walking from the street in that temperature through a big complex hauling their groceries or whatever. Let's get real. Talk is cheap actually enduring that kind of self abuse is a whole different game.

[cdfif030]

Most of these apartment complexes, as with this one, are marketed toward college students who not only want to be close to campus, but are in the city when we experience our best weather. I went to buy a parking pass as I started a supplemental instruction position on the Tempe campus, but all the available lots for me at the time were on the far north side of campus. I would be expected to walk from a parking lot by A mountain to university drive where my school is, so I just eat the 12$ daily to park by my school in a non student lot. The majority of the new apartments being built are on the university’s front door likely encompassing a shorter commute than my affordable options would be. Living in one of these saves students a lot of time and hassle commuting to and from campus. There is clearly demand too because they keep building the complexes with more units than parking, not merely for the cute eco friendly idea.

[combusean]

Apparently, Cul-de-sac's tighter-knit warrens will minimize the direct overhead sun exposure. This is something it also apparently borrows from hot summer Mediterranean climates in places like Greece like Mykanos but I'm too far removed to defend this.

Heat reflecting off of concrete is probably better off in these circumstances than the heat island, but I dont know if CdS's materials will perform as they intend.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by phoenixwillrise

Eliminating parking or no parking in an apartment complex is "a cute eco friendly idea" but not in a city that gets to 120% and heat reflecting off the concrete at a much higher number. Does someone really want to be hailing an Uber,(waiting for it in that heat), and then walking from the street in that temperature through a big complex hauling their groceries or whatever. Let's get real. Talk is cheap actually enduring that kind of self abuse is a whole different game.

120% of what? I'd say this argument is 120% overused. It's not 120 degrees (I assume what you really meant) most of the year, and even when it is, it's perfectly possible to wait indoors for a ride and then receive an alert when the driver is outside. Many new buildings have dedicated rideshare pickup/dropoff areas right outside their entrances, often closer than tenant parking.

The "too hot" argument is just a sad, tired cliche whether it's used to advocate against parking reform, bike lanes, public transit, walkable streets, or anything else. Many cities around the world have extreme weather, and they adapt to it without being all about cars all the time, a maladaptive strategy that just increases heat absorption and retention. We can do the same.

[DesertRay]

Originally Posted by phoenixwillrise

Eliminating parking or no parking in an apartment complex is "a cute eco friendly idea" but not in a city that gets to 120% and heat reflecting off the concrete at a much higher number. Does someone really want to be hailing an Uber,(waiting for it in that heat), and then walking from the street in that temperature through a big complex hauling their groceries or whatever. Let's get real. Talk is cheap actually enduring that kind of self abuse is a whole different game.

That's quite the false dilemma. Walking through an ocean of heat collectors we call parking lots to get into the heat concentrator called your car is worse. Calling an Uber, and then stepping in from the shade (or from your door) into an air conditioned car is pretty ideal in comparison. The idea of cheap parking really needs to die if we are going to survive as a city. Parking will never totally go away (and Cul de Sac has over 100 spots), but we're going to have to get smarter than we currently are, which means dropping the parking subsidy, and making sure that we offer a range of options.

Also, have you never heard of grocery delivery?

[DesertRay]

Originally Posted by combusean

Apparently, Cul-de-sac's tighter-knit warrens will minimize the direct overhead sun exposure. This is something it also apparently borrows from hot summer Mediterranean climates in places like Greece like Mykanos but I'm too far removed to defend this.

Heat reflecting off of concrete is probably better off in these circumstances than the heat island, but I dont know if CdS's materials will perform as they intend.

I also wonder if there can be a combination of carefully placed ultra-white paint (on the roof?) and/or some solar where the sun is most intense to capture some of this radiant energy and convert it to air-conditioning. Having the temps in the 90s during the day when it is that hot elsewhere would be really, really nice.

[ASU Diablo]

Originally Posted by DesertRay

Also, have you never heard of grocery delivery?

This. And if your little heart desires, you can even pay extra and the delivery guys will literally come into your home and put your groceries away for you.

[MiEncanto]

People should get less exercised about parking minimums.

Want a place where everyone has 2 cars and parks them appropriately? Me too. We have places for that.

Wanna live in a dense area without a car? We can have that too. It may not be for you. But it allows for greater density in important areas, reducing living costs for everyone.

And I hear your barking about parking and places being overparked. That's what city enforcement is for. You need metered street parking that is actually enforced to keep the cars moving.

My opinion is the market will largely sort this stuff out.

[az_daniel]

Originally Posted by phoenixwillrise

Eliminating parking or no parking in an apartment complex is "a cute eco friendly idea" but not in a city that gets to 120% and heat reflecting off the concrete at a much higher number. Does someone really want to be hailing an Uber,(waiting for it in that heat), and then walking from the street in that temperature through a big complex hauling their groceries or whatever. Let's get real. Talk is cheap actually enduring that kind of self abuse is a whole different game.

Nah, this is a great to see and Tempe is absolutely a part of the metro that can support this - and there clearly is demand for it. College students don't tend to have cars, either.

People run their daily errands without cars all the time in Phoenix, and in places with much worse weather. Lets get real - our summer temps are typically perfectly tolerable for short distance walking or biking, waiting for an uber or train - which is totally sufficient for getting around in Tempe. Personally, I'd also much rather spend a few mins waiting in the shade and the breeze on a hot day than getting into a brutally hot car.

If that is not for you, then that's fine - but other people want that, and developers are responding by making investments in development that offers that lifestyle (its not just talk anymore). it's time for people to accept that Tempe is urban and should no longer be forced to develop on the terms of suburbia because some people think its too hot to walk a few blocks.

[phoenixwillrise]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

120% of what? I'd say this argument is 120% overused. It's not 120 degrees (I assume what you really meant) most of the year, and even when it is, it's perfectly possible to wait indoors for a ride and then receive an alert when the driver is outside. Many new buildings have dedicated rideshare pickup/dropoff areas right outside their entrances, often closer than tenant parking.

The "too hot" argument is just a sad, tired cliche whether it's used to advocate against parking reform, bike lanes, public transit, walkable streets, or anything else. Many cities around the world have extreme weather, and they adapt to it without being all about cars all the time, a maladaptive strategy that just increases heat absorption and retention. We can do the same.

First sorry my computer doesn't have the correct symbol for degrees but that's the closest I could come up with. Looks like you got the point!
I would concede that if you could not afford a car or were a college student who was young and single it might work but sorry not in the average real world with say a family doing the tasks required to exist in a city at 120 DEGREES with heat reflecting off the sidewalk at much greater DEGREES. Tell a person who has worked in the heat all day, say a contractor, roofer, landscaper etc. that you think it would be a great idea for them to participate in this eco friendly experiment of no car. You will laughed out of their presence and they will tell where to take your sad, tired cliche.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by phoenixwillrise

First sorry my computer doesn't have the correct symbol for degrees but that's the closest I could come up with. Looks like you got the point!
I would concede that if you could not afford a car or were a college student who was young and single it might work but sorry not in the average real world with say a family doing the tasks required to exist in a city at 120 DEGREES with heat reflecting off the sidewalk at much greater DEGREES. Tell a person who has worked in the heat all day, say a contractor, roofer, landscaper etc. that you think it would be a great idea for them to participate in this eco friendly experiment of no car. You will laughed out of their presence and they will tell where to take your sad, tired cliche.

I would never recommend that a contractor, roofer, or landscaper live in an apartment community with little or no parking, but not because of concerns about occupational heat exposure. In fact, I find that people who work in the heat every day are less likely to complain about it than white collar types who work in air-conditioned offices. The reason I would not recommend one of these apartments to anyone in those occupations is that those types of work often require the use of personal vehicles to reach far-flung job sites and to haul supplies and equipment.

As so many people here have said, these apartments aren't for everyone. In fact, I'd say they're a niche product at this point. That's okay, though. In a metropolitan area of five million people, there's a critical mass for many different types of niche products. You've admitted that you could see some populations valuing this type of apartment, and I even know some families who might embrace it. Acknowleding that diversity of preferences in no way takes away parking from the much larger population that values it. All it does is create more options for different types of consumers.

If these projects have trouble leasing their apartments, then more like them won't be built. The market will correct itself. I doubt that outcome, however. There are a wide variety of preferences here, and for too long, we've used arbitrary regulations to try to force one set of suburban standards on everyone without regard for individual priorities or adverse consequences. Forcing everyone to live a suburban, car-dependent lifestyle is every bit as bad as forcing everyone to live in crowded urban apartments. Let's avoid either extreme by allowing a market-based approach to parking and retiring hackneyed arguments about heat.

By the way, I usually just type the word "degree," but if you want to create the symbol with your keyboard, here's how to do it: https://www.degreesymbol.net/

[az_daniel]

Originally Posted by phoenixwillrise

First sorry my computer doesn't have the correct symbol for degrees but that's the closest I could come up with. Looks like you got the point!
I would concede that if you could not afford a car or were a college student who was young and single it might work but sorry not in the average real world with say a family doing the tasks required to exist in a city at 120 DEGREES with heat reflecting off the sidewalk at much greater DEGREES. Tell a person who has worked in the heat all day, say a contractor, roofer, landscaper etc. that you think it would be a great idea for them to participate in this eco friendly experiment of no car. You will laughed out of their presence and they will tell where to take your sad, tired cliche.

well, they're in luck because the phoenix metro area contains hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of square miles of autocentric suburban sprawl available for those who want to live an autocentric lifestyle lol. this is for those who don't.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by phoenixwillrise

First sorry my computer doesn't have the correct symbol for degrees but that's the closest I could come up with. Looks like you got the point!
I would concede that if you could not afford a car or were a college student who was young and single it might work but sorry not in the average real world with say a family doing the tasks required to exist in a city at 120 DEGREES with heat reflecting off the sidewalk at much greater DEGREES. Tell a person who has worked in the heat all day, say a contractor, roofer, landscaper etc. that you think it would be a great idea for them to participate in this eco friendly experiment of no car. You will laughed out of their presence and they will tell where to take your sad, tired cliche.

Why so extreme? It’s very, very rarely 120 it’s happened like 3 times in recorded history, it’s not 120 at night when people who work in the day are home running errands, same thing in the morning for those commuting without a car from this place to work. As a large population doesn’t work outside this can be an appealing.

I’d rather deal with our climate then -20 and a blizzard. Walking in 90-105 degrees weather for 10-20 minutes is fine.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by locolife

Why so extreme? It’s very, very rarely 120 it’s happened like 3 times in recorded history, it’s not 120 at night when people who work in the day are home running errands, same thing in the morning for those commuting without a car from this place to work. As a large population doesn’t work outside this can be an appealing.

I’d rather deal with our climate then -20 and a blizzard. Walking in 90-105 degrees weather for 10-20 minutes is fine.

Thank you, If people can walk around in Chicago and Milwaukee and Minneapolis and Cleaveland and Buffalo and Detroit when the weather is Cold or wet or humid or some combination of those then the 3 months of summer heat is not an impediment.

The problem is we need more shade and trees and flowing water in places to echourage walking. Even in peak summer heat even if you dont want to spend time outside its fine to be out there for 20 -30 minutes with shade

[phoenixwillrise]

Originally Posted by Obadno

Thank you, If people can walk around in Chicago and Milwaukee and Minneapolis and Cleaveland and Buffalo and Detroit when the weather is Cold or wet or humid or some combination of those then the 3 months of summer heat is not an impediment.

The problem is we need more shade and trees and flowing water in places to echourage walking. Even in peak summer heat even if you dont want to spend time outside its fine to be out there for 20 -30 minutes with shade

Ok, number one, I was being sarcastic about 120 degrees. number two, I grew up in Phoenix and played football with preseason practice in August. That being said I sure as heck wouldn't want to lug groceries around or whatever walking to an apartment or condo in that summer heat. And I currently live in Bellingham, WA and I am in Phoenix frequently as I have a condo there. So to respond to the remark on the cold weather comparison comment. The big difference is you can put on layers of clothing when it's cold or rainy in other cities as of yet they haven't develop a way to peal your skin off to walk thru that heat. So I still say there is no way the majority of people would want to go car less. Aren't EV's enough? Do we really have to take mass transit or Uber's everywhere? Be real, how practical is that?

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by phoenixwillrise

Ok, number one, I was being sarcastic about 120 degrees. number two, I grew up in Phoenix and played football with preseason practice in August. That being said I sure as heck wouldn't want to lug groceries around or whatever walking to an apartment or condo in that summer heat. And I currently live in Bellingham, WA and I am in Phoenix frequently as I have a condo there. So to respond to the remark on the cold weather comparison comment. The big difference is you can put on layers of clothing when it's cold or rainy in other cities as of yet they haven't develop a way to peal your skin off to walk thru that heat. So I still say there is no way the majority of people would want to go car less. Aren't EV's enough? Do we really have to take mass transit or Uber's everywhere? Be real, how practical is that?

The earliest cities in human history were built in Arid climates 5000 years ago. They managed somehow

Debunked

[OcotilloTea]

No hate to PhoenixWillRise but I think you are perhaps just ignorant of what some people prefer. I lived car free in Tempe and would take the lightrail to work everyday throughout the summer and it was fine, I preferred that over driving to work. The heat is only really bad in the evening and by that time I didn't care if I was sweaty. A big point I would also point out is that what we see in Phoenix as the defacto urbanism is really really poorly suited for the type of environment we live in, and we could design our city to be WAY more friendly to pedestrian life in a hot desert environment. Look at cities in Spain or Morocco, lots of shade due to close together buildings, white roofs, little asphalt, many plants (not coincidentally this is exactly what culdesac tempe is implementing). People can and will still drive cars but don't presume that your preferences are the only way to live.

Originally Posted by phoenixwillrise

Ok, number one, I was being sarcastic about 120 degrees. number two, I grew up in Phoenix and played football with preseason practice in August. That being said I sure as heck wouldn't want to lug groceries around or whatever walking to an apartment or condo in that summer heat. And I currently live in Bellingham, WA and I am in Phoenix frequently as I have a condo there. So to respond to the remark on the cold weather comparison comment. The big difference is you can put on layers of clothing when it's cold or rainy in other cities as of yet they haven't develop a way to peal your skin off to walk thru that heat. So I still say there is no way the majority of people would want to go car less. Aren't EV's enough? Do we really have to take mass transit or Uber's everywhere? Be real, how practical is that?

[azcats]

They seem to be doing this more and more. Why didn't they think of this sooner?!? Especially at grocery store parking lots. More and more covers over parking spots in parking lots. It costs money - but, if customers demand it...or, will shop where they have them...

Something I do when down in the Valley in the summer: I jump in the car...turn it on...quickly roll down all the windows - turn on the A/C - then, jump out of the car for 5 minutes. It literally cools down the car from 220 degrees (well, I don't know - feels like it) to the outside temp: 107.

[phoenixwillrise]

Originally Posted by OcotilloTea

No hate to PhoenixWillRise but I think you are perhaps just ignorant of what some people prefer. I lived car free in Tempe and would take the lightrail to work everyday throughout the summer and it was fine, I preferred that over driving to work. The heat is only really bad in the evening and by that time I didn't care if I was sweaty. A big point I would also point out is that what we see in Phoenix as the defacto urbanism is really really poorly suited for the type of environment we live in, and we could design our city to be WAY more friendly to pedestrian life in a hot desert environment. Look at cities in Spain or Morocco, lots of shade due to close together buildings, white roofs, little asphalt, many plants (not coincidentally this is exactly what culdesac tempe is implementing). People can and will still drive cars but don't presume that your preferences are the only way to live.

Was MAJORITY, peace out!

[Obadno]

The one thing I still dont understand is why I see more and more places TEARING OUT SHADE TREES

I will forgive lawns but stop. There is something wildly off with our incentives that we are removing the most crucial thing for this hot climate.