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  #1  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2009, 7:30 AM
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Well, just to add my two cents to the parking debate.
I can understand both Policy Wonk's and Wooster's points of view, however I can only speak from experience.
I grew up with one parent living in Sunnyside and the other in Parkdale. The Parkdale house was suited, with a one bedroom suite in the basement. I have to say that although the house was ten minutes walk from the hospital and the suite was only ever rented to med students, never in the 12 plus years the suite has been operational, have tenants occupied the suite who didn't have at least one car. Additionally, many tenants would have boyfriends/girlfriends basically living there full time (although they had their own place to live), who also had a vehicle. Often the tenants of the one bedroom would be occupying two spaces on the street (even with strict parking permit policies in effect-trust me there are ways to get around them ).
In Sunnyside, I always found that contrary to some expectations, the closer I would get on my walk to the train in the morning, the more cars there would be on the street. While this was probably due in part to the fact that there were several low-rise buildings just before the Heartland cafe strip, the fact remains that outside the apartments, there were no parking regulations and I know for a fact that people used to drive their cars into Sunnyside in the morning, park there and then take the train (to work/school/whatever). So whereas many would think that residential areas within a certain radius of the train should be relatively car-free, I haven't found that to be the case in many inner-city areas.
Knowing this to be the case and having lived it, I can see Policy Wonk's point of view. While I also agree with Wooster that the ideal is to create less of an auto-dependency than what Calgary currently has, maybe the method needs to be reconsidered. For whatever reason, people seem to need to still have at least one vehicle.
Personally, when I'm in Calgary, every weekend possible I like to head out to the mountains/go to a park with the dog/etc. and so no matter how close I am to the core or transit, I would likely require a vehicle, even if I only drove it twice a week. Those 104 days/year justify its existence. I certainly would like to see auto-dependency reduced, I'm just not sure that this is the way to go about it, because certainly I know that many suite owners if they don't have to create a parking space, won't and they likely won't enforce that the only tenants they have are ones that don't own vehicles....and if they do, there's a huge probability that the tenant will lie and say they don't have one and then just park a few blocks away (this has also happened with tenants who had 2 vehicles and said they only had one).
Even though it might seem unfair to mandate that each household have a parking space in inner-city communities, it seems to balance out or alleviate some of the problems currently created by people who definitely abuse the current system, even if it seems to punish those that abide by the rules and are working towards less auto-dependency.
I would love to hear alternative solutions to this problem...
I can only speak from experience and while I fully understand that many apartment dwellers do not need or have vehicles, the reality I've seen in inner-city areas has been radically different.
Ok, end rant because the parking debate seems to have quelled anyways. Darn time zone difference.
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  #2  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2009, 2:12 PM
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My cousin went through the same experience when he lived in Toronto (he lived just a few blocks north of where you live). He took his car with him, but didn't have a place to park it. He ended up parking it at some place about 20 blocks away. He got in the habit of not using his car.

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I did. When I decided to move to Toronto, I sold my car, didn't get another one when I got here - don't need it - it's more of a liability than a benefit in the city. Lots of people who I know who grew up in the burbs around Toronto and then moved into the city no longer have a car. I'm not sure why you think this doesn't exist, it's quite common in big cities, which Calgary is quickly becoming. Even in Calgary, I have friends who grew up in Silver Springs like I did, drove all throughout university, and upon graduation with new jobs downtown moved to condos like Axxis in the west end, and Chocolate in the Beltline, or Bankview and gave up their cars. Maybe you hang around only "soulless suburban breeders" and no actual urbanites?
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  #3  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2009, 2:28 PM
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My two cents in the parking debate: I think a developer should have the option of putting as many....or as little a number of parking spaces in that they want.
The Five West east tower is a good example. The tower would have been 34 storeys instead of 27 if not for the issue of having one stall per unit. I believe in that location, people would still have bought units even if there wasn't a parking stall included.

As far as people who don't have a dedicated parking stall, parking their car somewhere down the street in front of someone else's place. I don't see it happening in the core, as just about every street downtown and in the Beltline already has controlled parking, by way of permit, or meters, etc.. any street that doesn't have regulated parking can easily get it.
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  #4  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2009, 2:46 PM
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Yes, I see your point for highrises Surrealplaces. Many downtown high-rise underground parking lots seem never to be more than 2-thirds full from what I've seen and I understand the developers' frustrations. My experience has to do with mainly inner-city, majority single family (with the odd 4-plex and low-rise buildings) communities.

Edit:
I just read the last portion of your comment and even though areas can be controlled with permits and such, there are ways to abuse the system, trust me. We had several Foothills Hospital staff stroll by and ask to purchase our visitor permits. There ARE people who abuse the system and I'm not sure that it's helping in areas where parking is scarce and in demand to allow for less than one stall per household. I'm just saying I'm not sure it helps an already cramped situation where people are figuring out ways to abuse the system, to further minimise the required parking per household.
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  #5  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2009, 2:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Plenitude View Post
Yes, I see your point for highrises Surrealplaces. Many downtown high-rise underground parking lots seem never to be more than 2-thirds full from what I've seen and I understand the developers' frustrations. My experience has to do with mainly inner-city, majority single family (with the odd 4-plex and low-rise buildings) communities.
There's no question that single-family dominated inner-city communities in Canada have parking problems. It happens all over the place. It's a different story altogether from more actually urban apartment dominated communities.
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  #6  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2009, 2:54 PM
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Yes, and didn't this whole long meandering debate begin about people who are suiting their homes in Sunnyside and not wanting to be forced to include an extra parking stall? That's what I was speaking to, I'm not sure how we got into the whole high-rise issue, perhaps I missed something.
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  #7  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2009, 5:30 PM
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I believe that parking requirements should be assessed individually based on the proposed use and associated parking demands. The number of spaces would depend on the area / neighbourhood, its proximity to employment / commercial districts within walking distance, transit facilities, etc.

The standard one size fits all parking requirements don't work well in urban neighbourhoods.
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  #8  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2009, 8:40 PM
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Originally Posted by CMD UW View Post
I believe that parking requirements should be assessed individually based on the proposed use and associated parking demands. The number of spaces would depend on the area / neighbourhood, its proximity to employment / commercial districts within walking distance, transit facilities, etc.

The standard one size fits all parking requirements don't work well in urban neighbourhoods.
That won't produce a result satisfactory to anybody because nobody wants to be realistic about what the potential needs actually are.

The one standard fits all works exceptionally well in urban neighbourhoods as it prevents the total gridlock that would come with the unsustainable increases in density.

Many urban communities were built long before the car became the dominant form of transportation, which is why you guys are so hot for them. That already puts them under strain as they can't support their present occupants vehicles all that well. The idea you can just parachute more and more people into those communities and take for granted they won't impose a greater burden on parking resources just because their suite might not have designated parking is insane.

You show me a building with half its parking unused, I will show you one that is overflowing. Needs change over time, planning to meet the bare minimum for the present day is insanity.
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  #9  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2009, 2:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Policy Wonk View Post
That won't produce a result satisfactory to anybody because nobody wants to be realistic about what the potential needs actually are.

The one standard fits all works exceptionally well in urban neighbourhoods as it prevents the total gridlock that would come with the unsustainable increases in density.

Many urban communities were built long before the car became the dominant form of transportation, which is why you guys are so hot for them. That already puts them under strain as they can't support their present occupants vehicles all that well. The idea you can just parachute more and more people into those communities and take for granted they won't impose a greater burden on parking resources just because their suite might not have designated parking is insane.

You show me a building with half its parking unused, I will show you one that is overflowing. Needs change over time, planning to meet the bare minimum for the present day is insanity.
I disagree, I think a formula could be devised to assist with determining the amount of 'required' parking to satisfy a particular use(s). This could be through parking studies, TAC standards, etc to establish an objective figure to work with.

As far as I'm concerned, increased congestion will force those to rethink the covenience of parking in a certain neighbourhood, building, etc. People will figure out how to get to their destination in some manner.

IMO - the older urban neighbourhoods in both Calgary and Edmonton do not have much of a parking / traffic issue whatsoever. Most are easy to get to and easy to find parking.
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  #10  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2009, 2:42 AM
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^The only old neighbourhoods in Edmonton with parking issues are Downtown and Whyte Ave. I'm sure it's similar for downtown Calgary and Beltline. But neighbourhoods like Oliver have a fair amount of activity and have very little parking problems. Neighbourhoods like Garneau, Alberta Avenue, and McCauley mostly aren't busy enough except for the main roads in their neighbourhoods (109St, 118Ave, and 97St respectively) just because there isn't enough activities. There aren't boat loads of festivals, attractions, jobs, parks, and high density residential just like in newer suburban neighbourhoods. Most of the people needing to park in most of the old neighbourhoods are people who live in the area or are visiting someone in the area. I'm sure that's true for Sunnyside, Mont Royal, and Inglewood in Calgary.
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  #11  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2009, 3:55 AM
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^The only old neighbourhoods in Edmonton with parking issues are Downtown and Whyte Ave. I'm sure it's similar for downtown Calgary and Beltline. But neighbourhoods like Oliver have a fair amount of activity and have very little parking problems. Neighbourhoods like Garneau, Alberta Avenue, and McCauley mostly aren't busy enough except for the main roads in their neighbourhoods (109St, 118Ave, and 97St respectively) just because there isn't enough activities. There aren't boat loads of festivals, attractions, jobs, parks, and high density residential just like in newer suburban neighbourhoods. Most of the people needing to park in most of the old neighbourhoods are people who live in the area or are visiting someone in the area. I'm sure that's true for Sunnyside, Mont Royal, and Inglewood in Calgary.
True for Mount Royal and Inglewood, but definitely not Sunnyside. Sunnyside/Hillhurst being just a pedestrian bridge away from downtown, really needs parking control measures.
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  #12  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2009, 5:16 PM
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I don't know anybody who has moved to an urban area and then ceased driving - hell I know people who drive from their downtown condo to their downtown office.
My boyfriend got rid of his car when he moved in with me. Our house has a three car garage, with one car parked in it, which we share. The only reason sharing one car is possible is because we walk to our jobs downtown and live in a neighbourhood which has most amenities we need within walking or biking distance, as well as a C-train station nearby. We only drive our car on weekends to go to the mountains and maybe one night during the week.
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Old Posted Apr 20, 2009, 6:05 PM
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My boyfriend got rid of his car when he moved in with me. Our house has a three car garage, with one car parked in it, which we share. The only reason sharing one car is possible is because we walk to our jobs downtown and live in a neighbourhood which has most amenities we need within walking or biking distance, as well as a C-train station nearby. We only drive our car on weekends to go to the mountains and maybe one night during the week.
Well. He still has a car... the one that the both of you share.

Not exactly a huge sacrifice.

My wife and I live deep in the burbs and only have one car. We have no need for two.
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  #14  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2009, 6:12 PM
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Well. He still has a car... the one that the both of you share.

Not exactly a huge sacrifice.

My wife and I live deep in the burbs and only have one car. We have no need for two.
If we lived deep in the burbs, we would have two cars, as we both work anywhere between 10 to 18 hour a day, which does not lend itself to car pooling, and would not want to spend an extra 2 to 3 hours a day on public transit when we spend so much time in the office. Our car usage has therefore been reduced by one car. If we didn't ski, hike or camp as often as we can, we wouldn't need a car at all.
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  #15  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2009, 6:31 PM
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Thanks for the new thread mersar!

Now I'll weigh in. I think Wooster and Policy Wonk (and others) covered the opposing ways to view this issue fairly well already, so I'll just touch on anecdotal and personal thoughts. Although I border on what some might call "anti-car," I think Policy Wonk makes a good point that, even though trips by car may be reduced, people are still going to have one (and thus be in need of space to put it) if only for the three or four, or more road trips out of the city a year, or the once-a-week crosstown trip. Basically where renting isn't economical enough, or just a little too inconvenient for the number of times you would be doing so.

I think it will be interesting when redevelopment and basement suites become more common in communities with lots of garages/driveways. A lot of people keep a bunch of crap in their garage, thereby limiting their parking to the street or driveway. When I lived in Queensland, I lived on a street full of duplexes where there were quite a few secondary suites popping up. Everyone had a detached garage, but the owners (whether they lived on site or not) kept a bunch of crap in the garages, and thus street parking got pretty crowded.

Another thing. I wonder what kind of market there is for say suburban condo/townhouse complex development with surface parking to rent out your assigned stall to a neighbour if you don't own a car.
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  #16  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2009, 7:58 PM
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The parking requirements could certainly still use some tweaking. For example, Westwinds Superstore has AT LEAST double the parking that it actually needs, I can only assume they built the parking lot only roughly as big as it needed to be. This creates a huge setback that takes the superstore out of walking distance for a lot more people.

I think that parking requirements are made and adjusted because of one bad apple sometimes. Some larger churches had problems with people parking in the community, and the land use bylaw requirement changed last year from 1 stall per every 5 people of capacity, to one stall for every 4 people of capacity. The old LUB at 1 for every 5 probobly worked for 95% of churches out there, but now all new churches will have to build extra parking.

I've mentioned it before, but it was already hard enough for churches to find land in communites so that at least some of the people could walk. Now it will be just about impossible. New churches are going to be built only in Industrial areas away from any residences, creating in effect, a sulf fulfilling prophecy. Increased parking requirements lead to a situation where more people will need to drive.

I found out the the LUB in place in the early 70s only required one stall for every twenty people of attandance (for a church). I 'm working on plans for a church where the current building was approved for 270 people attending, and there was only room for about 10 cars (the old drawings showed 14 or 16 or something like that, but there wasn't that many built). I had to take the DP to the SDAB to get their new renovation approved for a maximum of 200 people with "only" 32 stalls (50 stalls required), a plan which includes paving over most of the nice grass space they have on their property. The plan reviewers aren't allowed to take on street parking into account - The church I am working with could easily (and currently does) park 20 or more cars on the street - all in spots that don't "belong to a different property", i.e. in front of a house.

So, when the renovation is done, the maximum amount of people required will be only 200, when they could probobly fit 250 or more, and easily park the cars for that many people without any complaints from neighbours.

Meanwhile, at Centre Street Church, you can drive around the massive parking lot for 15 minutes without seeing even one empty space on a sunday morning, and a lot of people park on the street too. Fortunately for them, most of the businesses in the area aren't open to care on Sunday mornings.
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  #17  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2009, 5:15 PM
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^ The church issue is a bit different, as the policy helps to get the non taxable church off of valuable land, and move it to the lowest value land possible. Communities used to zone reserve space for churches if my recollection of the Calgary project is correct but now not so much.

With so many religions it is hard to accommodate them all within walking distance. When it was catholic, or mainline protestant for 95% of the population, it certainly was a bit more straight forward.
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